Why do a ton of older megawads always have slaughter maps occupying the map32 slot?

[valkiriforce]

I think my all-time favorite secret level would be Doorway To Quake from Requiem - short, sweet level with an awesome gimmick. Those blue portals and vanilla effects including the sliding door and room-over-room effect really gave me the impression I was somewhere outside of Doom's usual settings.

 

Concerning slaughter maps in place of secret levels, I don't feel I mind them...I do think the potential for some really interesting "out there" ideas could be used to better effect though, since a slaughter-type setting doesn't feel as out there to me unless it were a part of a more casual level set. But hey - I've also been guilty of the 32 slot being chock-full of difficult monsters, so some people are just in the mood for that.

[Scotty]

*makes regular wad with a slaughtermap in slot 01 to weed out all the whiners*

[Nine Inch Heels]

8 minutes ago, Aquila Chrysaetos said:

why are you playing slaughter wads if you hate them.

Wrong question. Plutonia is not a slaughter WAD, it's just a secret map that qualifies as slaughter, and maybe some bits and pieces here and there. Plutonia as a whole is not slaughter. The actual question is why non-slaughterWADs have secret maps in them which are meant to be slaughter, and the simple answer is because those maps were the most difficult at the time for most people, and they didn't fit with the rest of the megawad in terms of gameplay for the most part, therefore they have been put behind a wall of secrets to keep them away from the normal progression. And that's all there is to it.

 

It's not uncommon for video games of any kind to have the most difficult stuff in secrets. Some large maps even put significantly harder fights into areas which are optional. The concept is good, because nobody's forced to play those sections unless they really want to.

 

8 minutes ago, Aquila Chrysaetos said:

Scythe and Scythe 2 are (as best as I can remember) primarily slaughter wads

No, they're not. Most of the maps have very little to do with what slaughter has been perceived as at the time. It's the good handful of maps at the end which lend themselves towards "quantity based slaughter", yet most of it is rather dull and low-key, IMO.

8 minutes ago, Aquila Chrysaetos said:

AV is a slaughter wad

No, it's not.

[spd7693]

I think most map makers think the hardness is in the monster count. Even the Casali brothers. They just put a lot of monsters around and make the player think "Well, beat this map!" This is the most common thought. That's why I'm reluctant to even make slaughter maps. Sometimes maps are difficult also because of the monster placement, the monster usage and the health/ammo balance. (I hate the latter, Mount Pain In The *ss is a clear example of that.) The root main goal of Doom is to reach the exit, not to kill as many enemies as possible - the latter is optional. That's in every iD Software game. So slaughter maps are basically pointless to me. Having enemies in every single sector of the map, that's alright. But not have big groups of high damage enemies. These create the effect of too many cooks spoiling the soup and the maps disappoint. What's the point of having great architecture and cool textures if you have just monsters that shoot at you from everywhere and don't let you look at it? Honestly, I'd prefer playing an ugly map with just enough monsters and some clever ideas and surprise surprise, I give Habitat as an example because I just love how the doors open right in front of me. You call it bad, I call it tactical. And let's not talk about it, I know the majority of you will bully the s*** out of me for these words. 

 

Yeah, I know I put armies of hell knights/barons of hell at times, but that's not as harsh as having an army of mancubi and mayne even cyberdemons and pain elementals... Like I said, slaughter maps are pointless. Mazes, platforming, and especially enemies in the best possible places - that's what a doom map needs. Of course, architecture and texturing too, but again... I don't need to repeat myself. 

[Aquila Chrysaetos]

I wasn't attempting to suggest Plutonia was slaughter, only Go 2 It was.

Since the rest of my argument has been torn down, I shall concede and stand aside.

[Fonze]

5 minutes ago, spd7693 said:

And let's not talk about it, I know the majority of you will bully the s*** out of me for these words. 

 

Why not, so you can never learn? Maybe you're definition of "bully" is fallacious; maybe the majority of the people you've interacted with thus far have been trying to educate you. But nah, doominati and bullies say mazes, tediousness, and no height variation that affects the gameplay are bad level design.

[spd7693]

^ 

 

No, no, no... I didn't mean that. I meant that the majority of you hate Habitat. As far as I know this is the most hated map ever. Not what you said. I literally meant bullied, didn't mean educated. 

[Nine Inch Heels]

6 minutes ago, spd7693 said:

most map makers think the hardness is in the monster count. Even the Casali brothers.

Ignoring the fact that this claim is begging for a citation, It's not the monstercount that made "go 2 it" as hard as it was at the time, it was actually the placement of these monsters that made it stand out.

 

8 minutes ago, spd7693 said:

They just put a lot of monsters around and make the player think "Well, beat this map!" This is the most common thought.

Anybody who makes slaughtermaps these days doesn't just flood fill maps with enemies without rhyme or reason, unless of course it's supposed to be something like a parody, or a grindfest, or the mapper doesn't know what to do, basically.

 

10 minutes ago, spd7693 said:

The root main goal of Doom is to reach the exit, not to kill as many enemies as possible - the latter is optional.

That depends on who you ask. Some people are completionists who want their 100% kills, -secrets, and even -items.

 

11 minutes ago, spd7693 said:

What's the point of having great architecture and cool textures if you have just monsters that shoot at you from everywhere and don't let you look at it?

Kill first, look at textures later.

 

12 minutes ago, spd7693 said:

Habitat as an example because I just love how the doors open right in front of me. You call it bad

The idea that somewhere a door opens and players suddenly get attacked isn't what made habitat bad. It's that the map consists almost entirely out of corridors that makes habitat one of the worst iWAD maps of all time, if not the worst of them all.

 

14 minutes ago, spd7693 said:

Like I said, slaughter maps are pointless.

No, they're not.

 

14 minutes ago, spd7693 said:

Mazes, platforming, and especially enemies in the best possible places - that's what a doom map needs.

What a map needs is subject to the eye of the beholder. I like platforming, most people hate it. C'est la vie...

[spd7693]

13 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

Kill first, look at textures later.

 

And unnecessarily lose 20 minutes of your life. Nice logic. 

 

14 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

It's not the monstercount that made "go 2 it" as hard as it was at the time, it was actually the placement of these monsters that made it stand out.

 

I'm not talking about Go 2 It only. It is unnecessarily difficult. Same is with a quarter of the maps in Plutonia - including 1, 4, 13, 16, 19 and 28. As well as Memento Mori's Showdown and Diehard, both are made by the Casali brothers. 

 

17 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

That depends on who you ask. Some people are completionists who want their 100% kills, -secrets, and even -items.

 

I include myself in this number as well. But I prefer different sorts of challenges obviously. Not slaughter. 

 

And that slaughter maps are pointless is my personal opinion. Please don't use your position to disrespect me as you keep doing from day one. I don't care if you're a female speedrunner - a rare breed of people, at least according to what I see very few women even play Doom - when you don't respect other people. 

 

[Tristan]

Doom II MAP09 has more monsters than any map in Plutonia - including Go 2 It. Most Plutonia maps don't even have 100 monsters.

[spd7693]

^ 

 

Only if you count *ss   lost souls. Not telling that this map also isn't unnecessarily difficult. It is. But nice point. 

[[McD] James]

I'm not a fan of slaughter maps, and prefer it when secret levels are something quirky and different (a good example being Counterattack's amazing secret level), but it's silly to call them pointless. If you don't care for what maps 31/32 are about, then skipping them shouldn't in any way detract from your enjoyment of the megawad. 

 

50 minutes ago, spd7693 said:

Mazes, platforming, and especially enemies in the best possible places - that's what a doom map needs. 

 

 

Not all Doom maps need to be mazes, and many of us don't care for platforming in Doom.

Edited May 11, 2018 by Ajora

[Arctangent]

4 minutes ago, spd7693 said:

And unnecessarily lose 20 minutes of your life. Nice logic. 

I'm not sure why you're on a forum about video games when you consider playing a video game for 20 minutes a loss of 20 minutes. Seems like your priorities are pretty twisted.

 

4 minutes ago, spd7693 said:

And that slaughter maps are pointless is my personal opinion. Please don't use your position to disrespect me as you keep doing from day one. I don't care if you're a female speedrunner - a rare breed of people, at least according to what I see very few women even play Doom - when you don't respect other people. 

Yes, I'm sure you're being so respectful in the first place by pissing all over others' hobbies and interests and treating people as if they're some rare breed of horse. Why, why would anyone lack respect for someone like you? It's inconceivable.

[Not Jabba]

9 minutes ago, spd7693 said:

 

And unnecessarily lose 20 minutes of your life. Nice logic. 

 

I'm not talking about Go 2 It only. It is unnecessarily difficult. Same is with a quarter of the maps in Plutonia - including 1, 4, 13, 16, 19 and 28. As well as Memento Mori's Showdown and Diehard, both are made by the Casali brothers. 

 

And that slaughter maps are pointless is my personal opinion. Please don't use your position to disrespect me as you keep doing from day one. I don't care if you're a female speedrunner - a rare breed of people, at least according to what I see very few women even play Doom - when you don't respect other people. 

 

 

2 minutes ago, spd7693 said:

Not telling that this map also isn't unnecessarily difficult. It is.

 

Have you ever considered that maybe other people have different skill levels than you? Or that other people are allowed to express their opinions too?

[Quagsire]

I went into MAP32 thinking it would be your average traditional map, and it appeared that way (to some extent). I thought it would play similarly to Warrens from udoom, plain and simple. I didn't expect it to be a game of Archvile hunting season.

[[McD] James]

3 minutes ago, AbsorbedHatch said:

I went into MAP32 thinking it would be your average traditional map, and it appeared that way (to some extent). I thought it would play similarly to Warrens from udoom, plain and simple. I didn't expect it to be a game of Archvile hunting season.

 

A life where everything that happens is precisely what you expect seems very prosaic to me. 

Edited May 11, 2018 by Ajora

[Nine Inch Heels]

5 minutes ago, spd7693 said:

And unnecessarily lose 20 minutes of your life. Nice logic.

So, loosing 20 minutes of your life by looking at textures that don't even try to kill you is better logic then?

 

6 minutes ago, spd7693 said:

It is unnecessarily difficult

It turns out that a lot of people enjoy beating a difficult map much more than beating a map that doesn't even put up a fight. Besides, "go 2 it" doesn't even qualify as "hard" by today's standards anymore. By the same virtue, most (if not all) of OG Doom's maps qualify as "fluff" these days.

 

10 minutes ago, spd7693 said:

Please don't use your position to disrespect me as you keep doing from day one.

Please stop playing the victim card as you do from day one.

 

12 minutes ago, spd7693 said:

I don't care if you're a female speedrunner - a rare breed of people, at least according to what I see very few women even play Doom - when you don't respect other people.

And I don't care about your personal failed history with that metal band you were in, for that matter. So now that the formalities are out of the way, let me tell you one thing that apparently you didn't learn yet: Disagreement and disrespect are not the same thing. Just because I disagree with your opnions, your design choices, the way you perceive the quality of your maps it doesn't mean I am an unkind nasty bitch looking to insult you at all times. Perhaps it's time you grew up already.

[Quagsire]

No like, it's mostly because it isn't the norm to just make a quirky secret level and then the next is just pure hell cranked to the max setting. I can't even beat it due to lack of ammo!

[Nine Inch Heels]

5 minutes ago, AbsorbedHatch said:

I can't even beat it due to lack of ammo

It would appear this is a not too uncommon issue when approaching slaughtermaps though. Ammo in inconvenient locations (behind enemy lines, for example), or a strong emphasis on infighting for the purpose of ammo conservation are usually par for the course. That said, more often than not it's probably a good idea to, for example, just IDDQD the map, have a good look around to see what's where, and then formulating a strategy or route through the map that is the most likely to yield a favourable outcome.

[Fonze]

I'm glad so many people posted so now I don't really have to, but I will anyway in hopes this helps.

 

First, and happily NiH said it better than i would have: 

 

10 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

Disagreement and disrespect are not the same thing.

 

Now, Spd, look at the likes counters for various posts; you see how your posts have gotten 0 so far right? (I say so far because this semi-dickish post may net you some sympathy likes) In all likelihood, your posts accruing 0 while posts disagreeing with you garnering more is fairly indicative that you're getting something fundamentally wrong that people either disagree with or just don't agree with; likes are often used to say "+1 I agree" here. In this case, it is your views on maps and what they need or whatever. Do you know how many people have come to these forums with your same attitude and who have grown out of said attitude? You're not stupid for holding caveman views, but you do have a lot of catching up to do wrt current community standards, as well as modern gameplay. This isn't the 90s anymore, maps shouldn't include mazes, the maps themselves should be the maze. Never mind that the "fun" bar has been raised so much in the last 20 years that you can't expect to design a giant maze in a map and for most people to consider that good, and not lazy, map design. Anybody can make a featureless maze, Hell even I did. Matter of fact this might be helpful to you, though linking it will make me cringe:

 

 

This is the thread I made for a short series of maps when I first became active on DW. As you look at this, keep in mind that I had been mapping for over 5 years before posting this. These were not my first maps; in fact I had been mapping for a few years before starting these and worked on these another couple years. All that time and all I've to show for it is a powerful lesson that I was a caveman discovering fire while living in the modern world. So yes, I too was one of those people that thought stupid ideas like giant mazes were cool, and levels should have continuous end->start transitions, and weapons should be given slowly over time, and blah blah what is gameplay or good level design; I'm just making a campaign I like. But oh, jokes on me because when I took the advice of playing lots of other maps, I slowly began to like my previous maps less and less. Nowadays, I can't really play them anymore; they just sux too bad, even though at the time a lot of thought and testing went into shaping their experience to be juuust how I wanted it to be, and at the time I thought they were a lot of fun and of good quality. But I just didn't know better then, same as you are now. My most sincere advice to you is to play lots and lots of maps from other people. Find authors you like and study their works, really spend time figuring out what makes them work so well, how they did stuff, and how this all affects the larger picture, then find out what authors they like and study their works in the same fashion. Same as you do in music, right? Study your favorite artists' works as well as their inspirations' works.

 

Above all else though take criticism with open arms rather than feeling like your being slighted; it really just makes you look like an uneducated fool that thinks his stuff is the best when in fact it is fairly objectively terrible. Remember that those people could have done literally anything else with their time than reply to you, and be thankful for the attention you do get. I remember being a bit let down that nobody seemed to even see the cool forest I made for map04 in that wad, but in reality I should have been happy they even took the time to play and give feedback on the terrible berserk-maze map01 was, or the stupid pistol map02, complete with... you guessed it, a (small) crate maze. Even at 5+ years into mapping, I didn't know shit 'til I fully joined the community as a player as well as a mapper. Granted, I still don't know shit, but at least it amounts to a more measurable and more socially-approachable amount than I knew back then. 

[spd7693]

Let me weed out some things that have caused a misunderstanding - well obviously. I don't wanna start a fight. Just explain myself. 

 

57 minutes ago, Arctangent said:

Yes, I'm sure you're being so respectful in the first place by pissing all over others' hobbies and interests and treating people as if they're some rare breed of horse.

 

Whose hobbies and interests have I p***ed on? I have explained that I actually admire the fact @Nine Inch Heels is at this high level. Maybe I have taken her way of criticizing over me way too personally as she explained. If I have hurt somebody then I've felt hurt by the same person. The explanation is my problems. And the fact I think she's a rare breed of horse, I would like to praise her for being one. Maybe I should have told earlier that I enjoy talking to such people in general. Because I don't see them every day. I have felt treated badly first, that's why I didn't go off nice first. But it doesn't mean I p*** on her hobbies and interests. I point pout how their reaction to me looks in my eyes. 

 

50 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

It turns out that a lot of people enjoy beating a difficult map much more than beating a map that doesn't even put up a fight.

 

OK, but maps mustn't be meant to test your skill. By unnecessarily difficult I mean exactly those - maps that are meant to test someone's skill. I'll give a full list of flaws in for instance Plutonia's map 13. Four arch-viles in the map, especially one in a place where a revenant would work nicer. The other three may attack the player just together. As well as four mancubi in a small cramped space. Monsters that always spawn behind you - that'c cool. But two pain elementals in the exit. The map itself feels like it's meant to be difficult. Maybe the time it comes adds up too - after all Hunted and Speed are very tedious maps, so maybe someone would need a breather. But no. Same as 10 - after 8 and 9, which are amongst some of the most difficult maps in Plutonia. And slaughter maps especially - one cyberdemon is enough of difficulty. But nine over the same place... 

 

58 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

Just because I disagree with your opnions, your design choices, the way you perceive the quality of your maps it doesn't mean I am an unkind nasty bitch looking to insult you at all times. Perhaps it's time you grew up already.

 

This is a sort of advice I surely will follow. I have bipolar disorder, I confess it. This is one of the reasons I take criticizing as personal attack a lot of times. I'm trying to improve on it and need lots of help it seems. I'm not begging for anything, just explaining myself. And I don't mean playing nice. Don't mean playing either. But who's there to believe me anyways???

[Tristan]

Spoiler

I would just like to say I tend to disagree with the slaughter enthusiasts when this topic comes up but this time I can't. I don't know if the anti-slaughter arguments are actually getting worse (not that I was ever actually anti-slaughter but yeah) or I'm starting to see things more rationally but wow @ this thread.

 

[Arctangent]

1 minute ago, spd7693 said:

Whose hobbies and interests have I p***ed on?

Everyone who enjoys a good slaughtermap, which includes quite a few people on Doomworld.

 

1 minute ago, spd7693 said:

OK, but maps mustn't be meant to test your skill.

Okay, but why though?

 

1 minute ago, spd7693 said:

And the fact I think she's a rare breed of horse, I would like to praise her for being one. Maybe I should have told earlier that I enjoy talking to such people in general. Because I don't see them every day.

y e e e e s h

[[McD] James]

3 minutes ago, spd7693 said:

OK, but maps mustn't be meant to test your skill.

 

 

What the heck?

[baja blast rd.]

9 minutes ago, Eris Falling said:

  Reveal hidden contents

I would just like to say I tend to disagree with the slaughter enthusiasts when this topic comes up but this time I can't. I don't know if the anti-slaughter arguments are actually getting worse (not that I was ever actually anti-slaughter but yeah) or I'm starting to see things more rationally but wow @ this thread.

 

 

Threads like these have never been anti-slaughter vs. pro-slaughter, imo.

The heated arguments were always along the lines of anti-slaughter vs. pro-[people doing the 'niche' things they like without being made to feel like outcasts for it].
 

 

Edited May 11, 2018 by rdwpa

[Not Jabba]

5 minutes ago, Eris Falling said:

  Hide contents

I would just like to say I tend to disagree with the slaughter enthusiasts when this topic comes up but this time I can't. I don't know if the anti-slaughter arguments are actually getting worse (not that I was ever actually anti-slaughter but yeah) or I'm starting to see things more rationally but wow @ this thread.

 

 

I hear you. In all fairness to the slaughter haters, I also get tired of how often I hear skilled players piss on stuff for being easy. But they tend not to do it in random self-entitled forum rants, and for all that they may lack some perspective, their opinions are at least informed by years of experience.

[Tristan]

12 minutes ago, spd7693 said:

OK, but maps mustn't be meant to test your skill.

 

nah, I too have a preference for not having my skills (or lack of, rather) pushed, but that's why I play on HNTR. If people want to test themselves, they have UV for that.

Edited May 11, 2018 by Eris Falling

[Grain of Salt]

wtf is going on with the horse thing

[spd7693]

9 minutes ago, Fonze said:

This isn't the 90s anymore

 

Everything new is well forgotten old for its goods. Don't forget that. Maybe people need to make a step back to move forward. And this adds up to another opinion of mine - I just look at the world outside. Pretty much it's 1999. Same bills, same prices, same fights, same travelling, same BullS***Garia country politics, same games, same topics, same cars, same same, same... all the same. Only phones that had wires and wheel now are replaced by such that have a touchscreen and you can communicate with the whole world easier and pop music is more s*** electronic. But humankind could do all the same things in 1999. Nothing has changed this significantly so that the 90s could be forgotten. So, having caveman views sometimes is a good thing. Modern stuff isn't for me. Simply isn't. Despite studying computer science, even there I see nothing changed. All is rough smooshing of your keyboard while writing raw C code. Like in 1969 when Unix was invented. 

[Arctangent]

2 minutes ago, spd7693 said:

 

have you like

 

not actually interacted with anything new since 1999

 

like I'm not even sure if you've bought food since 1999 since that would entail you realizing that prices have risen due to inflation, much less the prices of many other things rising and falling due to politics and technological advancement

 

also til that dota had codified and popularized the moba genre 5 years before it was even created, now that's impressive