[dev thread, final version out, don't post here thank] Devious Deviance - An MBF21-compatible CP where we implement difficulty settings differently

On 7/16/2022 at 10:45 PM, Xaser said:

swapping monster types is a very powerful tool for changing up gameplay of an area

Just reroute them instead of outright replacing, then! You could even surround all your revenants with barrels on skill 2 if you so please. The possibilities are limitless!

I'm not sure if I'm gonna make a map for this, but if I did, I'm tempted to make one with neither monsters nor items changing depending on difficulty. Only the other stuff.

I like this idea and I wanted to have maps like this before long time ago, but I was too lazy to learn mapping. Sadly, gotta agree with Xaser about this here. Personally think the rule is way too strict and this eliminates quite a lot of design choices. I mean yeah, if somebody can make a same composition but vast different gameplay on three difficulties, that's super great. However, I personally think if you wanted to make all of them interesting, this takes really long time to do... Of course, I hope every mappers can make a fun map out of this, but I'm sorta pessimistic about whether everyone wants to invest this much time in it.

5 minutes ago, GarrettChan said:

I like this idea and I wanted to have maps like this before long time ago, but I was too lazy to learn mapping. Sadly, gotta agree with Xaser about this here. Personally think the rule is way too strict and this eliminates quite a lot of design choices. I mean yeah, if somebody can make a same composition but vast different gameplay on three difficulties, that's super great. However, I personally think if you wanted to make all of them interesting, this takes really long time to do... Of course, I hope every mappers can make a fun map out of this, but I'm sorta pessimistic about whether everyone wants to invest this much time in it.

Don't really know what to say to you without reiterating what I said in response to Xaser. And while I get your point about some design choices being eliminated due to the core gimmick, I don't entirely agree with it. The project already has a map submission that changes up the gameplay quite significantly between the difficulties, with a whole different route that you take through the level on each of them. Sure, it's a challenge to make the differences in gameplay "interesting" when the monsters have to be "ignored", but it's all about thinking outside the box and getting creative with the concept. And as for your point about time investment, the deadline is fairly generous (in relation to the CPs I've previously hosted) partly for that reason.

Sign me up. I think I have a fun idea.

yeah, im in. i sorta have a vision for my entry

When you say monster composition has to be the same across difficulties, are you referring to just type, or must they also have the same exact placement? i.e. can one experiment with different monster direction, ambush setting, place in map?

10 minutes ago, Horus said:

When you say monster composition has to be the same across difficulties, are you referring to just type, or must they also have the same exact placement? i.e. can one experiment with different monster direction, ambush setting, place in map?

Well, I did already allow changing the locations of teleport destinations, so sure, you can change up the placements and whatnot. Just be extra careful with keeping the types and counts unchanged.

(btw im assuming insanely difficult maps are allowed, considering rule 2)

3 minutes ago, raddicted said:

(btw im assuming insanely difficult maps are allowed, considering rule 2)

They are. I'll be sorting the maps by difficulty for the final mapset anyway.

Personally, I feel that the somewhat strict rules of the CP are plenty reasonable - sometimes creativity is working within narrow bounds, and still get something good out of it, rather than stretching the rules just because it's more convenient. Sometimes it's nice to leave that comfort zone, leave some ego behind and accept that it's ok to compromise on that 'big idea' map you had simply because you're asked to make something else.

It can be fun to play by the rules, once in a while.

Working on a submission as we speak. 

On 7/21/2022 at 2:02 PM, RED77 said:

OK, guys.

Here's the first version of my map:

FLUKEY MALERKY

 

Tested for dsda_doom Complevel 21

I'll wait your feedback to improve on it.

 

Map name: FLUKEY MALERKY

Author: RED 77

Playtime: 5 to 10 minutes

Music: La Tormenta contra el Mar - Emancipacion Colectiva (MIDI version by https://www.instagram.com/facuavilacorsini/)

Difficulty settings: yes

Description: The evil forces of hell took over this toxic refinery. Find the switches to gain access to the portal that leads you out there!

Notes: 
You start in front of three doors, each difficulty gives you the key to only one of them:
Easy: Yellow key provides you with a better arsenal from start and unlocks special passages. Most of the big fights are optional.
Medium: Blue key has a rough start but, if you survive, you now have the tools to make your way ahead easier.
Hard: No chill for you. Prepare to start with some platforming and a very restricted arsenal. All fights are almost mandatory. 
SECRETS: you have access to all three secrets in every difficult setting

 

VERSION 2.0 HERE:

FLUKEY_MALARKEY_V_2.0
 

Modifications:

-Some balance on the ammo
-Correction for lights on all the map
-Some detailing
-Correction on the alignment of some textures
-Change the buttons for a more tech-like one. 

So, mostly cosmetic stuff. 

29 minutes ago, RED77 said:

VERSION 2.0 HERE:

FLUKEY_MALARKEY_V_2.0
 

Modifications:

-Some balance on the ammo
-Correction for lights on all the map
-Some detailing
-Correction on the alignment of some textures
-Change the buttons for a more tech-like one. 

So, mostly cosmetic stuff. 

 

I just finished version 1, and my only complaint was that the rev ambush at the yellow key on UV was a little easy to cheese by just jumping down in the rocket launcher cubby, as I had already killed the archie and imps from the platforming room. I'd maybe tp a few more revs in there to make it harder, but maybe I'm just really mean. Overall I really liked it as is though.

48 minutes ago, TheLippyServer said:

I just finished version 1, and my only complaint was that the rev ambush at the yellow key on UV was a little easy to cheese by just jumping down in the rocket launcher cubby, as I had already killed the archie and imps from the platforming room. I'd maybe tp a few more revs in there to make it harder, but maybe I'm just really mean. Overall I really liked it as is though.

Thanks for the feedback.
That was by design, It's a little extra for killing the Archie early. But I see what you are saying.
I'll give it a few days and maybe come back with a 3rd revision.
 

You still accepting contributors to the project? I'd like to make a map, is it OK if it just uses Boom features and instead of the full MBF21 set (hard for an old dog to learn new tricks)?

11 minutes ago, Dr. Zin said:

You still accepting contributors to the project? I'd like to make a map, is it OK if it just uses Boom features and instead of the full MBF21 set (hard for an old dog to learn new tricks)?

Still accepting contributors, yeah. And sure, you can work in the standard Boom format, as long as the map works in complevel 21.

Alright, count me in!

On 7/23/2022 at 7:59 PM, RED77 said:

VERSION 2.0 HERE:

FLUKEY_MALARKEY_V_2.0

Wow, this is a very cool concept, really adds replayability to the map, it's interesting to play it on all difficulties.

I have a few minor criticisms, but otherwise this is very cool.

Here they are:

18 hours ago, Ravendesk said:

Wow, this is a very cool concept, really adds replayability to the map, it's interesting to play it on all difficulties.

I have a few minor criticisms, but otherwise this is very cool.

Here they are:

  Hide contents

All of these are just opinions, my experience may differ from others' experience.

 

1. Backtracking from the keys is a bit confusing, especially from blue key and yellow key. It would really be nice to have shortcuts/teleporters getting you back to where you need to be.

2. Difficulties are a bit unbalanced, HMP is almost harder than UV (at least blind) despite getting a plasma and HNTR is just a little easier. I really like how UV gets a platforming section at the start, but that's the only thing that's more difficult about it tbh. IMO HMP and HNTR need a bit more health. But idk, maybe I'm wrong.

3. I think this fight (on the screenshot) on UV is not really fair, if the archie starts zapping you right away you have zero cover and literally no way to avoid the zap, if he runs to the side, it's suddenly much much easier. Maybe make these side pillars/platforms smaller, but L-shaped? To have at least some possibility of getting a cover.

 

Thank you so much for playing and all the feedback! All going to my notes for one more correction in the near future

Agnosia Version 1

Map name: Agnosia
Author: SCF
Play time: 10-15 minutes
Music: Dark Matter, by Tristan Clark
Difficulty settings: Yes
Description: Dark techbase with linear progression

Notes:

All objects (enemies, weapons, resources) are the same on all difficulty levels. Only the map geometry and triggers are different.

The three key fights were the main focus. Some of the connecting areas between them are kind of uninspired and don't change much between difficulties. It turns out it's hard to make such areas noticeably different on three different difficulty levels.

As a mapper, this was an interesting challenge to think about, but I wonder how well it'll work from a player perspective. You'd have to play each map multiple times to really appreciate the design, otherwise it'll just be no different from a regular map.

Screenshot:

@SCF Another quite delicious map, I do say, but not without a few issues. Awesome visuals overall, and you've got some interesting things going on here, with some of the room configurations changing between the difficulties (mostly in the key fights, obviously). The gameplay definitely has a decent amount of bite to it, and I liked how the dynamics of the combat encounters changed with the different room configurations. The difficulty could use some tweaking in some places, though. Two of the main areas where I think there's room for improvement are as follows:

• BLUE KEY FIGHT - This is a cool combat scenario on every difficulty, but I feel that the intended difficulty maybe goes somewhat backwards here. HNTR I found to be almost the hardest version of the fight, funnily enough, with HMP feeling much easier and UV sort of falling in the middle. I'd need to replay the map to form a more accurate analysis, but that was my first impression of them at any rate. Regardless, this fight can be fleshed out with some further experimentation on HNTR in particular.
• RED KEY FIGHT - This one takes the cake, and not in the positive way, I hate to say. Once again, a cool fight conceptually, and the different order in which the platforms with the enemies on them lower changes the dynamics of the fight in quite interesting ways. That said, I feel that the fight on UV needs a serious overhaul. HNTR and HMP weren't too bad, but I didn't enjoy this fight on UV at all. I honest-to-God had to resort to IDDQD. With the revs and pinkies being the first to be unleashed, the fight quickly turns into a game of "try not to get cornered" and, more crucially, a fight where foreknowledge of the order in which the platforms lower helps to the point that it becomes a detriment to the gameplay. If you insist on keeping the order in which the platforms lower as it is, it definitely wouldn't hurt to at the very least give the player an extra megasphere or two, or maybe some invuls.

Give those two areas a closer look difficulty-wise and you'll have a really solid map here. Other than that, no complaints from me.

@MFG38: I'll take another look at the map later this month and do another revision. I was running out of ideas so I just wanted to finish a playable first version and take a break from it.

For the blue key fight, I'm surprised you found the HNTR version the hardest. It has the most space and you can just circle around the room, plus the archviles are mostly harmless. It still may need to be a bit easier at least to fit the lowest difficulty. I've give it another look.

The UV version of the red key room is definitely the hardest fight. I found a reliable strategy and figured that was good enough, but it may be out of step with the rest of map. For reference, what I did was:

3 hours ago, SCF said:

Agnosia Version 1

 

Map name: Agnosia
Author: SCF
Play time: 10-15 minutes
Music: Dark Matter, by Tristan Clark
Difficulty settings: Yes
Description: Dark techbase with linear progression

Notes:

 

All objects (enemies, weapons, resources) are the same on all difficulty levels. Only the map geometry and triggers are different.

 

The three key fights were the main focus. Some of the connecting areas between them are kind of uninspired and don't change much between difficulties. It turns out it's hard to make such areas noticeably different on three different difficulty levels.

 

As a mapper, this was an interesting challenge to think about, but I wonder how well it'll work from a player perspective. You'd have to play each map multiple times to really appreciate the design, otherwise it'll just be no different from a regular map.

 

Screenshot:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Very cool map.

My experience was a bit different from MFG38's so I'll share as well:

Overall I liked this map a lot and I really like that depending on the difficulty setting not only difficulty is changed but your strategy for the fights as well. And at the same time, each version of the fight feels like it had an idea behind it. For example, two versions of blue key fight (with some changed visuals) could be present in the same map on UV and nobody will notice that they are "the same fight". Very cool.

Concerning voodoo dolls. I just found out that it's apparently not possible to flag them for difficulty? It seems like all instances of 'player 1' I put in my map appear, no matter what difficulty you flag them with. Is this correct, or am I doing something wrong? (Tested in GZDoom 4.7.1 and dsda-doom 0.21.3; using Ultimate Doom Builder R3873)

I found a workaround for voodoo doll scripts though. You can use a hanging leg to block the voodoo doll's path on a conveyor belt, effectively preventing it from activating whatever it is supposed to be activating. (The hanging leg can be flagged for difficulty like every other item)

59 minutes ago, PinkFlamingo said:

Concerning voodoo dolls. I just found out that it's apparently not possible to flag them for difficulty? It seems like all instances of 'player 1' I put in my map appear, no matter what difficulty you flag them with. Is this correct, or am I doing something wrong? (Tested in GZDoom 4.7.1 and dsda-doom 0.21.3; using Ultimate Doom Builder R3873)

 

I found a workaround for voodoo doll scripts though. You can use a hanging leg to block the voodoo doll's path on a conveyor belt, effectively preventing it from activating whatever it is supposed to be activating. (The hanging leg can be flagged for difficulty like every other item)

 

I think that's normal. I used a similar (but less elegant) solution in my own map.

Count me in! I have an idea for a small limited texture use map

7 hours ago, PinkFlamingo said:

Concerning voodoo dolls. I just found out that it's apparently not possible to flag them for difficulty? It seems like all instances of 'player 1' I put in my map appear, no matter what difficulty you flag them with. Is this correct, or am I doing something wrong? (Tested in GZDoom 4.7.1 and dsda-doom 0.21.3; using Ultimate Doom Builder R3873)

 

I found a workaround for voodoo doll scripts though. You can use a hanging leg to block the voodoo doll's path on a conveyor belt, effectively preventing it from activating whatever it is supposed to be activating. (The hanging leg can be flagged for difficulty like every other item)

 

Yes, player starts don't respect difficulty flags. You may also use teleport destinations to send voodoo dolls to different places.

On 8/13/2022 at 8:55 PM, knifeworld said:

Count me in! I have an idea for a small limited texture use map

Done. c:

Since I'll be cutting very close to the deadline (will probably turn in the map on the last available day), a few screenies to show I'm actually working on something.

The plan is: same enemies, weapons, ammo and health on all difficulties, but the layout and environmental mechanics change based on the difficulty.

HNTR: difficult platforming / HMP: VERY difficult platforming, lots of MBF21 insta-death pits / UV: extreme platforming, slaughter, and bizzarre progression (including part of the map taking place inside the monster and voodoo doll closets, and a few extremely obscure secrets akin to side missions).

@Thelokk Ooh, I'm loving the look of that! Looking forward to playing the end result. c:

2 hours ago, Thelokk said:

Since I'll be cutting very close to the deadline (will probably turn in the map on the last available day), a few screenies to show I'm actually working on something.

Very cool looking heart.

Good idea to post progress, since I will also submit the map closer to the deadline, I'll post a few pics for now as well. The map is only 20% done but I finally have a good vision of the progression and I'm going to have much more free time in the two upcoming weeks.