Liquid textures that you think are X but are really Y

Snakes said:

This is far too complex for me to comprehend.

Nukage bad, Lava really bad.

Nomad said:

I noticed that in a least one map during my recent replaying of E2 and E3. I wtf'd at Doomguy being afraid to get wet.

Also, while we're sort of on this subject: what's everyone's opinion on blood pools? A friend and fellow doomer claims that blood should always be damaging, but I think that's a silly idea. Standing in blood is no more damaging than water; though I suppose it could be argued that the blood is from demons and is acidic or something. I'm comfortable with saying it's a sometimes thing, but not always damaging.

All liquids must damage. It's classic video game logic. Water = death. Also, flashy electrical pads and lit up MARBFAC's must also hurt. And fire. The more painful floors the better, I say.

KiiiYiiiKiiiA said:

And Lava should always do maximum damage, (10 - 20%) while lava should always do minimum damage (2 - 5%)...

Wait, what?

Judging by your recent post, i assume you mean "nukage" should always do minimum damage. Having lava give off strict multi-variable damage is an awkward statement.

If lava should do 2-5% damage and Lava should do 10-20% damage, then LaVa should deal 17-35% and LAVA should deal 32-65% damage...
._.

NaturalTvventy said:

All liquids must damage. It's classic video game logic. Water = death.

It's death because you can sink in it. I don't think ankle deep water should do anything.

Also I'm all for damaging blood. The only levels I've seen where blood wasn't damaging was in PWADs. I think brown water should not be damaging though.

Doom2 map28 has a little bit of non-damaging blood, but it damages elsewhere.

What I find confusing is how the red animating crackle rocks frequently don't damage at all in Doom2. Their appearance suggests they ought to be far more threatening than the blood or sludge.

40oz said:

I think brown water should not be damaging though.

But that other brown stuff, the almost shiny-looking version, is definitely something toxic.

Probably sewage. In which case it should only damage if you're already hurt, infections and all. :P

I remember poking around doom.wad during DTWID, searching for liquids and damage values, and while blood, nukage, and water were inconsistent, I'm pretty sure that lava always did 10/20% damage, without fail. Can't remember whether or not I checked E4, though.

In my head, I always assume that nukage does 5%, blood does 10%, and lava does 20%, since those were the "usual" values I remember from those days.

Another one I'm surprised nobody's mentioned yet: I always feel that DOOR3 should be perma-locked. That one at the beginning of E1M1 doesn't open, so none of the others should open either. It's got a darn padlock on it. :P

In Thy Flesh Consumed there are quite some immersive maps with red-orange liquid that does only 10 damage. Probably it was done that way so as not to look too red, and because you're likely to run through them without a suit.

Xaser said:

It's got a darn padlock on it. :P

Doom Manual said:

As you walk through the main entrance of the base, you hear animal-like growls echoing throughout the distant corridors. They know you're here. There's no turning back now.

And now we all understand why.

Why can't you go back? Is that door locked or what? No, the truth is different. You can't go back now because

there's no turning back now.

oh, man...

What about inescapable pits with a solid floor? I've seen some that do damage (maybe to simulate impact, or spikes in the ground), and some that just leave you hanging so you have to noclip out (after checking every wall for secret doors). Hexen handled this stuff a lot more convincingly.

40oz said:

Also I'm all for damaging blood. The only levels I've seen where blood wasn't damaging was in PWADs.

Umm...ever play The Plutonia Experiment, dude? Try MAP 12. Tons of non-damaging blood.

Having blood cause damage, in my opinion, is rather stupid, and I'm glad the Casali brothers saw fit to make copious use of non-damaging sanguine pools. This isn't Aliens. This idea that demon-blood is somehow "acidic" or otherwise hurtful falls flat, simply because Doomguy never takes damage when he SSGs or RLs a pack of monsters. Blood and gore goes flying everywhere, so if it were damaging, he'd take some damage almost every time.

Vordakk said:

Umm...ever play The Plutonia Experiment, dude? Try MAP 12. Tons of non-damaging blood.

Having blood cause damage, in my opinion, is rather stupid, and I'm glad the Casali brothers saw fit to make copious use of non-damaging sanguine pools. This isn't Aliens. This idea that demon-blood is somehow "acidic" or otherwise hurtful falls flat, simply because Doomguy never takes damage when he SSGs or RLs a pack of monsters. Blood and gore goes flying everywhere, so if it were damaging, he'd take some damage almost every time.

Or maybe it is what lies beneath the blood that does the damage. The last poor saps/hellspawn to have stood there too long melted into a bloody mess that now takes up the pit.

40oz said:

It's death because you can sink in it. I don't think ankle deep water should do anything.

This begs the question of just how deep all these liquids actually are. Is it always only ankle-deep regardless? What about maps like e3m6? That's like an ocean, or at least a lake, of lava. Further proof that Doomguy is Jesus, banishing demons and walking on water?

I am always kind of bugged when PWADs have crates or what not in water with the appearance of being partially submerged, as this does make it seem like Doomguy is indeed walking on water.

Six said:

Wait, what?

Judging by your recent post, i assume you mean "nukage" should always do minimum damage. Having lava give off strict multi-variable damage is an awkward statement.

Ooops. Wasn't concentrating as hard as I should have been when I typed that.

Just to clarify, the general convention that I follow is:

Water: non damaging.
Nukage: minimum damage (2% - 5%)
Blood or brown slime: medium damage (5% - 10%)
Lava: maximum damage (10 - 20%)

The only exception to this is sometimes blood or brown slime can be non damaging, but this is situationally dependent. A good level will make such things consistent so the player is able to work out these unwritten 'rules'. But I think water should always be non damaging and nukage and lava should always be damaging.

KiiiYiiiKiiiA said:

A good level will make such things consistent so the player is able to work out these unwritten 'rules'.

In a single level, this stuff must be consistent, yes, but in a level set? I can see your point, but I like to find out the hard way if it`s damaging or not, hehe.

*running around on bridges and whatnot*
"fuuuuuck, I`m owerwhelmed, I have to retreat down into that nukage! I`m fucked!"
*jumps down*
"Hey, it`s non damaging, who`s the boss? Awww yeeeeeahhhh!"

NaturalTvventy said:

This begs the question of just how deep all these liquids actually are. Is it always only ankle-deep regardless? What about maps like e3m6? That's like an ocean, or at least a lake, of lava. Further proof that Doomguy is Jesus, banishing demons and walking on water?

I am always kind of bugged when PWADs have crates or what not in water with the appearance of being partially submerged, as this does make it seem like Doomguy is indeed walking on water.

Conversely, I'm kind of bugged when wads have crates and walls not appear partially submerged in the water, as not only does it seem like Doomguy is floating atop the water but the entire map is :P

esselfortium said:

Doom2 map28 has a little bit of non-damaging blood, but it damages elsewhere.

What I find confusing is how the red animating crackle rocks frequently don't damage at all in Doom2. Their appearance suggests they ought to be far more threatening than the blood or sludge.

I'm pretty sure the "river" in MAP15 damages ;-)

Mr. T said:

I'm pretty sure the "river" in MAP15 damages ;-)

I've actually interpreted that as the earth opening up via earthquake and revealing hell's influence beneath.

I never said it didn't sometimes damage, just that it was very inconsistent. The Courtyard's gstone maze is one easy example of non-damaging cracklefloor in Doom2.

Vordakk said:

Umm...ever play The Plutonia Experiment, dude? Try MAP 12. Tons of non-damaging blood.

Having blood cause damage, in my opinion, is rather stupid, and I'm glad the Casali brothers saw fit to make copious use of non-damaging sanguine pools. This isn't Aliens. This idea that demon-blood is somehow "acidic" or otherwise hurtful falls flat, simply because Doomguy never takes damage when he SSGs or RLs a pack of monsters. Blood and gore goes flying everywhere, so if it were damaging, he'd take some damage almost every time.

Maybe that isn't blood.

Demon blood is actually tomato soup...It all makes sense now.

I remember rationalising to myself when I was younger that the blood hurt because it was full of leeches and insects and other nasty things too small to see. Still stands up reasonably well as an explanation now (if you must have one) as you can say they're hellish insects.

Nomad said:

I noticed that in a least one map during my recent replaying of E2 and E3. I wtf'd at Doomguy being afraid to get wet.

Also, while we're sort of on this subject: what's everyone's opinion on blood pools? A friend and fellow doomer claims that blood should always be damaging, but I think that's a silly idea. Standing in blood is no more damaging than water; though I suppose it could be argued that the blood is from demons and is acidic or something. I'm comfortable with saying it's a sometimes thing, but not always damaging.

maybe the blood is cursed or something ;) ,there's no reason to slaughter such masses of demons just to fill pools with their blood. rather the blood of people who have gone to hell...

with acid and lava it's obvious, but blood, or water?

anyway, if mappers would only stick to a rule if texture X is damaging or not. but it's mighty irritating if it varies from map to map.

I think the blood is supposed to be boiling.

esselfortium said:

I think the blood is supposed to be boiling.

You'd see steam rising from the pools if that were true :)

Well...no, no you wouldn't, because Doom wasn't exactly heavy on the particle effects. By your logic, the textures with the vomiting demon mouths should be causing splashes, so obviously there isn't really blood flowing out of their mouths!

I think the smiley face indicates humor.