Ultimate Doom “In Name Only” - [Limit Removing] - Artist for titlepic/M-Doom etc needed

This map had a super-interesting progression and fancy use of useless keys as a means of denoting progression/location. I really liked the way the map led me around, starting with the beginning's clever reuse of areas, to the RK area's cool overall design, as well as the amazing, inspiring MC Escher room, and then continuing towards the end, eventually doubling back for that YK at the end for the not-so-secret exit.

I also liked that the oppressiveness was ingrained so heavily into the map's design; it worked super well here and also helped to tie together so many tiny and occasionally one-off facets of the design.

Ok to go through the map more thoroughly:

 - As I said I didn't like the pyramid overall; I understand its reasoning, but still don't like it, or the imp on the ledge. So much time on resets!

 - Top of pyramid encounter was tricky to figure out and still is kinda tight but all around its good.

 - BK encounter was great fun interspersed with picking my pride up off the floor and crying.

 - Cybie1 was a nice, tight encounter but I was too scared to rocket the bulls and aggro the survivors, so I made it a little tougher on myself than I suppose the intended strategy was.

 - Approaching the RK area was grand

 - Crushers were super easy; I made them tougher on myself with my preconception that they'd be tough like your MH19 collab with rd. Would have been broken-easy if I had used freelook, especially if playing on GlBoom+ where you can look straight up, but all-in-all that wasn't even close to necessary as the candles were a nice pattern.

 - MC Escher room. Yes. Fucking yes thank you for this, but at the same time wtf on the doors? No, not that they're present and require switches during a fairly tight, timed platforming segment, but that they don't close on reset. Like I can accept and like the positioning on the close line for the first door, I can accept no line on the second door, but on the final 3, whats the point in having 3 doors/switches if they aren't gonna close on reset??????????????? I'm so confused; did I miss something, or is this not working as it should, or is it just 'accessible?' To me, this section would have been far better if hitting all switches were required, or if it played as-is, but the 3 top doors reset on fail. That was a total let-down, and I'm sad I didn't persevere on at least hitting all 3 top switches each attempt that somehow got that far. I feel like my win on this was cheated.

 - Likewise with the following part after the RK grab. The lava doesn't hurt at all; surely this is an error, right? If not, this is a bad type of accessibility and at least 5% would be better than the current nothing, if not 10%.

 - I liked the mosh pit, very... moshy, and sweaty, and I took a punch to the face and idk where it came from. I liked the strategy for this fight and everything about it was appropriate. The cyber afterwards was cool too and a nice, light obstacle to keep in the back of one's mind as they clear the barons. I wasn't about to gather plasma ammo there, thinking I should save it anyway and especially with the shells, hinting at their use, but in retrospect I wish I would have just taken the faster path of using all rockets, then cells, then grabbing more cells and finishing him off.

 - I loved the finale. Amazing work; could have been longer. Should have been longer. Great use of multiple pathways, but it would have been a bit better for my taste if it emphasized a slower, more methodical approach while dodging and planning movement/timing, but that would have required it to be longer and prolly shaped differently.

 - Nice OS rj

The visuals of this map were also great; I loved how clean and foreboding everything looked. The areas also had a great sense of verticality to them and the automap is downright gorgeous. Great use of lighting, color and contrast throughout as well. The MC Eshcer room may not be the highlight for some people among the many great visuals in here, but to me that was the moment I realized I had stumbled into something amazing and was like 'holy shit.' Really great use of layering for the lighting that is central to the aesthetic of the room. The area just looks otherworldly in such a grand and mysterious way that beckons the player to understand it. I guess that's more than just a visual note though as that was also my favorite part of the map, which is saying something because I loved the combat here. It's just so creative and fun though; great job! 

An interesting *hits blunt* observation about this map is the way it rides the ebb and flow of emotional buildup. Much in the same way as a sports game with its fans or a mega-church would play to the emotions of its financial victims, with bursts of high energy excitement interspersed with periods of calm anticipation, each bigger and more bold than the last leading to bigger climaxes, more relieving and suspenseful calms after the storm, and more meaningful buildups and encounters. This map played a good psychological game from the outset and continued with it to its conclusion. Starting with the soft-lock of the pyramid climb leading to the tight, tight quarters rocketing, continuing through to the nice reset-on-health-punchy, barely clinging on to that plot of dry land as you circle around in a feeble attempt to survive just to get at that beautiful, graceful blue key. From there you get a sigh of relief in the form of a SS before being pounded by a close quarters cyber and co. First boss fight of the map and it feels like one too, after which you get a large, appropriate bit of rest and calm as you cautiously approach the RK area. This feeling of calm continues through the stress and deaths of the RK area through its lack of monsters, though I'm also not sure the mc escher room fits in with this monologue. From the RK grab the action begins to ramp up again, slowly but with a hurried feeling of anticipation from the rush of the lowering platforms and killing imps, leading to the baron at the end as a good soft climax to that spot. In the very brief moment of calm a good ambush keeps the player guessing, and then it's time for a big, bad fight. You can just sense the impending doom as you enter the room, but after that huge amount of action, it sends off with a light sampling of what's to come in the finale. After a short breather, the finale is almost more of a great encore to the ending of the previous encounter than like a final, largest-climax-of-the-map, but I'm so glad to see you put this type of setup in a map you're releasing. This one was way easier tho, 0/10 ;p Nah but seriously I can't decide which of the two I prefer; both are fun in different ways for how they differ.

7 hours ago, Fonze said:

I've also decided that your last name is Peterson.

Clean up your room. :P

7 hours ago, Fonze said:

As I said I didn't like the pyramid overall; I understand its reasoning, but still don't like it, or the imp on the ledge.

Fair enough. As for the imp, it was either that or a shootswitch, at least the imp can cause people to make mistakes and fall down. :P

7 hours ago, Fonze said:

Crushers were super easy; I made them tougher on myself with my preconception that they'd be tough like your MH19 collab with rd. Would have been broken-easy if I had used freelook, especially if playing on GlBoom+ where you can look straight up, but all-in-all that wasn't even close to necessary as the candles were a nice pattern

I have been hesitant with the difficulty there for several reasons. Considering the platforming area that also belongs to the red key section I thought something less tight was in order. Fucking that section up is lethal, which is the main reason I kept it less harsh, but it also serves well as a rope that impatient or nervous players can hang themselves with, which I personally like about it. ;-)

7 hours ago, Fonze said:

MC Escher room. Yes. Fucking yes thank you for this, but at the same time wtf on the doors? No, not that they're present and require switches during a fairly tight, timed platforming segment, but that they don't close on reset. Like I can accept and like the positioning on the close line for the first door, I can accept no line on the second door, but on the final 3, whats the point in having 3 doors/switches if they aren't gonna close on reset??????????????? I'm so confused; did I miss something, or is this not working as it should, or is it just 'accessible?' To me, this section would have been far better if hitting all switches were required, or if it played as-is, but the 3 top doors reset on fail. That was a total let-down, and I'm sad I didn't persevere on at least hitting all 3 top switches each attempt that somehow got that far. I feel like my win on this was cheated.

In spite of how the section looks, it still isn't finished entirely. Door resets will get moved as part of the last update, and I will also add some "padding geometry" in places. UV will have a full reset, with door triggers most likely placed on the highlighted marble floor that leads to the teleport. I'm still not sure if I want to do the same thing for HMP and lower, because of how divisive opinions about platforming are, especially if it's not just walking straight lines, or large "chasm-esque" pillars that you can't really miss. It is a CP after all, so I wanna exercise at least some restraint. Another reason I did not do this yet is that I'm not 100% sure if I should make a third version for itytd: Not having the doors reset right away (or at all) each time does make things easier, and that might be just what the doctor ordered for the lowest settings, if the need arises. But yeah, UV will have a full reset no matter what, HMP and lower I'm not 100% sure yet. Frankly, I'm still slightly surprised the platforming didn't get any "hate" so far, but I still expect that somebody might rage at this, or already has.

7 hours ago, Fonze said:

Likewise with the following part after the RK grab. The lava doesn't hurt at all; surely this is an error, right? If not, this is a bad type of accessibility and at least 5% would be better than the current nothing, if not 10%.

I guess of all the "artifacts of construction" in my maps this is perhaps the most hilarious one I ever managed to "produce", especially because I did it several times. It's gonna be 10% hurt floor, yeah. 20% is probably too much for lower settings, and I really wanna avoid rad suits here.

7 hours ago, Fonze said:

could have been longer. Should have been longer.

Mhm, that's what he said. I'll have a look at this... Maybe keeping the center paths tighter but more suitable for faster people while having the outer routes wider to support players who prefer the methodical approach might work fine. By the way, being able to walk off the platforms without triggering a telefrag is also one of those things that have gone missing when the builder gave me trouble, that really wasn't supposed to happen, sorry about that.

Alright, cool thanks for putting this together, if there's a video I'll make sure to watch it when it's available.

- First platforming part (with the rockets) is perfect, no need to change that.

- The pyramidal climb is great too—seems like a fun way to annoy speedrunners—but finding the "start" of the pyramid can be confusing, especially if you move to the landing first and have to trudge through lava. Placing a candle down at the very first square block (sector 70) should be a good enough hint.

- The fight at the top is a bit tight. It's devious and I like it, but doing that fight at 20% health like I did is no bueno. Perhaps make the other stimpack a medikit? It's hard to say, because frankly not running through the lava should make that battle a lot easier, but I didn't think you were going to be so merciless.

- The berserk battle is pretty good—felt like there was enough health to mitigate any issues I'd have being a poor puncher. Then again I had a line of enemies warp in fairly late, so the slow trickle probably helped me out. I'd recommend making the switch that lowers the BK pillar a full linedef placed right in front of the FIREBLU pillar, as it's easier to miss activating it and wondering what to do.

- The fight past the BK gate is a goddamn bloodbath. First, the player doesn't know about the cybie warping in behind them, second, cell is at a premium, and third: cacos blocking the player is super frustrating, especially in such a tight, crammed area. This is a fight that I pretty much died over and over and over again until I found a good time to hide & save in the pinkie cubby, and then died over and over until I could slip past the barons and run away. I assume you have some strat that works 100% of the time, but I could not deduce it at all and like I was trapped in a Doomguy meatgrinder. First thing I'd personally ditch is those goddamn cacos cluttering pathways up, but I'm sure they serve some kind of purpose. Honestly, having a lot more cell so the player can push through pinkies and barons might be the proper fix, though I'm sure it'll ruin the flow of combat. This absolutely needs adjustments though.

- Likewise, the rising platforming room is too brutal. I feel bad about lambasting this because it's such a cool puzzle under limit-removing conditions no less, but it's way too unforgiving for my dull keyboard reactions. I tried and failed multiple times even with saves, and then got to the winding path section near the end and had to give up—it's damn near impossible without being able to turn on a dime. Again, in a solo release this is a cool, frantic challenge, but you need to be accommodating for players like me that can't platform to save their life. My suggestion would be to honestly ditch a lot or all of the switches, as having to nimbly hit them while moving quickly is too taxing of a task.

- The crusher room in comparison is a really simple task, especially once you realize you can skip multiple candles. I like the idea of the cacos warping in to pressure you, but they don't really amount to anything. Honestly I liked it just because I could clear it in one-go unlike a majority of your other challenges.

- Past the red key gate, for some reason all the lava sectors are missing their damaging sector effect. I'm pretty sure that's a mistake, and when you fix it I highly recommend making it -5/10% health instead of -10/20%

- The big cavern fight is really cool and very dangerous. Might be a bit difficult for non slaughter players and rubes, so maybe you could throw down a green armor for folks, especially considering the cybie right afterwards. It's a good fight though, difficult without feeling like you're being blocked from moving (by some bullshit cacodemons ARRRGGHHH)

- The cyber afterwards is junk. It's really difficult to grab the cell without being shot or splash damaged, it's difficult to fight him without tripping into the lava, and there's so few cell that you're required to collect all of it. Fighting cybers on thin platforms is a bit iffy for me, and doubly if you're having to collect goodies while doing so. I know you'll hate this suggestion, but it really felt like the player needed a BFG here.

- The final cybers are ok. At first it looks like a hellish task but it's not too hard to speed your way to the teleport sector. I'd recommend making the stairways out of the lava brighter, just so the player can spot them easily if they happen to fall down.

- RL jump is... mmmm. I'm not a fan of RL jump for a secret exit (it's fine for secrets), but I'm also not going to fight you over this. Only thing I'd suggest is spreading the rockets out a little more so they more clearly form an arrow, as I thought it was just a clump of rockets, and I didn't know what to do.

On 7/25/2019 at 10:14 PM, dobu gabu maru said:

- The pyramidal climb is great too—seems like a fun way to annoy speedrunners—but finding the "start" of the pyramid can be confusing, especially if you move to the landing first and have to trudge through lava. Placing a candle down at the very first square block (sector 70) should be a good enough hint.

 

- The fight at the top is a bit tight. It's devious and I like it, but doing that fight at 20% health like I did is no bueno. Perhaps make the other stimpack a medikit? It's hard to say, because frankly not running through the lava should make that battle a lot easier, but I didn't think you were going to be so merciless

I expected the green armour to be enough of a bait to get players interested in checking out the pyramid more closely. What I will do is place a trail of bread crumbs (read: health boni) around the pyramid to make sure that most people get the right idea there. Having said that, the additional health on the climb means no additional health at the top, which I reckon is a decent compromise, because it also takes the edge off the fight at the top a little.

On 7/25/2019 at 10:14 PM, dobu gabu maru said:

I'd recommend making the switch that lowers the BK pillar a full linedef placed right in front of the FIREBLU pillar, as it's easier to miss activating it and wondering what to do

Denied. I don't want to make this map feel "comfortable", and clicking on a pillar while having all the time in the world isn't much to ask, imo.

On 7/25/2019 at 10:14 PM, dobu gabu maru said:

The fight past the BK gate is a goddamn bloodbath. First, the player doesn't know about the cybie warping in behind them, second, cell is at a premium, and third: cacos blocking the player is super frustrating, especially in such a tight, crammed area. This is a fight that I pretty much died over and over and over again until I found a good time to hide & save in the pinkie cubby, and then died over and over until I could slip past the barons and run away. I assume you have some strat that works 100% of the time, but I could not deduce it at all and like I was trapped in a Doomguy meatgrinder. First thing I'd personally ditch is those goddamn cacos cluttering pathways up, but I'm sure they serve some kind of purpose. Honestly, having a lot more cell so the player can push through pinkies and barons might be the proper fix, though I'm sure it'll ruin the flow of combat. This absolutely needs adjustments though.

I've left UV unchanged, HMP has fewer cacos, hntr and lower have even less cacos and a BFG. Getting the cybie tethered to anything there isn't much to ask, all it might take is perhaps squeezing past him once or twice, at which point he'll be sufficiently busy so that players can work their rocket launcher. Built in cheese is when you know it's the same cybie, and use it to instantly tether him to the blocker-barons and vice versa. I concede that this isn't necessarily obvious, and it might take a few attempts for people to figure it out, but anybody who played that far will already know to drop saves beforehand. The fight can be done without any "galaxy brain strats", as is evidenced by Fonze's video where he almost beats it on his third attempt. Had he been less passive, he could have made it right then and there. I'd rather not water down UV, and simply give a bit more breathing room for lower settings. Additional cells for hntr and maybe even HMP are something I'd be willing too look into if needs be, however.

On 7/25/2019 at 10:14 PM, dobu gabu maru said:

Likewise, the rising platforming room is too brutal. I feel bad about lambasting this because it's such a cool puzzle under limit-removing conditions no less, but it's way too unforgiving for my dull keyboard reactions. I tried and failed multiple times even with saves, and then got to the winding path section near the end and had to give up—it's damn near impossible without being able to turn on a dime. Again, in a solo release this is a cool, frantic challenge, but you need to be accommodating for players like me that can't platform to save their life. My suggestion would be to honestly ditch a lot or all of the switches, as having to nimbly hit them while moving quickly is too taxing of a task.

The switches will stay, also not all doors reset and I'll keep it that way, which I believe is a fair enough compromise for people who get stuck at the winding path. Having said that, I've shortened the winding path on UV slightly regardless. I really don't wanna make giant leaps here, not because I can't, but because I wanna make sure that it doesn't end up being boring. Platforming is so polarizing that I can bend over backwards while riding a unicycle and juggling 50 burning chickens at the same time, and it'll still piss somebody off no matter how easy (relatively speaking) I make it. Hence I'd rather keep it decent for interested players, because the naysayers will inevitably try that setup once or twice after they understood what they need to be doing, and then they'll drop an IDCLIP anyway. I know it comes across like a copout, but that's just how it is. I simply see no point in trying to build a platforming section for people who don't like platforming. Also I don't like the idea of being swayed into making maps accessible for people who play keyboard only and suffer from the drawbacks of an inferior control scheme by choice. Apologies if this comes across like a sucker punch, but this section (in particular the winding path) simply wrecks keyboarders on UV (especially if you don't use things like "flip 180°"), and there is nothing I can do about that, unless I rebuild the entire thing, of course.

On 7/25/2019 at 10:14 PM, dobu gabu maru said:

The big cavern fight is really cool and very dangerous. Might be a bit difficult for non slaughter players and rubes, so maybe you could throw down a green armor for folks, especially considering the cybie right afterwards. It's a good fight though, difficult without feeling like you're being blocked from moving (by some bullshit cacodemons ARRRGGHHH)

UV and HMP have a green armour now, hntr has a blue armour.

On 7/25/2019 at 10:14 PM, dobu gabu maru said:

The cyber afterwards is junk. It's really difficult to grab the cell without being shot or splash damaged, it's difficult to fight him without tripping into the lava, and there's so few cell that you're required to collect all of it. Fighting cybers on thin platforms is a bit iffy for me, and doubly if you're having to collect goodies while doing so. I know you'll hate this suggestion, but it really felt like the player needed a BFG here.

You're not obligated to multi task anything there. I don't even multi task that fight like that, and I built the bloody thing. The teleports will always take you into a safe corner, and it's really not difficult to hose the cybie with plasma from afar. HNTR already has a BFG, but HMP and UV won't be getting one, reason being that I don't want to give people the impression they'd need to attempt a 2-shot on the cyberdemon, which would be tricky with the terrain such as it is, for that matter. For HNTR I felt like I could get away with a BFG in the map, because people who pick that setting by default are much less likely to even consider a 2-shot. Maybe I'm overthinking this, but speaking from experience, plasma and BFG are about equal in cell-damage ratio over certain distances, I don't know where the "breaking point" is exactly, but the BFG won't be changing much, if anything, for like +90% of players. Having said that, I gave a little more room to mitigate the splash damage, which, coupled with the extra armour, seems forthcoming enough, given that the "fight" quite literally presents an easy solution on a silver platter as soon as you teleport away once after dropping in the lava. It's not a lock-in, there's no time pressure, and even though it isn't the "Mt.Cleverest" of fights, it's nowhere near as "janky" as you perceive it to be.