The DWmegawad Club plays: Alien Vendetta

By the way, Aqfaq has a 2:40 tyson of map13. No, not two minutes and forty seconds, but two hours and forty minutes!

Map20 main problema is monster placement and repetitiveness, IMO. It's probably more fun on HNTR with less meat in the way. Still, with a proper pacing and monster placement could've been a superb level.

Map 20 Misri Halek:

Again, like the first time I played this map on continuous, the level has managed to keep me glued to the screen for 59 minutes.
The soundtrack combined with the aesthetics of the inside of the pyramid creates an almost hypnotic effect on me.
Aesthetically not much to say, the use of lights/shadows is awesome, it seems to be in a true pyramid also the ashwall lava zone is particolarly impressive from this point of view.
The author is good in make tension on the player, apart from the visuals and the persistent gloomy atmosphere, also with the gameplay not providing armor for about half of the map, and with two early, almost deadly, ambushes: the first arch-vile and the hitscanners trap in the hellish cave (although this can be circumvented). Another tricky moment is the first cyberdemon for which the best tactic for me is to rush him with the bfg.
I agree that part of the mountain area goes a little too long and a teleporter on the lava would not hurt, but, the tomb on top of the mountain is fucking great. I like maps where you have to reach a building in top of a cliff like for example in cc2 map 32.
The switch hunting at the end when we return in the pyramid (nice touch btw) was'nt particularly difficult to figure out the first time I played it, and this time either. The revenant ambush after the yellow key almost cost me the run due to my fault tho.
Graphically (musically is on par with other 1-2 maps) this is, in my opinion, the best level of the set, and even though it is not my favorite map of AV one can not deny the greatness.

this thread inspired me to replay map20. last time i hadn't played much doom yet, so the map was extra spooky and threatening cuz i was a noob. The prime time to play this map is when you are new to doom, because you are forced to crawl through a tight dungeon while threatened by Revenants and Archviles that pop out of traps at every other turn. This is probably one of the best maps for the slow-and-steady playstyle doomers who like to soak it all in, and for those who aren't yet numb to fear of revenants and archviles, nor jaded by barons.

I got a bit burnt out at the spiral mountain section. This was either because my coffee-buzz-rampage started wear off or maybe because that area had more meat in it.

I also don't mind occasional barons, you can create an exercise of squeezing past them, or getting in close and personal and dodging in close-quarters while you whittle them down.

Still a cool map; long though.

I've finally caught up to where you guys are! For a first timer... whew, it's been a hell of a haul. (MegaWad experience - TNT, Plutonia and barely remember going through Memento Mori 1 & 2 almost 15 years ago now.)

Couple weeks ago I discovered the beauty of Sunlust through a blog I read that pointed out the Cacowards and then I stumbled across this thread while poking around the forums. It's been fascinating learning the terminology I've never heard of and reading veteran thoughts and analysis on design and enemy placement. Terms like "slaughtermap" and concepts like "pistol start" are small examples of how green I am. It's been a blast!

These maps so far have been pretty random (I understand AV has quite the interesting release history) but my favorites thus far have been...
10: Toxic Touch (Artsy as hell and not much thinking required. I dig. Great music!)
11: Nemesis (Love the exploratory concept of a cave system and an ancient temple.)
16: Mutual Destruction (Balls to the wall! Love it. Run circles screaming right off the bat.)
18: Lake Poison (Thought it would be another adventure map but then the sewage halls with 100's of imps and the last slaughter room told me otherwise. Did I count 8 Spiderdemons or was it 10?? Hahaha, WTF?!)
31: Killer Colours (Really enjoyed the design and color schemes. It felt like what a secret level should be.)

Map 20 Misri Halek: Should be a favorite of mine as well considering I seem to favor the adventure maps but I really got bored double shotgunning the 30th Baron and/or Hell Knight in a cramped hallway. Plus, I got suuuuuper lost at the end and it started to get annoying.

Glad the music here was good because that helped numb the pain. I really can't stand it when maps reuse original Doom 1 or 2 music. It makes me angry for some reason. It's just not right.

Best part of the map (besides the overall awesome Egyptian design) was probably the winding rocky climb to the top. Nothing like dancing with Revenants at the edges of a cliff!

The first Cyberdemon was pretty fun too. Falling out of a hole in the wall to be greeted by him was a shock. I ran for my life leaving him behind to roam the halls for quite a while until I got back to him.

Deadwing said:

Map20 main problema is monster placement and repetitiveness, IMO. It's probably more fun on HNTR with less meat in the way. Still, with a proper pacing and monster placement could've been a superb level.

map20 is Bloodstain in one map form

MAP21 - One Flew Over the Caco’s Nest
ZDoom, UV - Pistol Start, KIS(%): 100/100/100

An opener for the third episode of Alien Vendetta. It's highly linear and straightforward with continuous corridor fights. The gameplay is disappointing for this megawad's standard, but this level is not the worst level in this wad, at least. Like other previous levels, a good architectural design is a nice way to decorate a linear progression. And I must say that I liked the overall design with vanilla textures. It's a shame that this level doesn't have any height variation, though. It's like playing Wolfenstein 3D or classic Rise of the Triad(at least this game has GADs). And yes, I really don't like the damaging blood pit in front of the exit.

MAP20 - “Misri Halek” by Kim André Malde

This is one of those maps that make you feel like you have lived in them for a period of your life. A very long and winding path, and just when you think the journey is ending it starts again with different scenery. Its very much a map that makes you play by its own rules, one of which is to grind through endless corridors of meat. The fighting is made pretty easy by the amount of corners to duck behind, and after while the music and the relentless progression make you enter a kind of zen state where killing the monsters is just something you do in order to see whats round the next corner. Despite the simplicity of the circumstances a lot of work has been done with details and lighting to keep the maze looking good. Some of the switch hunting and backtracking is a little obscure, but then this is the bowels of a pyramid after all so I can live with that.

I can see why its a bit of a marmite map, I find I have to adjust my frame of mind to get the most out of it. I try not to think about the optimally designed doom experience we are all used to now, and imagine myself infiltrating an enemy sanctuary that couldn't care less about me and my problems.

Map21
Although this map is another instance corridoring down corridors to corridorville, it at least relatively short and doesn’t require backtracking, which puts it several steps ahead of the tedium that came before it, in my eyes. Sure it’s rather flat and lacks open spaces - both missteps in a map that promises caco action (not that it actually delivers it) - but at least it’s over too quickly to really grate.

Not especially good or interesting, but after Misery Halek I’ll take it.

Demtor said:

I've finally caught up to where you guys are! For a first timer... whew, it's been a hell of a haul. (MegaWad experience - TNT, Plutonia and barely remember going through Memento Mori 1 & 2 almost 15 years ago now.)

Hey, welcome! I think AV is a pretty good starting point if you're getting back into pwads. Gotta say, it must be kinda crazy to see where Doom's at if you're fresh to the community—especially considering the state custom wads (like Sunlust) are in now. We've definitely gone a little crazy with this humble FPS haha.

MAP20: What stuck with me the most when finishing Alien Vendetta for the first time was undeniably “Misri Halek”—I adored Malde’s pyramid-spelunking romp and it kindled a desire for adventure maps I didn’t know I had. From its atmospheric opening to its fiery hot REDROCK core, I had a blast while playing through it and always wanted to return some day.

So, how does it hold up?

It’s great! The pyramid is just as gloomy and somber as I remembered, its claustrophobic tunnels rotten with walls of meat for Doomguy to chew through. Nearly every time a section is about to wear out its welcome the map shifts in style, thrusting you into the cavern section,or bringing you back into the pyramid to dive further inside, or throwing you out onto a perilous gray cliffside. There’s an excellent amount of non-orthogonal angles and the usage of primarily new textures really makes the map pop compared against the rest of the set. It’s tight, thematic, and occasionally tricky at parts (those cyberdemon fights—yikes!), which is just the way I like it. What easily steals my heart in the map is the awesome use of shadow casting in every open room… man, it just makes the map feel so moody! The fact that this all works in vanilla Doom (!!!) is icing on the cake.

However, it’s far from perfect. MAP20 is hamstrung by a number of design choices, mainly 1) confusing progression, 2) a mostly linear path, 3) only one secret in a 50 minute map, and 4) so many nobles congesting the hallways. I don’t exactly fault anyone for disliking the map—MAP19 admittedly played better than it, even if I was lukewarm on the experience—but I admire “Misri Halek” for its guts and commitment to a single idea. If more branches were open, secrets were added, switch hunts toned down, and shells were replaced with rockets and cells most of the complaints would vanish I presume. Even something like the cliffside can become pretty fun when you’re packing 600 cell and need to BFG your way up the mountain, always trying to optimize your blast against the hordes of HKs and revs (it was mostly that but with a bit too much SSG action thrown in). In spite of its noxious flaws, I still can’t help but stand in awe of it; Malde was a master.

antares031 said:

MAP21 - One Flew Over the Caco’s Nest
ZDoom, UV - Pistol Start, KIS(%): 100/100/100

An opener for the third episode of Alien Vendetta. It's highly linear and straightforward with continuous corridor fights. The gameplay is disappointing for this megawad's standard, but this level is not the worst level in this wad, at least. Like other previous levels, a good architectural design is a nice way to decorate a linear progression. And I must say that I liked the overall design with vanilla textures. It's a shame that this level doesn't have any height variation, though. It's like playing Wolfenstein 3D or classic Rise of the Triad(at least this game has GADs). And yes, I really don't like the damaging blood pit in front of the exit.

Pablo Dictter (who designed that map) primarily made Wolf 3D maps, so that's why. i was in the Wolf3D modding community when i was younger and knew of his work, so i was really surprised to see his name there the first time i played through AV. the funny thing is i had some of the same complaints about his Wolf3D maps - very decorated, but too linear.

21: This is actually just a big nice detailed corridor. It isn't very
much different from map 20, but it is way shorter. Enemies are just
there and probably won't offer much challenge on continuous-play.
There's sometimes traps, especially one that raises bars behind you,
which something I'm not really a fan. If you want to lock the player,
I like more to use dropdowns, so the player will know beforehand that
he won't be able to retreat. 5.5/10.

Damn, I fell behind. Here s a few, short comments on each map from where I fell off the wagon.

map10: a bit too tight in general for my likings, but it looks amazing, and has a great atmosphere. Gameplay is not that great, but it has things to kill while I explore these awesome sewers.

map11: I was always a fan of this map, and I still am. Looking at it with critical eyes now, the texturing could have been a bit better/more varied (but I think maybe the monotonous texturing actually might be a thing I like? Gives me this old school feeling which I like). The cave parts looks nice but are a bit tedious to travel through. Gameplay? I dunno. OK I guess.

map12: this map gives me the old school vibes, bot not necessarily the good vibes. Reminds me somewhat of a Doom 1 map (the music also helps with this). It lacks in visuals and atmosphere. The gameplay is OK - there are monsters to kill, but far from great. I really like the YK/chaingunners/BFG secret. I guess I just dont think it fits as an AV-map, but then again it goes well with the next few maps.

map13: I remember really digging this map back in da dayz. Now I found it somewhat tedious, but still cool. Lots of monsters, but its somewhat tedious to blast through them all. Also, it has too many crates, lol.

map14: Now we are talking. Always been a fan, still a fan. Dont really know why to be honest. Its kinda like the past few maps, but something hits the right nerve in thins one. I always liked the simple black starry sky in E2, and its a must have in this map I think. Not a big fan of the midi though.

map15: Digging the looks and weird settings in this map, especially after the beginning areas with lava, which isn't that interesting. Gameplay-wise this map is up there imo. Could have had a better midi.

map16: I like it. Lots of different settings/themes all in one map, old school style, but it looks good. Lots of action (especially if playing aggressively).

map17: OK gameplay, cool setting/good looks. Bad midi.

map18: One of my fav maps. I LOVE the midi. Its so good it can make all maps good, but it works really good in this starry night epic adventure of death and killing in epic environments.

map19: Alway found this map to have a weird and mystical vibe to it because of the setting/environments. As much as I like this midi, I think this map would have done even better with something more mystical/low key music. Cool stuff.

map20: Th infamous Misri Halek. What can I say. I think one should just appreciate this map as a work of art. The gameplay does get a bit tedious and I always get fuuucking lost, but I dont care. Epic stuff, pure work of art, good music, exceptional atmosphere.

map21: linear and flat room-after-room map. Reminds me of some sort of dungeon board game. Should def have been dropped from final release.

Map21: A short level is really spot on after the long adventure we just had though I don't think this map is particularly good. I do like some thing about the details but it's a completely flat sequence of rooms. I don't really understand the door that closes in front of you, and the stimpacks put in the 20% damaging lava. Rather unremarkable work.

ella guro said:

Pablo Dictter (who designed that map) primarily made Wolf 3D maps, so that's why. i was in the Wolf3D modding community when i was younger and knew of his work, so i was really surprised to see his name there the first time i played through AV. the funny thing is i had some of the same complaints about his Wolf3D maps - very decorated, but too linear.

MAP21 - “One Flew Over the Caco’s Nest” by Pablo Dictter

well, this shows ^^

very linear, no height variation, basically one corridor. simple gameplay with enemies just being in front of the player. anyway, it gives one a berserk pack to avoid wasting ammo on demons. i would have used the berserk more if there weren't the damn support beams everywhere.

we're starting with episode 3 here, nice hellish style. i found a soulsphere behind a tech panel and a plasma gun behind an illuminated wall, and didn't bother with more.

MAP21 O.F.O.T.C.N.

Coming off the heels of Misri Halek is a map that, is surprisingly the same thing, a full-on linear showcase. Except this one is more considerably scaled down so it is one of the shorter maps. The mapper emphasizes cacos in the title of the map, but there's worse combat in the other enemies than those blobules. Again, no major areas to pinpoint, but I personally can take a breather map after a long map any day. Good details.

Map 21 - One Flew Over the Caco's Nest

The look of this map was always really peculiar to me, and I don't mean the lack of height variation. If the ending of Misri Halek was the portal into hell, this map always struck me as being part of a former human outpost that, naturally, ended up being taken over and corrupted by the legions of hell. Real Shores of Hell stuff...

Or summat.

Anyway, this one is a quick breather of a map, which is nice being on the heels of the last one. That being said, it is definitely one of the weaker maps in the game despite, again, the mood it presents - the problem with this one is the total lack of height variation at play and the generally rote nature of the combat on a continuous playthrough. It makes a lot of sense that the author of this map was apparently known for doing Wolf 3d work, because it shows in how the map is laid out.

As for the combat, people will be all 'well what's so different about this from Misri Halek?' That map was a lot better at presenting monsters in your path and utilizing traps to harry the player, even if, in very broad strokes, it seems like the same basic concept. The problem with this map on a continous playthrough is that you have enough ammo to just blow through everything and do what you need to get to the exit; the only time the map really shines is on a pistol start, when ammo is juuuuust stingy enough to force you into using the beserk pack as much as you can. I can deal with the general lack of height variation (even if I think the map's texture work does a good enough job of communicating that this is a corrupted outpost) if the map was better balanced toward both playing styles. Alas, it isn't.

Map 21: One Flew Over the Cacos Nest

This is a somewhat typical map 21, known these days for ammo starvation and Berserk-oriented gameplay. Since there is no death exit after Misri Halek, map21 should be extremely trivial for anyone on continuous and packing a full arsenal. This is a major design oversight, and I can't imagine everyone and their mother playing Pistol Start back in 2002 compared to the style's current popularity. It's a decent map when starting from scratch though, since health and ammo is rather sparse and the majority is spent on punching Demons and Spectres. Not particularly challenging or memorable but I do like the fleshy detailing combined with the green marble theme.

map21

The most notable thing about this map is the face:



Apart from that it is quite forgettable. Stimpacks on 20% damaging floor are quite odd and silly. Even the exit requires a run over 20% damaging floor. It would be hilarious if someone saved at that point, but I have zero sympathy for people who save with low health. :)

A Brad Spencer map is up next, so something to look forward to after these doldrums.

rileymartin said:

... I can't imagine everyone and their mother playing Pistol Start back in 2002 compared to the style's current popularity....

What? Pistol-starting was a thing back in vanilla when you forgot to save on the level you died on. That alone was enough to make most Doomers appreciate the fine balancing of a map on pistol-start. Given that this is a vanilla megawad, I'm sure that it was both designed with and played by many with pistol-starts in mind.

MAP19: Alien Resurrection
39:31 | 100% Everything

Ahh, this one. What a weird level. I should probably say, a Weird level. Like, just the vibe it gives you is uncanny. From the very start it looks like a trappy level, and it plays that way for the duration. When I finally got to the end, I was just missing a secret, and it had me stumped for a bit: Did it have something to do with that non-opening yellow door? (And what was up with that?) Or that flashing, angled trap face near the exit, that I was positive had to be a shootable switch? Nah, I did a circuit of the whole thing, and the secret was right at the very start. Hunh. Fun map, despite some oddities.

ella guro said:

Pablo Dictter (who designed that map) primarily made Wolf 3D maps, so that's why. i was in the Wolf3D modding community when i was younger and knew of his work, so i was really surprised to see his name there the first time i played through AV. the funny thing is i had some of the same complaints about his Wolf3D maps - very decorated, but too linear.

Ah, that explains the structural design of that level. Thanks for the info. :)

rileymartin said:

Map 21: One Flew Over the Cacos Nest
I can't imagine everyone and their mother playing Pistol Start back in 2002 compared to the style's current popularity.

I thought I'd expand on what Fonze had to say. There are basically 2 issues, really. 1) How popular was pistol-start back in the day? 2) Were mapsets tested for pistol start at the dawn of Doom time?

On the first question, you may well be right that pistol starting wasn't as popular as it is now. However, it was still done by many players and obviously by the elite players who had to qualify for Doom Honorific Titles. On the second question, I can say that we on The Macintosh Team tested each and every map in Realm of Chaos on continuous and pistol start and on every difficulty setting except Nightmare and maybe ITYTD, and this was in 1996. We couldn't qualify for Doom Honorific Titles on the Mac because we could neither play nor record demos, but I'm guessing we tested the maps on pistol start primarily out of respect for the speedrunners and UV-Maxers on the PC side. We definitely knew about them. By contrast, MacDoomers generally played continuous because we had no incentive to do otherwise.

Given that some of AV's mappers were speedrunners, this mapset was obviously geared for pistol start, whereas Requiem probably wasn't, given a couple of its infamous ammo starvation maps. If only we had a handy time machine to conduct a poll of players from back in the day. ;)

BTW, I've played up through Map16, including Map31, I just haven't had time to do write-ups. I'll try catching up once I get my damned mapset fully prepped for its next beta.

If either Requiem or MM2 had continuous testing, I'm not aware of it. Most testing was done on a level by level basis, as they were submitted.

Capellan said:

If either Requiem or MM2 had continuous testing, I'm not aware of it. Most testing was done on a level by level basis, as they were submitted.

Was there a defined testing team for Requiem? IIRC, wasn't Map22 the one pistol starters in the thread complained about as not having enough ammo? Was the map properly tested or was it always intended to be a real bastard that way?

SteveD said:

Was there a defined testing team for Requiem?

Not that I know of. Mappers (presumably) tested their maps before uploading them, and everyone was free to play them as they were shared, but about the only map I recall getting much commentary was map23, because it had an IoS.

^^Okay, that sounds like what I expected.

MAP 20 MISRI HALEK.
I think this map is a master piece, good way to finish the borring space episode of this megawad (okay not so borring but it is i like the least of the 3 episodes of this wad). The first time i play this wad i found it amazing, i coulndt stop playing the map, everything is well combined, the archiqueture and lighting details are perfect, if u need to learn how make detailed map, this is your model to follow.
But... The bad thing is that u cant play this map above 3 times in your life, its to big the map and confuse, and it took me a lot of time, u can be playing this map 1 hour at least!
To playing this time the map20 i needed brutaldoom(actually this map is great with this mod!) but i cant lose another one and half hour playing Misri Halek.
4,5/5 stars.

MAP22 - Rubicon
ZDoom, UV - Pistol Start, KIS(%): 100/100/100

A simple level with some tough moments. Overall layout and details don't stand out, but at least not bad. Two monster waves in the middle of hub room were a little bit disappointing; two waves are totally identical with same monsters. Wouldn't be better if the second wave had different kind of monsters? You can even skip the waves by ignoring gargoyle switches, but I guess it's for speedrunners. Not a bad level, but I'm sorry to say that it isn't memorable. At least the music from Descent is cool, though.

Map22
It’s pretty clear that linearity was not seen as an issue for the AV team. With the exception of one optional room, Brad’s last map in the set never gives you more than one option for moving forward, and is more or less a series of small to medium-sized set pieces strung together with some very minor incidental combat.

Not all of these set pieces work all that well. The mancubi in the big red stone cavern are completely harmless for instance (in fact, they’re much more danger to the other monsters than to you). The map also feels very much like it was designed purely for pistol start, without much consideration for continuous play.

On the other hand, the map has some nice looking areas (the blood ceiling aside) and it doesn’t overstay its welcome. Curious that episode 3 has been comparatively laid back so far, compared to the latter episode 3 maps. I’m not averse to the idea of peaks and troughs in difficulty though (in fact I think it’s good), so this is not a complaint. I’m sure things will escalate again soon enough, in any case.