Favorite Source Port? (Multiple Choice Poll)

[toxicfluff]

DaniJ said:

In what respect? The only reason the D64TC team had soo many problems was because they developed their own game dll. This can't be done in any other port and naturally there will be problems as your basically recoding Doom.
For simple mods or wad editing I know of nothing that has been changed to break compatibility.

Vavoom also has game code separated from the engine in this way.

[Graf Zahl]

DaniJ said:

In what respect? The only reason the D64TC team had soo many problems was because they developed their own game dll.

What's the point of game DLL's if you practically cannot use them? Editing for bare JDoom is no fun because it lacks all nice editing features so if you want to do something cool you have to alter the code. Aside from the nearly incomprehensible XG it's just Doom with better graphics. So it's no surprise that so little mapping is going on.
There are basically 2 kinds of mappers: Those who stick to the traditional way (a.k.a. mapping with Vanilla Doom's capabilities only) and those who want to create cool maps with interesting new features - those are mostly using ZDoom due to the excellent scripting capabilities. I haven't seen much that takes a different perspective, Doom64 nonwithstanding. That mod had a very specific goal but after all it's not what you call a 'normal' project.
JDoom just isn't what your average mapper needs.

[Graf Zahl]

ToXiCFLUFF said:

Vavoom also has game code separated from the engine in this way.

And what's more, it doesn't even compile the game code to machine code - just some interpreted binary code. Although I know that this isn't the most time critical stuff it certainly doesn't help make the code run faster...
On the other hand, is there somebody out there who is actually using Vavoom?

[toxicfluff]

Graf Zahl said:

And what's more, it doesn't even compile the game code to machine code - just some interpreted binary code. Although I know that this isn't the most time critical stuff it certainly doesn't help make the code run faster...
On the other hand, is there somebody out there who is actually using Vavoom?

The Korax Heritage team are...

[iori]

Korax Heritage r0xx0rZ j00r b0xx0rZ, bout damn time something major (and good) came out for HeXen.

[toxicfluff]

iori said:

Korax Heritage r0xx0rZ j00r b0xx0rZ, bout damn time something major (and good) came out for HeXen.

Yeah, I really enjoyed Korax Mod, it really enhanced Hexen for me (a game I hadn't previously liked so much).

Shame they've switched to Vavoom for the main mod though, since although it's much more flexible than Jdoom it's nowhere near as polished. I suppose the 3d sloped roofs will help their towns look better at the least.

[DaniJ]

I think you've missed the point of Doomsdays game dlls. Think about it! What you essentially have is a quick and easy way of doing some serious modifications to Doom itself. What your doing is rewriting the underlying game that the engine then has to deal with. So if you do something daft and try to control an effect generated by the engine inside the dll, then your gonna run into problems as the engine evolves.

Also I really don't see how XG is incomprehensible.

Hmm, I wonder what this does:

Line Type {
ID = 2000;
Flags = "ltf_acive";
Flags2= "ltf_player_cross";
Class = "ltc_music";
Type = "lat_flip_timed_off";
Count = 1;
Time = 5;
Ip0 = "count2";
}

To me that looks like:
When the player crosses a line tagged 2000, start a timer and when it times out change the music to count2.

Those who stick to the traditional way (a.k.a. mapping with Vanilla Doom's capabilities only) and those who want to create cool maps with interesting new features - those are mostly using ZDoom due to the excellent scripting capabilities.

Hmm. I guess that kinda depends on your definition of a cool map. Doom was never meant to have story driven gameplay or the ability to "talk" with some mindless sprites... Doom is all about ACTION. It's a fast paced game of skill, dexterity and visceral fun. Show me some zDoom wads where scripting has improved the action and I might change my mind.

it doesn't even compile the game code to machine code - just some interpreted binary code

Your not seriously saying this makes a notable difference on my 2.5ghz 1g RAM MODERN PC? Maybe back in the day (pre 486DX) but I can't see it making much difference nowadays.

Vavoom is cool. I didn't know the game was in a dll though.
But Graf doesn't like it so I guess it must be crap :P

Although I may sound argumentative I'm just putting forward my pov.

[Graf Zahl]

DaniJ said:

I think you've missed the point of Doomsdays game dlls. Think about it! What you essentially have is a quick and easy way of doing some serious modifications to Doom itself. What your doing is rewriting the underlying game that the engine then has to deal with. So if you do something daft and try to control an effect generated by the engine inside the dll, then your gonna run into problems as the engine evolves.

Also I really don't see how XG is incomprehensible.

Hmm, I wonder what this does:

Line Type {
ID = 2000;
Flags = "ltf_acive";
Flags2= "ltf_player_cross";
Class = "ltc_music";
Type = "lat_flip_timed_off";
Count = 1;
Time = 5;
Ip0 = "count2";
}

To me that looks like:
When the player crosses a line tagged 2000, start a timer and when it times out change the music to count2.

And with a decent scripting language it would look like this:


script 1
{
delay(2000);
changemusic("count2");
}

which is precise and to the point, not to mention significantly more readable. XG is bloated and convoluted and especially when more complex things are done with it (like in Doom64) a totally incomprehensible mess. Figuring out those scripts took me days!

[DaniJ]

script 1
{
delay(2000);
changemusic("count2");
}

Yeah but that doesn't achieve half of what I posted. ???

How is this script activated? When the player crosses a linedef or when a monster does? Which linedef even? How many times can it be activated? Is this line active at the start of the level?

This just kinda proves my earlier point about how XG ISNT a scripting language.

[Cyb]

script activations are based on linedef flags and have no dependence on the script. lines can be activated by the player (a switch, bump or walkover), a monster, or a projectile hit or cross. It'll be activated based on the life you assign the script to with ACS_Execute (just like normal doom linedefs only more flexible). Repeatability is also based on a linedef flag, the avaliable ones are repeatable infinite times or repeatable one time. It's a trivial matter to make a script repeat any number of times as well. Lines are active at the start of the level, but you can easily activate them later by assigning the line and lineid and then assigning that line a special later on whenever you wish.

[toxicfluff]

DaniJ said:

Also I really don't see how XG is incomprehensible.

Hmm, I wonder what this does:

Line Type {
ID = 2000;
Flags = "ltf_acive";
Flags2= "ltf_player_cross";
Class = "ltc_music";
Type = "lat_flip_timed_off";
Count = 1;
Time = 5;
Ip0 = "count2";
}

Hmm. I guess that kinda depends on your definition of a cool map. Doom was never meant to have story driven gameplay or the ability to "talk" with some mindless sprites... Doom is all about ACTION. It's a fast paced game of skill, dexterity and visceral fun. Show me some zDoom wads where scripting has improved the action and I might change my mind.

XG is incomprehensible, especially for such a simple function as the one you posted above. As for scripting, there is plenty of Zdoom maps where it has complemented the gameplay well. After all, it can be used for such a wide range of things that it'd be strange if there wasn't.

[DaniJ]

Heh, heh. I swear guys, your missing the point of this entirely...

script activations are based on linedef flags and have no dependence on the script. lines can be activated by the player (a switch, bump or walkover), a monster, or a projectile hit or cross. It'll be activated based on the life you assign the script to with ACS_Execute (just like normal doom linedefs only more flexible). Repeatability is also based on a linedef flag, the avaliable ones are repeatable infinite times or repeatable one time. It's a trivial matter to make a script repeat any number of times as well. Lines are active at the start of the level, but you can easily activate them later by assigning the line and lineid and then assigning that line a special later on whenever you wish.

Yes I KNOW you can set all that stuff via linedef flags but how is that ANY different from writing it into a line class? Ok, if your lazy then I can see the benefit by just clicking a couple of boxes in Zeth but cmon people!?

Seriously, point me to those wads man! Every time I download a Zdoom wad with "Cool" new features, I either get bored of having to sift through reams of text or I decide to put my "helper" marines/dogs/imps out their misery myself...

The only decent thing I've seen was where you got points for each kill then a new wave of stonger baddies warps in, kill them, repeat on infinitum till death. Now thats fun. It wasn't even executed well either.

[Graf Zahl]

DaniJ said:

Heh, heh. I swear guys, your missing the point of this entirely...



Yes I KNOW you can set all that stuff via linedef flags but how is that ANY different from writing it into a line class? Ok, if your lazy then I can see the benefit by just clicking a couple of boxes in Zeth but cmon people!?

Seriously, point me to those wads man! Every time I download a Zdoom wad with "Cool" new features, I either get bored of having to sift through reams of text or I decide to put my "helper" marines/dogs/imps out their misery myself...

The only decent thing I've seen was where you got points for each kill then a new wave of stonger baddies warps in, kill them, repeat on infinitum till death. Now thats fun. It wasn't even executed well either.

The thing is that XG requires a bloated block of text for even the simplest features that can be accomplished with very few lines of code with real scripting. Granted, it can do a lot but the way it does it is just plain ugly.
And your last 2 paragraphs clearly show that you apparently don't play much ZDoom. Most ZDoom levels don't abuse the scripting abilities to the point of non-playability. And those few WADs often don't have the best reputation.
There's a major difference between innovative scripting and game-enhancing scripting.

[DaniJ]

Granted, it can do a lot but the way it does it is just plain ugly.

And this matters because?

Your correct I don't play much ZDoom. For the exact same reasons you guys don't play much jDoom - I've not found anything (yet) that interests me in this port.

Yes technically speaking it's got great scripting abilities, you might be able to put Strife monsters in your wads and it maybe is easier to do a whole lot of things. From what I've experienced of ZDoom wads they fall into two categories:

1) Run-o-the-mill vanila Doom level with a few tacked on obvious LOOK AT ME features (eg the pathetic use of slopes in most wads).
2) Over the top, script heavy marathon, where the main aim of the author is to impress you with their L337 scripting $k1ll$.

There is so much potential but I haven't seen it used in an ACTION based level.

So what wads should I play?

(bare in mind I like DOOM. NOT cheap TC's nor ripped sprites from mario world or some BADLY butcherd half cyberdemon, half Imp monstrocities)

[toxicfluff]

Your correct I don't play much ZDoom. For the exact same reasons you guys don't play much jDoom - I've not found anything (yet) that interests me in this port.

It's not necessarily the port you play for. It's the released content. It's silly to let port preferences get in the way of playing a good and worthwhile project.

1) Run-o-the-mill vanila Doom level with a few tacked on obvious LOOK AT ME features (eg the pathetic use of slopes in most wads).

and

There is so much potential but I haven't seen it used in an ACTION based level.

Vanilla Doom (and this style) levels are usually entirely built around action. And so are most levels for any port: 90% of the time, you are killing something.

How is the use of slopes pathetic? It's hardly like it's a gaudy, intrusive feature; it's primarily a visual feature, used for decorative purposes - which is a merit I'd expect you to immediately recognise given the nature of your your preferred port. I don't think it's deniable that having slopes makes the game look much less dated, and opens up a realm of new architectural possibilities. "LOOK AT ME, pathetic, impress you with their L337 scripting $k1ll$." - first of all, it seems you are using insult more than reason to support your argument. Secondly, every bit of released content for Doom or any port is aimed to impress one way or another - but to impress in terms of the quality of the product, not the author's skills.

[Graf Zahl]

DaniJ said:

And this matters because?

Your correct I don't play much ZDoom. For the exact same reasons you guys don't play much jDoom - I've not found anything (yet) that interests me in this port.

Yes technically speaking it's got great scripting abilities, you might be able to put Strife monsters in your wads and it maybe is easier to do a whole lot of things. From what I've experienced of ZDoom wads they fall into two categories:

1) Run-o-the-mill vanila Doom level with a few tacked on obvious LOOK AT ME features (eg the pathetic use of slopes in most wads).
2) Over the top, script heavy marathon, where the main aim of the author is to impress you with their L337 scripting $k1ll$.

There is so much potential but I haven't seen it used in an ACTION based level.

So what wads should I play?

(bare in mind I like DOOM. NOT cheap TC's nor ripped sprites from mario world or some BADLY butcherd half cyberdemon, half Imp monstrocities)

Obviously you are so strongly biased towards JDoom that you can't look at the issue from an objective point of view. Otherwise you won't write such nonsense. And it becomes more and more obvious that you simply don't like ZDoom - not because of the maps, just because it doesn't have JDoom's visual qualities.
If you want to play some really good action oriented ZDoom levels, here's a list of some truly great stuff:

Dark 7
Dark 7 Mission pack
Project Slipgate
Dissolution
The Torment and Torture series.
Kurt Kesler's KZDoom maps
The Darkest Hour + Mission pack (but this might put someone like you off because it replaces Doom's sprites, plus it features some really good use of slopes.)

None of those uses excessive scripting so they should suit your needs well.

Of course there's also the more complex stuff like:

007LTSD or Daedalus

but I don't think you'd like them. (I do, but sometimes I prefer a little more complexity.)

(and please don't name Teitenga. I fully agree that it's an overscripted mess that's no fun to play.)


So why do I rarely (to precise: for Doom64 only) use JDoom?
Simple answer: Most of my favorite WADs require Boom features or more. None of those work with JDoom so I cannot use it.

But honestly, I can live without that neat eye candy stuff like dynamic lights or models (which don't help much if a WAD has sprite replacements so they are useless in many cases anyway) so normally I stick to ZDoom unless a WAD requires something else.

[Lobo]

Quasar said:

It looks like EDGE is on the way out.

Actually The new version (1.28) is about to go public, either this week or next week.

There've been rampant rumors about the authors quitting for over a year now I think, so apparently either they have, or they're just working really slowly.

It was looking hairy for a while with DarkKnight seriously thinking about quitting (since he was the only member of the team still involved with the project) but a few months ago Andrew Apted (of glBSP fame) rejoined the project and things have picked up quite a bit since then.

And please Graf Zahl, don't start bashing Edge as usual just because you've seen the name in this post :)

[Graf Zahl]

Lobo said:

And please Graf Zahl, don't start bashing Edge as usual just because you've seen the name in this post :)

Don't worry. The only thing I'm bashing is the lack of interesting WADs for EDGE! :-P (But the same is true for JDoom, Legacy, Vavoom and some other ports. What does it tell us that the only ports that see some serious mapping are Boom (and its derivates) and ZDoom...)

[FireBastard]

DaniJ said:

Heh, heh. I swear guys, your missing the point of this entirely...

You bet! That's hitting the nail right on the head - it's not scripting, more like DECORATE (in zdoom terms).

Although scripting is nice, XG is a $hitloa& different from scripting. All the talk about "interpreted" is also pretty damn funny, considering how ACS is completely interpreted it certainly doesn't help make the code run faster.... What a strange criticsm to make, but that's typical for this forum.

Even now, ZDOOM doesn't come close to what you can do with XG. Let's see them "invent" new specials that are easily used just by setting them in your editor versus endless scripts. Yeah, it takes some learning to get the concept, but once learned and developed, takes on a whole new meaning. DOOM64 did that in spades.

In some ways this is like zdoom's DECORATE, which also is very weird to those who have never gotten into frames, etc. IOW, rather than take the time to learn something new and different (and don't let them convince us that scripting is "natural": pure bull). Not everyone approaches new concepts with an open mind.

Obviously Graf is so strongly biased towards ZDOOM that he can't look at the issue from an objective point of view.

Same ole Graf at work here. Don't let it bug you, since as you can see his remarks apply equally to zdoom :) I'd like to see both. JDOOM can obviously do ACS since his HEXEN code does just that. More a difference in port author philosophy - which I respect - not that it's not possible. Ditto for ZDOOM - relatively speaking it's graphically ugly - personally wish zdoom would get with the program on that one - but that's his decision. (And NO zdoomgl isn't the same thing, playing catchup is both tiresome, plus zdoomgl is changing the rules too).

IOW, let's cut the port authors some slack here vs what everyone is seeing as bashing. No need for that.

[iori]

JDOOM can obviously do ACS since his HEXEN code does just that.

doomsday can i guess...not Jdoom. The only thing thats loaded is jhexen.dll, so maybe its in there, but jdoom cant do ACS as of now.

[Graf Zahl]

FireBastard said:
You bet! That's hitting the nail right on the head - it's not scripting, more like DECORATE (in zdoom terms).

Although scripting is nice, XG is a $hitloa& different from scripting. All the talk about "interpreted" is also pretty damn funny, considering how ACS is completely interpreted it certainly doesn't help make the code run faster.... What a strange criticsm to make, but that's typical for this forum.

No, it's not different at all, it's just a shitload more complicated. XG used 10-30 lines to describe simple actions. A real scripting language can ofent do this in 1-5 lines.
BTW, where was any talk about 'interpreted' here? I most certainly didn't because such minor stuff as scripting is hardly preformance critical. How otherwise would it be possible for something like Legacy's FraggleScript to work without negative impact - and that interpreter is *really* slow - I once did some performance tests with it.

Even now, ZDOOM doesn't come close to what you can do with XG. Let's see them "invent" new specials that are easily used just by setting them in your editor versus endless scripts. Yeah, it takes some learning to get the concept, but once learned and developed, takes on a whole new meaning. DOOM64 did that in spades.

Just shows you have no clue whatsoever. Even setting up the simples combined actions requires one XG type for each one of them easily ending up in hundreds of lines of incomprehensible code (just try to read the scripts od Doom64c as an example)
ZDoom doesn't even need a means to describe new line actions because the existing ones are totally configurable so you can accomplish simple actions without ever writing a script. And if you do need one it's still a lot easier than figuring out how to accomplish the same stuff with XG.

In some ways this is like zdoom's DECORATE, which also is very weird to those who have never gotten into frames, etc.

I think now you are confusing XG with DED, right? Re-reading your post I have the feeling you don't really know what we are talking about, right?

IOW, rather than take the time to learn something new and different (and don't let them convince us that scripting is "natural": pure bull). Not everyone approaches new concepts with an open mind.

I don't take time to learn crap that's useless in normal editing if I can do it in a much more natural way. Plain and simple. Just don't jump to comclusions. I've read through all the XG scripts of Doom64 and understood all of them. Due to the totally inefficient nature of XG it took me days to get it all. In contrast, I needed half an afternoon to get through the much more complex and involved scripts of Daedalus. ACS is so much easier to read (and write)

Obviously Graf is so strongly biased towards ZDOOM that he can't look at the issue from an objective point of view.

Moron of the week utterance, heh?
I know all the source code of all the major source ports inside out and I know all their weaknesses and strengths. Sure, the graphics code of JDoom is truly impressive but on the game side it's mostly plain old vanilla Doom with very little enhancements - in fact the least enhancements of all major source ports.

Same ole Graf at work here. Don't let it bug you, since as you can see his remarks apply equally to zdoom :)

Same old FireBastard. Apparently you can't do without directly attacking someone.

I'd like to see both. JDOOM can obviously do ACS since his HEXEN code does just that. More a difference in port author philosophy - which I respect - not that it's not possible.

Heh, got you! First make sure you know what you are talking about. Here you mentioned one of the fundamental weaknesses of the current Doomsday architecture: the strict separation of the game code for the different games. Only JHexen supports ACS currently so all the neat enhancements are worthless to JDoom

Ditto for ZDOOM - relatively speaking it's graphically ugly - personally wish zdoom would get with the program on that one - but that's his decision. (And NO zdoomgl isn't the same thing, playing catchup is both tiresome, plus zdoomgl is changing the rules too).

So what? Granted, it is ugly but apparently those who are capable of apprectiating good gameplay don't need all that eye candy JDoom provides. There's a reason why there are almost no maps being done for all the other source port and if you even have a shred of intelligence you might get it but somehow I doubt it.

IOW, let's cut the port authors some slack here vs what everyone is seeing as bashing. No need for that.

Ok, shut up because apparently all you can do is bashing. I haven't seen anything else in this pile of blabbering.

[Fredrik]

Go Graf Zahl!

[FireBastard]

Same ole Graf. Just can't believe that he's wrong. You need reading glasses both for your own posts and what others write. I'm talking about philosophical concepts within the confines of what was being discussed - which is ... drum roll .. things Graf doesn't like because he can't imagine how they might be useful. I'm not going to make endless posts about DED or EDF or DDF or countless other methods (see VAVOOM), since that's not what this is all about. Instead, it's merely appreciation of other solutions (and that scripting does not address at all).

That you dare to accuse me of personal attacks is funny since that's what you do every single time anyone or anything is contrary to your POV. Hint reread your own post to see how hostile you get. If anything I merely said what you said, except of course it was the opposite from you POV. You should be able to take what you dole out so freely, yes? Err, no right?

Btw, what I meant about the JDOOM code is that the author is perfectly capable of doing ACS scripting, not that JDOOM per se now has ACS. So the gotcha is on you. You are so damn literal the forest can't be seen by you because of all the trees in the way. Don't be so desperate to spit on anything or anyone that disagrees with you. Think outside of the small box.

Complicated is in the eye of the beholder. What you say is definitely a shitload (your words kid). How you want to now say that XG is like scripting (like ACS) is beyond me. You said: it's not different at all. That's bull Graf. It's more like DECORATE, or do you want to call that scripting too? Think conceptually, not in absolutes. So you think ugly is fine? Well the world around you doesn't think so - otherwise why do all the new games spend so much time on looking cool(er).

I really don't care how much source code you looked at. Has absolutely nothing to do with if you are right or wrong. Reminds me of the boast you made that you could evaluate a nodes builder by looking at the code. That was damn funny since there is nobody else that would have the gall to make that claim. But you did. Rather than again resorting to personal attacks take the time to discuss this in the objective manner you claim others can not do.

So far all I see is a complete disrespect for anything you don't like. That cuts 2 ways boy. You give no respect, you get no respect and you deserve no respect.

Keep it clean Graf and don't be such a baby. Learn to admit you can't possible speak for everyone, that you are merely 1 opinion (not final at all), nor can you possibly know everything at all (yes that is actually a possibility). Remember the other huge mistake you made (which showed you made stuff up) claiming glbsp was based on "old" code, thinking the code was similar to BSP2.3. Big raspberry on that one.

[Rellik]

You know this arguement has been had about 20 times before. After a while it just turns into blah blah blah blah....

[toxicfluff]

Ok, I'm going to stay out of personal opinion based stuff here, and just stick to facts.

FireBastard said:

Btw, what I meant about the JDOOM code is that the author is perfectly capable of doing ACS scripting, not that JDOOM per se now has ACS.

Uh, you forget one vital point: ACS was already in Hexen - it has nothing to do with Skyjake. In Zdoom's case, ACS has been modified heavily - there is a hell of a lot of functions which weren't in it's original incarnation.

When talking about "interpreted", he was talking about Vavoom's progs.dat style stuff, which is basically the game code. NOT a scripting language made to utilise game code, which was what you were comparing it to.

[Graf Zahl]

FireBastard said:

Same ole Graf. Just can't believe that he's wrong.

I'm not wrong. You are.

You need reading glasses both for your own posts and what others write. I'm talking about philosophical concepts within the confines of what was being discussed - which is ... drum roll .. things Graf doesn't like because he can't imagine how they might be useful. I'm not going to make endless posts about DED or EDF or DDF or countless other methods (see VAVOOM), since that's not what this is all about. Instead, it's merely appreciation of other solutions (and that scripting does not address at all).
[/quote]In other words, stuff nobody was talking about here. So who needs reading glasses???

That you dare to accuse me of personal attacks is funny since that's what you do every single time anyone or anything is contrary to your POV. Hint reread your own post to see how hostile you get. If anything I merely said what you said, except of course it was the opposite from you POV. You should be able to take what you dole out so freely, yes? Err, no right?

Every single post of you I can remember is offensive and aggressive in a rude manner. So don't expect me to be polite to you. You aren't either

Btw, what I meant about the JDOOM code is that the author is perfectly capable of doing ACS scripting, not that JDOOM per se now has ACS. So the gotcha is on you. You are so damn literal the forest can't be seen by you because of all the trees in the way. Don't be so desperate to spit on anything or anyone that disagrees with you. Think outside of the small box.

Hot you again! As Toxicfluff already mentioned, ACS in JHexen is 100% identical with the one Raven did originally. Not a single change has been done to it. I'm not doubting Skyjake's coding skills. Obviously he is a very talented programmer, otherwise he wouldn't have been possible to write such an impressive renderer - but that doesn't change the fact that he practically didn't touch the game logic at all. In all 3 DLL's most of it is as unaltered as one can imagine. As several people already stated that is not the goal of Doomsday. That's ok but again it was never the point of the discussion going on

Complicated is in the eye of the beholder. What you say is definitely a shitload (your words kid). How you want to now say that XG is like scripting (like ACS) is beyond me. You said: it's not different at all. That's bull Graf.
It's more like DECORATE, or do you want to call that scripting too? Think conceptually, not in absolutes. So you think ugly is fine? Well the world around you doesn't think so - otherwise why do all the new games spend so much time on looking cool(er).

Just proves perfectly that you have absolutely no fucking clue what's going on here. Again I have the feeling that you don't even know what XG is! Just to refresh your lacking memory:

-DECORATE defines items (things) that can be placed in maps. That's equivalent with Doomsday's DED. Both formats have totally different goals so they aren't even comparable to begin with.
-XG defines line specials. In a Hexen-format map most of the possible options exist by default so for a lot of stuff you don't even need it and for more complex stuff XG is a (very clumsy) equivalent to scripting. With a lot of work you can achieve some stuff that can be done with scripting but due to its nature it's much more limited, not to mention (repeatedly) creates significantly more code (approx 7-10 times as much as ACS or FraggleScript.) If that isn't bloated I don't know what is.

I really don't care how much source code you looked at. Has absolutely nothing to do with if you are right or wrong. Reminds me of the boast you made that you could evaluate a nodes builder by looking at the code. That was damn funny since there is nobody else that would have the gall to make that claim. But you did. Rather than again resorting to personal attacks take the time to discuss this in the objective manner you claim others can not do.

Obviously you are not a programmer so your words regarding this are worth shit. Apparently you have no idea what a good programmer can read from a source code.

And please don't lecture me about objectivity. That's something you seem to lack completely. As I already mentioned, you are always rude and aggressive in a totally unacceptable way.

So far all I see is a complete disrespect for anything you don't like. That cuts 2 ways boy. You give no respect, you get no respect and you deserve no respect.

So far all I see from you is a complete disrespect for a civilized discussion. Just because I once dared to challenge your (sacred?) beliefs you seem to have a perverse need to attack me every time you see fit. Why should I give you the slightest bit of respect? You discuss like a total moron.

ToXiCFLUFF said:
When talking about "interpreted", he was talking about Vavoom's progs.dat style stuff, which is basically the game code. NOT a scripting language made to utilise game code, which was what you were comparing it to.

Thanks for clarifying this. Just shows once more that he doesn't even know what he's talking about.



For the record: This will be my last post in this thread. I really don't like arguning with people who clearly show a lack of knowledge but compensate this with rudeness.

[DaniJ]

OMG when did this thread turn into a slagging match???

Nice to know SOMEONE can see my pov though.

No Graf I'm no biased at all. I can only base my opinion on what my own experiences tell me. Thanks for posting that list, I'll look into this over the weekend.

-XG defines line specials.

EXACTLY. XG is NOT a scripting language! And obviously any attempts to use it as such are gonna end up long winded. Some of the XG types the D64TC crew wrote are VERY messy and a lot of it could be done a LOT simpler.

Of course I appreciate the difference slopes can make to a map, only I've not seen a single wad where they have been used creatively. "So instead of stairs I made a slope" well woop-de-doo that makes a lot difference.

Your point about 90% of vanila Doom wads being about action is precisely MY POINT. Instead of using ACS to enhance the action, the majority of ZDoom people decide to tack on some dodgy story or use acs to create ded simple, shit looking weather effects.

Soon jDoom will get acs, poly objects etc. So I should imagine a LOT of people will switch from ZDoom to jDoom for editing.

If we where to be 100% correct Graf it was YOU who started attacking me for my preference towards jDoom.

I must admit though that you do tend to try and position yourself as the font of all knowledge in the majority of your posts. I think the reason you get a lot of peoples backs up is because of the way you simply dismiss other peoples opinions as nonsence.

[toxicfluff]

DaniJ said:

Of course I appreciate the difference slopes can make to a map, only I've not seen a single wad where they have been used creatively. "So instead of stairs I made a slope" well woop-de-doo that makes a lot difference.

Since that is a purely aesthetic point, it could be applied to a lot of other things, so I'm not really going to discuss it. But I myself (although I am primarily a Legacy (i.e. flak bait on DW:) and Jdoom user (for vanilla maps) do use Zdoom a lot since it has what? 10x (if not more) the released content of any other port? And in my experience a lot of the wads use slopes to embellish and enrich a level's look and feel, with archways, sloped landscape, girders and trims etc, After all, if this kind of stuff was useless, it wouldn't be as widely used as it has since there was first FPS engines to support it. I mean other ports with better graphics still look dated as hell to me - no matter how many bells and whistles - when they have blocky levels built out of perfectly flat floors and ceilings.

DaniJ said:Your point about 90% of vanila Doom wads being about action is precisely MY POINT. Instead of using ACS to enhance the action, the majority of ZDoom people decide to tack on some dodgy story or use acs to create ded simple, shit looking weather effects.[/B]

I must say, I've played a fair amount of maps which excel in these areas. I can't really be fucked to go through them, but I would recommend trying out some of the maps mentioned in Graf's list - there's certainly some maps in there which I reckon would have something for everybody. There's absolutely nothing wrong with making decisions based on experience (it is, after all, the only certain thing) but there's also nothing wrong with expanding the pool of experience you base your decisions on.


//Edit: Out of curiosity Graf, what kind of work do you do exactly ?

[iori]

ahh the wonders of what people can say when all they have are open mouths and closed ears...

I have to quote this...

Soon jDoom will get acs, poly objects etc. So I should imagine a LOT of people will switch from ZDoom to jDoom for editing.

Well, since zdoomgl is becoming alot more like Jdoom in looks, and keeping Zdooms funtionality, why would they switch? There is no particularily beneficial thing AFAIK that would convert the zdoom guys, especially not the Vets who swear by it.

[edit] why does the smiley 'X D' (without the space) type this instead? "I AM A MORON I AM A MORON"...

[Graf Zahl]

ToXiCFLUFF said:

//Edit: Out of curiosity Graf, what kind of work do you do exactly ?

I'm a programmer in a small game development company. Most of our work is localization and cell phone games. The localization part alone requires me to work a lot with other peoples' source - which is often extremely badly written or commented. So a basic part of my job has to do with analyzing said source and figuring out what it does and how it works. I hope that clears a few things up.