Level Progress Diagrams – 2002ADO

[VanaheimRanger]

How would you go about making these for more modern boom and UDMF maps that have more features like multikey doors and such?  WOuld be cool to see some of those done.

[Rainne]

On 12/4/2019 at 2:38 AM, Gez said:

How about doing other games?

I was just about to ask about Hexen. I played through it recently, partly to get a sense of how each Hub is arranged progression-wise (with a mind toward devising my own). I agree that a hub can be treated as basically one large level for this purpose.

Hub 1 (Seven Portals): Ice level part 1, Fire/Steel levels part 1 (either order), Ice level part 2 (get keys), Fire/Steel levels part 2 (either order), exit.

Hub 2 (Shadow Wood): three main levels, each with a key that unlocks doors in the other two, and can be done in any order to unlock the exit.

Hub 3 (Heresiarch's Seminary): IIRC, two levels in either order (planet gems), then three levels I think also in any order, then exit.

Hub 4 (Castle of Grief): I don't remember this one as clearly but it felt somewhat more linear than the others until later on.

Hub 5 (Necropolis): three boss levels (any order), then the final boss level, and done.

[Wraith777]

On 1/9/2020 at 2:18 AM, guitardz said:

How would you go about making these for more modern boom and UDMF maps that have more features like multikey doors and such?  WOuld be cool to see some of those done.

 

I'll get to modern wads sooner or later, just want to cover most of classic ones from 1993-2003 first.

 

On 1/12/2020 at 1:07 PM, Rainne said:

I was just about to ask about Hexen. I played through it recently, partly to get a sense of how each Hub is arranged progression-wise (with a mind toward devising my own). I agree that a hub can be treated as basically one large level for this purpose.

Hub 1 (Seven Portals): Ice level part 1, Fire/Steel levels part 1 (either order), Ice level part 2 (get keys), Fire/Steel levels part 2 (either order), exit.

Hub 2 (Shadow Wood): three main levels, each with a key that unlocks doors in the other two, and can be done in any order to unlock the exit.

Hub 3 (Heresiarch's Seminary): IIRC, two levels in either order (planet gems), then three levels I think also in any order, then exit.

Hub 4 (Castle of Grief): I don't remember this one as clearly but it felt somewhat more linear than the others until later on.

Hub 5 (Necropolis): three boss levels (any order), then the final boss level, and done.

 

So, most of Hexen Hub LPDs may be represented as mix of linear and collector parts (when you need to solve all puzzles/collect keys generally in any order). But Hexen and Strife have more difficult LP structure to track down (you need to constantly check what actions are triggered on other maps), so I need to replay them again and make LPD in process (otherwise I'll just might forget a lot of details).

[Wraith777]

Now, let's get a little while back and look at some 94-95 wads:

 

                                 Serenity series

Interesting to note how series became more linear later on - only E3M3, E3M4, E3M7 are truly nonlinear maps here.

That yellow skullkey from E2M7 really bugged me 'till I've turned on DB to check where to hell is that yellow door...

[P41R47]

@Wraith777 I think its about time you tackle the big pink elefant on the room of 1993-2003.
And i'm talking about your worst nightmare!
But also, because it is a really important milestone on mapping before more modern mapsets...

ETERNAL Doom!

[Wraith777]

On 4/28/2020 at 10:31 PM, P41R47 said:

ETERNAL Doom!

Not yet, but I'm almost ready... And now let's look at The Innocent Crew classic wads:
-Slaughter Until Death (E2)
-The Evil Unleashed (E3)
-Obituary (Map01-16)

                             The Innocent Crew stuff

Again, mostly linear maps here. Only E2M9, Map05, Map07, Map31 were truly nonlinear.
Also, the hallmark of TiC's mapping is extensive level morphing (that's why it was not so easy to track down players progression).

Edited October 17, 2020 by Wraith777
Typo..

[P41R47]

5 minutes ago, Wraith777 said:

Not yet, but I'm almost ready... But not let's look at The Innocent Crew classic wads:
-Slaughter Until Death (E2)
-The Evil Unleashed (E3)
-Obituary (Map01-16)

                             The Innocent Crew stuff

Again, mostly linear maps here. Only E2M9, Map05, Map07, Map31 were truly nonlinear.
Also, the hallmark of TiC's mapping is extensive level morphing (that's why it was not so easy to track down players progression).

Glad to see you around here again, pal!
This project of yours is really awesome!
I feel like i invoke you somehow, because i'm playing Wonderful Doom right now, hahaha!

[Wraith777]

It's been quite a while since last time.. But, I've finally remembered what I really forgot:

                                           Heretic

 

Well, what can I say: it's a lot more linear than I remember it, especially the later episodes.

 

E1M9, E2M7, E3M3, E4M9, E5M7 - they all seemed so wide and open, yet all of them end up having linear progression (to various extent).

 

Key sequence is always Yellow-Green-Blue, no exceptions (well.. except that little key-optional area behind green door in E5M7, and it's pretty unique).

The only real sandbox maps are E1M4 and E2M4. Other similar maps may appear as such (E4M2, E5M7), but are almost completely linear.

 

The only real fork maps are E1M7 and E2M5, because they have multiple paths that are significantly different, unlike other nonlinear maps which mostly have double sided (symmetric) passes, that are identical.

 

Probably, the most unique map in a whole game is E4M4:
* it's the only collector map;
* it's the only non-boss map that doesn't have any keys;
* 1/3 of it is a secret area.

 

E1M1: linear
E1M2: linear
E1M3: linear
E1M4: nonlinear
E1M5: nonlinear
E1M6: linear
E1M7: nonlinear
E1M8: linear
E1M9: linear

 

E2M1: linear
E2M2: linear
E2M3: nonlinear
E2M4: nonlinear
E2M5: nonlinear
E2M6: linear
E2M7: linear
E2M8: Arena
E2M9: linear

 

E3M1: linear
E3M2: nonlinear
E3M3: linear
E3M4: linear
E3M5: linear
E3M6: linear
E3M7: linear
E3M8: Arena
E3M9: linear

 

E4M1: linear
E4M2: linear
E4M3: linear
E4M4: nonlinear
E4M5: linear
E4M6: linear
E4M7: linear
E4M8: linear
E4M9: linear

 

E5M1: linear
E5M2: linear
E5M3: linear
E5M4: linear
E5M5: linear
E5M6: nonlinear
E5M7: linear
E5M8: Arena
E5M9: linear

Edited November 30, 2021 by Wraith777

[Wraith777]

Again, it's time to.. go back in time and study the:

                                             Enjay DooM


The only 2 really nonlinear maps are E1M4 and E3M5.

E3M7 is still mostly a linear map, even considering those two spine wall grid areas.

The fact that majority of maps are completely linear makes the whole megawad feel more adventure styled (that's how I've always remembered it).

[Wraith777]

There's one old commercial release left to look at:

                           The Lost Episodes of Doom

This time it's a completely opposite situation: only 2 linear maps (E1M1 and E1M4).

There's surprisingly large amount of collector maps in all episodes.

So, most of the time you're free to go in any direction you want. If only there were enough monsters to shoot out there...

[Wraith777]

 

Well, this is my current state after doing it, actually - really mentally unstable...

                                               Eternal Doom

Nonlinear maps are (or may be) #04, 11, 19, 20, 22, 26, 28, 29, 30, 31

Most obnoxious - map12 (a forced backtrack right till the start - what's the point?)
Most conceptual - map25 (now that's the right backtrack here)
Most straight - map06 (zero detours)
Most nonlinear - map30 (giant collector)
Most Doom Cute - map31
Most unique progression - map20 ("key-arresting", need to add it to general diagram)

Actually, it gets really complicated to do it for such big sized maps. For example, maps 09 and 15 contain large portions with nonlinear progression, although in overall map scale those are relatively small areas.

Edited December 25, 2021 by Wraith777

[Polri]

Nice work!

Could it be that you mean map 25 "Beginner's end" as being the most conceptual map wit the right backtrack: "to know the end, find the beginning"?

[Wraith777]

On 12/24/2021 at 11:20 AM, Polri said:

Nice work!

Could it be that you mean map 25 "Beginner's end" as being the most conceptual map wit the right backtrack: "to know the end, find the beginning"?

Oops.. yes, it really should be map25..

[Zom-B]

Some of the graphs in the explanation remind me of something I've made for Alien Vendetta MAP20 Misri 10 years ago:

 

 

I've also started making walk-though maps for Hexen hubs 3 & 4, but they're still a work in progress. It's best viewed viewed full-screen on a 4K monitor. The graph on the top-right looks familiar, doesn't it?

 

Of Misri, I lost the svg. For Hexen, I can provide the svgs on request.

Edited December 26, 2021 by Zom-B

[Wraith777]

Well... I really wanted to make it a double feature (and much earlier), but I constantly can't get to replay Alien Vendetta (much to my *cough*.. Misri..).

 

Still, better late than, eh, later, so... H A P P Y  A N I V E R S A R Y, and welcome to...

 

 

First of all, I've finally developed a new convenient format for LPD's (as you see above) - now it's done in PowerPoint, which is easy with all those prefabs and auto alignments/snaps.

 

As for the 2002ADO LPDs: all I can say is that I'm really surprised how linear the maps are. That's what I call false memories... definitely remember a lot of nonlinear stuff here.. but no-o. Except E3M1 and E3M3 (those may be considered partially nonlinear) virtually all maps have strictly linear progression... which, of course, doesn't deny their high quality:)

[Wraith777]

By the way, since I'm working on the complete LPD manual (need to collect everything written in this topic + new/revised stuff), here is the new compact version of LPD memo.

 

There are 2 new indicators, both are mostly intended for LPD Form2, but may be included in Form4:

 

* Teleports - pretty self-explanatory, # corresponds to teleport pair number

 

* Backtrack - a relatively long sequence with Key Point in the end that may be completed first.

Example -

Player has 2 choices:

1) go to a switch that opens the door, then go to exit

2) go the long way to the exit area and clear everything before-head, then return to fork point, use the switch and go to exit

Note that in LPD classificaton backtrack is NOT considered a true option, so this example is classified as linear map