Why do a ton of older megawads always have slaughter maps occupying the map32 slot?

[Quagsire]

A weird and probably stupid question, but I have plenty of reason behind it. Today, I got to the 32nd level of Scythe 2. I didn't imagine it being THIS bad (in regard to the enemy count), but it was. It was far worse than what I could've imagined. Too many of the same enemies, including archviles and revenants. I decided I've had enough of it, and moved on to another different megawad. I got to the secret levels again, and proceeded. Once again, a slaughter map that wasn't AS annoying as the first, but still a slaughter map regardless. I thought to myself, "How many of these levels use the same concept?" Then I went exploring for ANOTHER old megawad: Alien Vendetta. I decided to just skip straight to MAP32 this time, and once again it was a slaughter map. Just as annoying as the first, if not worse than it.

 

Now the question floats before me and you: Why? What compelled people back then to follow this stupid trend of making the second secret map of each megawad a slaughter fest? Why are they so punishing? Answers are appreciated, and desired as well. I cannot for the love of me figure this out at all.

[wintertowns]

Maybe because of the precedent set in The Plutonia Experiment? Both the intermission text of map 31 and map 32 of Plutonia brags on about putting the player trough the most difficult challenge possible. Intermission before map 31: "You've found the second-hardest level we got. Hope you have a saved game a level or two previous. If not, be prepared to die aplenty. For master Marines only". 32 follows it up: "Betcha wondered just what was the hardest map we had ready for ya? Now you know. No one gets out alive". I don't know my wad history well enough, but "Go 2 It" has to be one of the first real murdermaps? 

 

My guess is that the success of Final Doom probably contributed to fostering the culture of having the bonus/secret levels attempt to break any player who dared enter. The TNT guys seems to have taken a different approach in Evilution though, as the secret levels in that wad are more "regular" levels.

Edited May 11, 2018 by wintertowns

[Quagsire]

It was fine when Plutonia did it, but having slaughter maps for almost every secret level is not only lazy thinking, but also extremely stupid.

[leodoom85]

2 hours ago, AbsorbedHatch said:

It was fine when Plutonia did it, but having slaughter maps for almost every secret level is not only lazy thinking, but also extremely stupid.

Well, not every 32-ish level is slaughtery, like the Doom 2 one or in Bloodstain, Mayhem 1500 or other wads that I can't remember. Those are hard maps but in no way slaughtery...

[Aquila Chrysaetos]

Epic 2 (first example I could think of) didn't follow this example. Frankly, MAP31 was harder than MAP32, primarily because of the last room. The only real slaughter map in that one is 29.

Edited May 11, 2018 by Aquila Chrysaetos

[Obsidian]

3 hours ago, AbsorbedHatch said:

It was fine when Plutonia did it, but having slaughter maps for almost every secret level is not only lazy thinking, but also extremely stupid.

 

Well that's just, like, your opinion man.

[Deadwing]

It's just a tradition. Some other wads use the secrets slots for very different maps (like the wolfenstein maps for DII), and some use as slots for outtakes/isolated maps that didn't find a place anywhere lol

 

Also, secret maps can be skipped. I usually don't play them because 30 maps in a megawads is already a lot for me >.>

Edited May 11, 2018 by Deadwing

[Tristan]

Secret levels are supposed to be something interesting, a bit out of left-field. "Normal" maps in secret slots aren't necessarily bad but it's disappointing. Plutonia did its secret maps well, one had a cool gimmick and the other was among the pioneering maps of the slaughter genre. Imaginative, doubt first-time players saw it coming: Good.

 

Then everyone started copying it. Not only is that unimaginative, it also makes it predictable. Oh look we found map32, oh look it's got 1000+ monsters what a surprise. For me it defeats the point of the secret levels. Give me something cool that we don't usually see in Doom. Fortunately it seems a lot of recent megawads have bucked the trend - or they'll at least pair the slaughter gameplay with some zany theme (Valiant 31 springs to mind)

Edited May 11, 2018 by Eris Falling

[rehelekretep]

must resist urge to comment on slaughtermap hate

[Aquila Chrysaetos]

As I remember, TNT MAP31 was made by the Casalis, and it was (especially for the set) extremely unique, and MAP32 seemed to be somewhat generic.

I didn't very much like TNT except for MAP31 because the set was shit it seemed to be of lower quality than Doom/Doom II/Plutonia.

But, you know, it's just, like, my opinion.

[SOSU]

Maybe because Scythe 2 and Alien Vendetta turn into slaughterwads after the first few maps 😜

[Memfis]

Yeah, it's a really boring and unimaginative tradition, and it's always a shame to see new big megawads like Back to Saturn X following it. I think for many players getting a bonus slaughter map is a punishment, not a prize, so I don't fully understand why people do this. "You worked so hard trying to find the secret exit, now it's time to suffer!"

[leodoom85]

44 minutes ago, Aquila Chrysaetos said:

Epic 2 (first example I could think of) didn't follow this example. Frankly, MAP31 was harder than MAP32, primarily because of the last room. The only real slaughter map in that one is 29.

IKR and you could count map 25 too...map 32 was the "coffee break" map after the hardship that was map 31

[Aquila Chrysaetos]

Off the top of my head, my favorite maps were 11, 14, 18, 19, and 21, and I remember 21 was the easiest of those.

I actually never technically completed it because I had to use god2 on MAP29 and kept it through 30.

But 31 wasn't that bad until you reached the last room, then you were swarmed by knights and barons and you have to kill them and the two cybers you'd inevitably unleash on yourself. I always saved there because of that room. 32 was a walk in the park. Then came 16 and that one was pretty hard, too.

Edited May 11, 2018 by Aquila Chrysaetos

[Walter confetti]

I don't remember that ALL the old megawads have a slaughtermap on MAP32...

With old megawads I assume you meaning stuff like heroes 2 or the memento mori series... something made before the year 2000, I think...

[Vermil]

Could Doom2's Map32 be considered a 'slaughter map'?

[Quagsire]

5 minutes ago, Vermil said:

Could Doom2's Map32 be considered a 'slaughter map'?

Not enough enemies to be considered one, so no.

[NuMetalManiak]

I'd honestly rather have a slaughtermap in a secret slot rather than a slaughtermap at/near the end of a normal megawad.

[baja blast rd.]

1 hour ago, Memfis said:

Yeah, it's a really boring and unimaginative tradition, and it's always a shame to see new big megawads like Back to Saturn X following it. I think for many players getting a bonus slaughter map is a punishment, not a prize, so I don't fully understand why people do this. "You worked so hard trying to find the secret exit, now it's time to suffer!"

 

Here's a thought: Maybe the people making the megawad like slaughtermaps, or are at least amenable to them, and wanted one too. You really have to imagine that if they disliked them in principle, there wouldn't be one included at all.

 

What I don't fully understand why you and others don't seem to understand this. Wads aren't made exclusively to please you. Sometimes they aren't made that way at all. And that's perfect, because if a mapper, or a team of them, is going to invest hundreds of hours of their time working on a megawad, they sure as hell should include what they like. 

Edited May 11, 2018 by rdwpa

[leodoom85]

21 minutes ago, rdwpa said:

opinion

Hey, don't blame bad players, 'kay?

Just kidding.

 

Yeah. The mapper can do the hell that it wants for secret maps, being the hardest shit ever or something more clever for a change of pace.

That's why the OP assumption is wrong because, as I said, not all secret maps have that mindset as standard.

Edited May 11, 2018 by leodoom85
Phone typing sucks for punctuation...

[rehelekretep]

[Tristan]

52 minutes ago, rdwpa said:

 if a mapper, or a team of them, is going to invest hundreds of hours of their time working on a megawad, they sure as hell should include what they like. 

 

Sure, but then why stop at secret levels? If you're a fan of slaughter, why wouldn't you put them in the main maplist? Hell, make a slaughterwad and then include non-slaughter maps in the secret slots. For me personally, preference on gameplay alone doesn't even come into this topic - normal/predictable secret levels are disappointing (normal as in, exactly like the rest of the megawad), and the MAP32 slaughter has often been something that falls under predictable, the only upside is that it keeps them out of the way for those of us who are less keen on the genre. Or maybe that's it.

edit: ok, I concede that I kinda answered my own question there 😛

Edited May 11, 2018 by Eris Falling

[Tristan]

Idea to please everyone: If you absolutely must have a slaughtermap as your MAP32, and then MAP31 is a Cool and Innovative secret map, hooray. The exit to MAP32 isn't hidden though, in fact it's right next to the normal exit, and then it's just a simple choice. Wouldn't surprise me if it's been done before, but maybe it needs to be used more often.

[Fonze]

Map32 is the ultimate skippable map; why not put the most experimental or controversal map in that slot? Also, why not use that extra-skippable slot for making something you truly enjoy without fear of it upsetting players for being on the "mandatroy" path? This is the beauty of secret maps.

[Benjogami]

They probably put slaughtermaps there so that people wouldn't complain about them.

 

I guess they fucked up.

[Aquila Chrysaetos]

2 minutes ago, Benjogami said:

They probably put slaughtermaps there so that people wouldn't complain about them.

 

I guess they fucked up.

Can't please everyone.

[Nine Inch Heels]

8 hours ago, AbsorbedHatch said:

"How many of these levels use the same concept?"

None of them. The slot 32 maps are all different in some way shape or form. Just because it's the same genre it doesn't mean the maps are exactly same in terms of concept.

 

8 hours ago, AbsorbedHatch said:

What compelled people back then to follow this stupid trend of making the second secret map of each megawad a slaughter fest?

Would you rather the slaughtermaps be in slot 11? And why is that trend "stupid" to begin with? You say you have plenty of reason for asking these questions, yet you don't explain any of it.

 

8 hours ago, AbsorbedHatch said:

Why are they so punishing?

Because you're not good at playing them.

 

 

[leodoom85]

IMO, I like to search and play the secret levels, regardless of difficulty, themes and aesthetics because some maps can offer a nice gameplay.

[leodoom85]

Actually, what do you consider older wads, @AbsorbedHatch?

Before year 2000? 2010? 2 years ago? That got me thinking...

[Aquila Chrysaetos]

I think a good question here might be why are you playing slaughter wads if you hate them.

Scythe and Scythe 2 are (as best as I can remember) primarily slaughter wads.

AV is a slaughter wad.

It doesn't really come across as a surprise that their secret levels are slaughter maps.

Unloved became rather slaughter-ish toward the end, and it, like those, is fondly remembered.

 

Go 2 It was, I believe, the Ur Example of a slaughter-type, and as far as they go, it's my favorite.

However, I must concede that I'm not very good at slaughter maps myself, so I tend to avoid them.