JAMAL JONES TRILOGY - Old development thread - [Doomkid's 20 Years Mapping Contest]

Good luck, @Doomkid and friends. Thanks for everything you do for the community.

Vanilla mapping is hard, but working on the Realm of Chaos remaster has me prepared to deal with its limitations while still satisfying my need for pretty lighting. Pretty sure this mean mothersucker isn't going to end up hitting the aesthetic notes of more traditionally vanilla-flavored maps, but I hope you'll enjoy playing it all the same, Doomkid!

5 minutes ago, Cammy said:

Vanilla mapping is hard, but working on the Realm of Chaos remaster has me prepared to deal with its limitations while still satisfying my need for pretty lighting. Pretty sure this mean mothersucker isn't going to end up hitting the aesthetic notes of more traditionally vanilla-flavored maps, but I hope you'll enjoy playing it all the same, Doomkid!

 

That looks incredible, wow. All that lava sure is intimidating.

A little update. I decided to take the map in a different direction and theme.

EARLY BUILD SCREENSHOTS:

The groundwork for an early portion of my map has been laid out.
I took these screencaps in GZDoom, in order to catch the full detail, of what's present. (Testing IS still being done in Chocolate DOOM obviously)

Is the general rule of thumb "If it doesn't crash CD then it'll likely work in the DOS Executable"? I've only ever worked with Zdoom based ports, and I also know the ChocDoom is about as close to the original DOS version as we can get, so I'm not exactly sure on what to look for in terms of level-crashing anomalies.

1 hour ago, TubularB1Us said:

Is the general rule of thumb "If it doesn't crash CD then it'll likely work in the DOS Executable"? I've only ever worked with Zdoom based ports, and I also know the ChocDoom is about as close to the original DOS version as we can get, so I'm not exactly sure on what to look for in terms of level-crashing anomalies.

If it works in Chocolate Doom, then it’s totally fine!

3 hours ago, MEMEAIDS said:

I really like this picture!

I feel greatly overloaded because I've never made my own map before but the ideas I have for both DIY and JAMAL JONES map are absolutely too good to forsake. So could someone give me a rough estimate on how many hours might be enough to finish a map for this contest? Regardless of experience, I just need some number.

53 minutes ago, game said:

I feel greatly overloaded because I've never made my own map before but the ideas I have for both DIY and JAMAL JONES map are absolutely too good to forsake. So could someone give me a rough estimate on how many hours might be enough to finish a map for this contest? Regardless of experience, I just need some number.

Anywhere from as few as 4-5 hours, to as much as 10 hours for a somewhat bigger map, tends to be my average time spent with oldschool-style map. There’s a lot of muscle memory when it comes to Doom Builder, very familiar/comfortable for me, but even if I was a bit less experienced I think that would only add a couple of hours to the process!

9 minutes ago, Doomkid said:

Anywhere from as few as 4-5 hours, to as much as 10 hours for a somewhat bigger map, tends to be my average time spent with oldschool-style map. There’s a lot of muscle memory when it comes to Doom Builder, very familiar/comfortable for me, but even if I was a bit less experienced I think that would only add a couple of hours to the process!

Warms my heart to hear, thanks so much. I told my friend I'd have to reserve at least 100 hours to come up with the room designs because I'm apparently so slow. You certainly helped me view it as more manageable.

For me the most time-consuming part is designing the encounters and balancing the combat (adding ammo, stimpacks, etc.).

It's approx.:

- 10% for coming up with the idea

- 20% for sectors and geometry

- 50% monster/ammo placement, testing

- 20% final detailing and fine-tuning (I can never resist adding additional detail here and there) :-)

Version 1.1 : Fixed a bug with the monster traps (courtesy of Doomkid), trimmed some textures, added four additional enemies that were missing in the first version.

============================================================================================

Alright, folks, here's my contribution for Doomkid's 20YMC : Derelict Row !

Derelict Row - OneManOri (20 Years of Mapping Contest).zip

* Tested on :

- GZDoom (Works flawlessly)

- PRBoom+ (Works flawlessly)

- DSDA-Doom (Works flawlessly)

- Crispy Doom (Works flawlessly)

* THIS WAD CANNOT BE PLAYED IN RUDE / CHOCOLATE DOOM / VANILLA DOOM

* Fully implemented difficulty settings

* Co-op compatible

* Multiplayer compatible

* MIDI used : Put You Down by Alice In Chains (MIDI rendition by Doomkid)

"Jamal Jones finds himself stranded in a former UAC complex, now overrun by decay, ruin and demons. It's time to reclaim the place !"

I've hardly done any mapping myself, but this project seems like a reason for me to force myself to get something finished and presentable. Look out @Doomkid, beginner map incoming (in a month or so)! I don't know how well I'll hit that '90's vibe, since my map tastes were forged by the releases of the 2010's, but I imagine I can't stray too far with the limitations of vanilla mapping. I'm also playing through Rowdy Rudy right now, so I at least know what we're prequeling.

I did have a few questions about what you're looking for:

1. Given that (some of) these maps will be collated into a megawad, should I make any consideration for relating "theme" to "power level" for my map? For example, if you wanted to put the techbase maps at the beginning, you might not want a BFG sitting around in MAP05.
2. If I create my own MIDI, are there any additional constraints imposed by vanilla?
3. What are your feelings on Hell Revealed and Alien Vendetta? These are my closest connections to the time around the year 2000, so I want to know how they fit into the "pantheon" of WAD's in the '90's and early 2000's. Also, I'm strangely curious for my own sake.

9 hours ago, Origamyde said:

Alright, folks, here's my contribution for Doomkid's 20YMC : Derelict Row !

Derelict Row - OneManOri (20 Years of Mapping Contest).zip

 

* Tested on :

- GZDoom (Works flawlessly)

- PRBoom+ (Works flawlessly)

- DSDA-Doom (Works flawlessly)

- Crispy Doom (Works flawlessly)

- Rude / Chocolate Doom (Works Mostly - some doors may be stuck on an endless loop)

* Fully implemented difficulty settings

* Co-op compatible

* Multiplayer compatible

 

* MIDI used : Put You Down by Alice In Chains (MIDI rendition by Doomkid)

 

"Jamal Jones finds himself stranded in a former UAC complex, now overrun by decay, ruin and demons. It's time to reclaim the place !"

 

  Hide contents

 

The screenshots look fantastic! Really nailed the the run-down decaying tech base aesthetic. 

19 hours ago, FEDEX said:

I really like this picture!

Thanks, mate! I'm trying to make each section of the map as striking and distinct as possible.

18 minutes ago, MtPain27 said:

*I think of it more as a CP: I'm definitely not in this to win any prizes!

I don't think many people are out to win, I'm here for the memes personally.

51 minutes ago, MtPain27 said:

but UV without finding secrets challenged me

Just played the map, only problem is the final fight, the fight took 20 minutes off my life and I can understand why.  I don't go out of my way to find secrets, so the map is probably can not be finished by the average player on UV without secrets. Unless I am worse than the average player, and that is likely.

5 hours ago, Large Cat said:

1 - Given that (some of) these maps will be collated into a megawad, should I make any consideration for relating "theme" to "power level" for my map? For example, if you wanted to put the techbase maps at the beginning, you might not want a BFG sitting around in MAP05

 

2 - If I create my own MIDI, are there any additional constraints imposed by vanilla?

 

3 - What are your feelings on Hell Revealed and Alien Vendetta? These are my closest connections to the time around the year 2000, so I want to know how they fit into the "pantheon" of WAD's in the '90's and early 2000's. Also, I'm strangely curious for my own sake.

Hey Large Cat, these are some good questions.

Re: 1, feel free to make any combination of "theme" and "difficulty/length". While I'll do my best to arrange the wad into themed episodes, the first and foremost thing I'll consider when compiling will be difficulty. The end result may be a little "grab baggy", but I think that may end up adding to the fun (and if not we can always re-work stuff even after that actual contest element is judged & wrapped up)

Re: 2, Make sure your MIDI has now more than 12 tracks (not including track 0), and try to keep it under about ~65 kb in size. Anything larger may refuse to play!

Re: 3, For the most part, I enjoy Alien Vendetta. It can be a little sloggy/long-winded at times, but on the whole I find it a fun experience. HR is one of those wads where I'm nostalgic for the appearance of the maps, the "vibe" they give off, and the MIDI files - but I don't think it's actually all that fun, even despite my affinity for it as a result of some trace of nostalgia.

On 1/7/2022 at 8:09 AM, Rycuz said:

Map Name: To The  Site
Download Link: https://wadhosting.com/Wad/B4E46BF61B8FBD2C1205211332E8446837E454E7

14 hours ago, Origamyde said:

Alright, folks, here's my contribution for Doomkid's 20YMC : Derelict Row !

Derelict Row - OneManOri (20 Years of Mapping Contest).zip

3 hours ago, MtPain27 said:

The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides...by a horde of screaming demons! I've just finished the first draft of my submission to this contest: it's called Ezekiel 25:17, mostly because I started with a hellish chapel and thought, "Hey, I've got a title that's happens to be biblical, AND a cold-blooded thing to say to a motherf*cking demon before I pop a cap in his ass."

Thank the 3 of you very much for the submissions so far!

As much as I'd like to leave the full extent of my thoughts here as a review, I'll instead play through these strictly as a bug-finding mission, and to make myself a bit more familiar with them. I'll be keeping everything in the realm of "opinion" to myself, so as to not tip my hand prior to judgement day :) 

Is the map start and exit coherent each other like in the Rowdy Rudy Revenge?
And, is player starts with 50 bullet (considering player starts with 0 bullet in RRR)?
Also, how to add Blind Pinky and Toxicacodemon?

On 1/6/2022 at 9:43 PM, Doomkid said:

LOL. I didn't even mean to leave those textures in there, they're holdovers from the first Rowdy Rudy! Well, I guess they have to stay in there now :) I cracked up at that screenshot, great work so far.

Oh I didn't even knew they were holdovers! I thought you just decided to left them there for something, I wonder if there's gonna be ending textures like those from the first Rowdy Rudy for this one? It'd be cool to see that!

Also thank you! I have been thinking about the concept for this map and I think people will like the idea of it since it's "kinda" plays around with the Rowdy Rudy "Lore" that's in the Rowdy Rudy's Revenge .txt file.

12 hours ago, MtPain27 said:

The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides...by a horde of screaming demons! I've just finished the first draft of my submission to this contest: it's called Ezekiel 25:17, mostly because I started with a hellish chapel and thought, "Hey, I've got a title that's happens to be biblical, AND a cold-blooded thing to say to a motherf*cking demon before I pop a cap in his ass." So the map and the MIDI that goes with it aren't Pulp Fiction themed, but Pulp Fiction references suit the whole 90s thing this project has going on, so Zeke 25:17 it is. This map took about four days to make, not including a day to hammer out the MIDI and another to test, polish, and initiate bug fixing. 

 

Some caveats: this is the first map I've made that I think is at all worth showing to anyone, so I hope the jank/mistakes/blandness can be excused at least from the perspective of, again, this being a callback to the 90s and early 00s. I even caught a bug right before I posted the wad at the link below (titled JAMAL JONES - Ezekiel 25:17 [Version 1] - MtPain27), one of the lava pits in the middle of the mine is less deep than the others, so when you lower the bridge there's a HOM. I've fixed this already. I'm sure there are other bugs and I would be much obliged to anyone who finds them. Of course, I also welcome feedback regarding gameplay; I'm very new to this, so I'm taking suggestions like free Dunkin Donuts samples.

 

The map is balanced for all skill levels and I threw a bunch of extra monsters and ammo in there for MP...it hasn't been tested at all. This map should work fine with ZDoom and derivatives as well as DSDA Doom, but PrBoom behaves weirdly with one of the map's intended mechanics: see the sludge room with the mancs. I'd love to know how to fix that. Also, the MIDI does a weird skip towards the end if you have your sound not set to GS Wavetable Synth in ZDoom, but loops perfectly with no skip in DSDA for some reason. Again, no idea why. Re: vanilla compat, there shouldn't be any visplane overflows, but there are an awful lot of things. I won't guarantee that it won't crash DOOM2.exe. 

 

I was able to effortlessly finish HNTR without saves and without finding any secrets, found HMP brisker and fairly easy under the same conditions, and successfully beat UV saveless with full access to secrets...but UV without finding secrets challenged me. It takes me between 10 and 15 minutes to beat. It took the Delinquent almost an hour though, no joke!

 

Anyway, thank you for hosting this contest*, Doomkid! I never would have thought to open UDB without this as an incentive, and I can't think of a better place to debut. Hope you all enjoy, and happy mapping everyone!

 

*I think of it more as a CP: I'm definitely not in this to win any prizes!

Also this looks very good to me! I may try it out once I finish my submission like the other maps submitted here.

And I think most people really just think of it as a CP, I don't think I really will win anything, and I just join Contests and CPs for the fun of it, I join these and do mapping for a reason, after all! :)

Oh yeah also, @Doomkid is it okay If I use a sky texture but only for my submission? Sorry if I keep bothering you with this question about skies, it's just that those are something that quite matter to me, especially for the themeing of my map.

And also is it okay if I use the dehacked from the OneManV2.wad just to change the name of the map, and use a CWILV00 sprite to replace the normal Entryway one?

Some more in-progress screenshots.

(took some inspiration from map08 from rudy 2, screenshots taken in glboom+.)

Also, MtPain here as well? Nice, glad to see you're up for the challenge!

16 hours ago, MtPain27 said:

The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides...by a horde of screaming demons! I've just finished the first draft of my submission to this contest: it's called Ezekiel 25:17, mostly because I started with a hellish chapel and thought, "Hey, I've got a title that's happens to be biblical, AND a cold-blooded thing to say to a motherf*cking demon before I pop a cap in his ass." So the map and the MIDI that goes with it aren't Pulp Fiction themed, but Pulp Fiction references suit the whole 90s thing this project has going on, so Zeke 25:17 it is. This map took about four days to make, not including a day to hammer out the MIDI and another to test, polish, and initiate bug fixing.

It's great to see you try your hand at mapping!  I'll have to give the map a shot sometime  ^_^

Speaking of maps, my submission is coming along nicely, I hope to have a 'first draft' of sorts ready by next week.  In the meantime, a few screenshots for people to gaze over in the spoiler section below.

Whilst the screenshots were obviously taken in GZDoom, I have been testing in Chocolate Doom & keeping a close eye on the 'Visplane Explorer' in UDB and so far, no crashes!  I have had to swap a couple textures/flats here & there due to the 'tutti-frutti' bug but that's all for the moment.

On 1/10/2022 at 1:48 AM, Doomkid said:

This is the "Nukage drain" texture right? It's in the resource pack! I love that one.

Yes, that's the one. One of my favorites as well :)

Can't see it, though :(

Maybe because normally it is a part of DOOM1.WAD, not DOOM2.WAD. That also applies to the butchered baron texture.

Unless I'm missing something?

-------------------------------------------------------------

Version 3 Changelog:

Version 2 Changelog:

-------------------------------------------------------------

Here is my submission!

- Map Name: Pollution Plant
- Format: Doom 2
- Build Time: ~30 hours over 7 days
- Difficulty: Medium

- Music: "Level 2" - Wings of Death
    - Original Composer: Jochen Hippel
    - Midi Composer: Oedipus
      Trimmed and looped by me (Glikkzy)

- Story:

- Difficulty Settings: Not implemented as of now
- Coop: 4 Player Starts

Tested on:
- GZDoom
- Chocolate Doom

Preview:

Download Version 3: https://wadhosting.com/Wad/C4B75C29270AAF5B79B43574F4B0A120298B5ABD

Download Version 2: https://wadhosting.com/Wad/F86D8D2C7AD6F888E80B4A39BF8E6C7411204DA0
Download Version 1: https://wadhosting.com/Wad/004CE53C0D04C7FB778380BF69897D8DA1EF23AA

9 hours ago, LGmaire said:

I wonder if there's gonna be ending textures like those from the first Rowdy Rudy for this one? It'd be cool to see that!

[...]

Oh yeah also, @Doomkid is it okay If I use a sky texture but only for my submission? Sorry if I keep bothering you with this question about skies, it's just that those are something that quite matter to me, especially for the themeing of my map.

[...]

And also is it okay if I use the dehacked from the OneManV2.wad just to change the name of the map, and use a CWILV00 sprite to replace the normal Entryway one?

Re 1: I'll definitely have a "scrolling credit textures" sequence similar to the end of the first RR! This is mainly because, looking back at Rowdy Rudy 2 and the Ray Mohawk wads, I think the endings are "satisfying enough" for a Doom wad, but the first RR had the best sendoff of the lot in terms of actual endscreen sequences.

Re 2: That's OK, just try to keep it on the "subtle side", no flashing bright purple nebula sky textures or anything like that :) Just note that it will only show up in the "advanced half" of source ports, whereas Vanilla, Chocolate etc will just show the stock standard sky. (Always wished there was a way around that)

Re 3: Don't worry about this aspect of things - upon compilation of all the maps into a single megawad, I'll set the correct map names with CWILV graphics and in a Mapinfo lump. You may of course make the CWILV sprite yourself if you wish, but I'll be doing it for every submission so don't feel you "have" to, in other words.

10 hours ago, Rycuz said:

Is the map start and exit coherent each other like in the Rowdy Rudy Revenge?
And, is player starts with 50 bullet (considering player starts with 0 bullet in RRR)?
Also, how to add Blind Pinky and Toxicacodemon?

Unfortunately, because of the "grab bag" style of this wad, I think that would be too much of a pain. However, if before release you'd like to alter your map and the participant next you you also is willing to alter theirs so that they both match up perfectly, that would be fine too. (I'll be making a map or 2 for this wad just for fun, and I'm considering shaping my starts and exits accordingly, even though some maps won't directly match up.)

I figured the 50 bullet start was a bit better for the community project side of things. I wanted the resources to be "close enough" to vanilla Doom so that mappers wouldn't have to spend too much time adjusting to a new gameplay balance.

The BP and the Toxicaco automatically replace the standard pinky and standard Caco! (If vanilla had more frames, I'd have kept the classic Caco in as well)

2 hours ago, mgr_inz_rafal said:

Yes, that's the one. One of my favorites as well :)

Can't see it, though :(

That is really strange.. For me, when I use 1manV2.wad as a resource in Doom Builder, the SLADRIP textures all are present, and work perfectly during playtesting when I use them (the hung Baron is absent though.. for now). I wonder why it's not showing up on your end?

Even if it continues to say "unknown texture" in DB, feel free to just use it anyway - rest assured that if you set a texture as SLADRIP1 it will work perfectly once I get all the maps compiled!

Also, I just want to say that I'm really happy with the submissions so far! Hypothetically, the wad could just be released with the current submissions + my map bringing it to a 5 map mini-episode, and I think people would really like it already. Bodes very well for the future of this project!! (Although I haven't gotten the chance to play / test your map yet Glikkzy, but I absolutely love what I'm seeing at a brief peek.)

@Rycuz, I only found one small bug in your map: a little sneaky HOM that appears when you look out the window! This could be easily fixed by setting the northernmost sector's floor height to 72, and ceiling height to 73.

@MtPain27 and @Origamyde , I see an error that messes solely with vanilla/chocolate Doom that is common to both of your maps: Monsters are "stuck" in 0-height traps that are meant to open up. In 90% of source ports this doesn't matter, but monsters can only be in sectors taller than they are in vanilla Doom, or else the monster and sector itself get "glued" together on the Z-axis, preventing the sector from moving at all.

This sucks balls because, even though I don't want to give specific feedback, your maps are both really fun and having to do the necessary surgery to prevent this will be a pain in the ass.. Forgive me for my insistence on arbitrary vanilla limits, fellas!

20 hours ago, MtPain27 said:

The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides...by a horde of screaming demons! I've just finished the first draft of my submission to this contest: it's called Ezekiel 25:17, mostly because I started with a hellish chapel and thought, "Hey, I've got a title that's happens to be biblical, AND a cold-blooded thing to say to a motherf*cking demon before I pop a cap in his ass."

 

 

 

 

The first MtPain reference I actually get, but literally everyone on the planet as probably seen that movie once at least. I had no idea what "the neighborhood dogs told me to turn my music off" in his breakdown of Icarus Map 25" was, or what the hell where he took 'skull children' from in the last Patreon video he uploaded, since googling the phrase got me nowhere.

20 hours ago, MtPain27 said:

It took the Delinquent almost an hour though, no joke! 

The Delinquent's your brother, isn't he?

31 minutes ago, Doomkid said:

Re 1: I'll definitely have a "scrolling credit textures" sequence similar to the end of the first RR! This is mainly because, looking back at Rowdy Rudy 2 and the Ray Mohawk wads, I think the endings are "satisfying enough" for a Doom wad, but the first RR had the best sendoff of the lot in terms of actual endscreen sequences.

That's cool to know! I always really liked that special "credits" map made specipically for that, so it's cool to see that you're doing it for Jamal Jones.

31 minutes ago, Doomkid said:

 

Re 2: That's OK, just try to keep it on the "subtle side", no flashing bright purple nebula sky textures or anything like that :) Just note that it will only show up in the "advanced half" of source ports, whereas Vanilla, Chocolate etc will just show the stock standard sky. (Always wished there was a way around that)

Oof, thank god you didn't get annoyed at me or anything!

I will definetly not add any sort of sky like that lmao, I don't think it would fit in the style that I'm having for my map, or the style you want these maps people are making to have for that matter!

Again, sorry for bothering you with this! I'll try my best to keep it subtle. :)

31 minutes ago, Doomkid said:

 

Re 3: Don't worry about this aspect of things - upon compilation of all the maps into a single megawad, I'll set the correct map names with CWILV graphics and in a Mapinfo lump. You may of course make the CWILV sprite yourself if you wish, but I'll be doing it for every submission so don't feel you "have" to, in other words.

That's alright then, I'll keep this in mind, I already made my own CWILV for my map so if you don't want to take that sprite from the .wad and want to make your own, then go ahead! I'm fine with it.

31 minutes ago, Doomkid said:

Also, I just want to say that I'm really happy with the submissions so far! Hypothetically, the wad could just be released with the current submissions + my map bringing it to a 5 map mini-episode, and I think people would really like it already. Bodes very well for the future of this project!!

I'm very happy that you're liking how the project is going! I always found it fun to put your wads in doom builder and make stuff up with their contents, so being able to participate in this and having the chance to put my map there makes it twice as fun for me! Also the submissions look quite fun! :D

5 minutes ago, LadyMistDragon said:

I had no idea what "the neighborhood dogs told me to turn my music off" in his breakdown of Icarus Map 25" was, or what the hell 'skull children' are, since googling the phrase got me nowhere.

The neighborhood dogs thing isn't a reference to anything, it's a joke about dog-whistles, which hit notes so high-pitched that they leave the audible range for human ears but can still be heard by dogs. Icarus MAP25's MIDI is full of such migraine-inducingly high-pitched noises that it sounds more or less like an orchestra of dog whistles. And "skull children", I'm pretty sure, is just a fun way of saying Lost Souls (insofar as they are the spawn, or "children", of Pain Elementals).

More on topic, the turnout of this project has been great so far, especially after only a week! You guys are putting out some pretty killer maps. I've played them all so far and had myself a great time, and it's always awesome to have another Doomkid-led CP to play. It's especially great to see so many newer creators stepping up to cut their teeth on this project - you could almost convince me this thing was secretly NOVA 4!