[GEC] Master Edition PSX Doom for the PlayStation. Beta 4 Released [11/16/2022]

[NightFright]

Now if only there was a way to merge the Master Edition with the regular Doom/Final Doom ISOs. But let's not get ahead of ourselves.

[Dexiaz]

3 hours ago, NightFright said:

Now if only there was a way to merge the Master Edition with the regular Doom/Final Doom ISOs. But let's not get ahead of ourselves.

 

I don't think it's impossible.

[Gerardo194]

5 hours ago, Nikoka said:

 

couldn't you also include a section containing maps from classic mods/TCs (ChexQuest, Batman, Aliens, Hacx, Freedoom, Harmony etc); the older, simpler ones shouldn't give problems on the psx, or maybe I'm wrong? Doesn't that sound like a good idea? 😉

Simpler maps will not give problems for the psx; if there are many sectors the player can see at once, the fps might go down to 8 or 7 fps. 

Quote

Now if only there was a way to merge the Master Edition with the regular Doom/Final Doom ISOs. But let's not get ahead of ourselves.

 

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I don't think it's impossible.

We can do some black magic that can merge Master Edition and the regular Doom/Final Doom ISOs in one pack. You will just need the game ISOs/CDs and the program we will have to make for that purpose. DZDoom was meant to run PSXDoom/Final Doom from the CDs, we managed to do that but we thought not all people have access to those so we left it as just a PK3.

Edited October 5, 2022 by Gerardo194

[NightFright]

If such an edition could even bring all the maps and episode into correct order, without losing any of the original audio tracks, it might be a collection that would truly live up to the "Master" title.

[Dark Pulse]

21 hours ago, Nikoka said:

If there's still space available, couldn't you also include a section containing maps from classic mods/TCs (ChexQuest, Batman, Aliens, Hacx, Freedoom, Harmony etc); the older, simpler ones shouldn't give problems on the psx, or maybe I'm wrong? Doesn't that sound like a good idea? 

I don't speak for GEC, so I don't know their plans for sure, but I can say that would be technically challenging for a few reasons.

 

Basically, not only the textures, but the sprites would have to be added to make a lot of those mods work. Textures are fairly simple (albeit limited, unless Erick got rid of the limitation that they must be 8, 16, 64, or 256 wide), but sprites are a whole other beast - being able to coexist with the original sprites would be very difficult, if not impossible. Essentially the engine would have to be reworked to be able to load multiple sets of sprite data depending on the map set that's been picked.

 

Stuff like HacX would be even harder, as that actually modifies the game code from Doom in certain ways. There's no mechanism for a DeHackEd-like system that would modify the values from the original. They would presumably have to code in some way to modify that.

 

So in short, the most likely stuff to be convertible would be stuff that adds new textures, but no new sprites, and nothing that modifies game code. Of course, if GEC works around these limitations, the only ones becomes stuff like the texture limits, and more practically, the PS1 limits.

Edited October 6, 2022 by Dark Pulse

[Gerardo194]

Dark Pulse has pointed out good reasons about those games. And, I forgot to say that I have neither seen nor played any of them yet; the only one I have watched is Batman Doom via YouTube. 

If that consisted only playing maps from those games in PSXDoom, that would be possible but as Dark Pulse mentioned, the whole engine would have to be reworked to be able to play those on PSX with textures, gfx and sprites.

[Impboy4]

On 10/5/2022 at 9:00 AM, Nikoka said:

couldn't you also include a section containing maps from classic mods/TCs (ChexQuest, Batman, Aliens, Hacx, Freedoom, Harmony etc); the older, simpler ones shouldn't give problems on the psx, or maybe I'm wrong? Doesn't that sound like a good idea?

You're asking too much for a project that has enough stuff in it as is.  While it would be neat, this isn't what the project leaders had in mind.

[Gerardo194]

I doubt GEC is gonna work on those for the PSX, (unless Erick says otherwise) new leaders would be needed to bring those titles to the PSX, leaders with knowledge about those games including Perdition's Gate and Hell to Pay, because we haven't played those yet as well. 0% knowledge from my end.

[NightFright]

Those are not addons, but Total Conversions. Naturally, they don't belong here due to their style and design. If you start going down this road, people will scream for converting more and more user-made pwads and there wouldn't be any stopping.

 

And I believe there's more than enough maps already. No need to PSX-ify everything just because it exists.

Edited October 6, 2022 by NightFright

[riderr3]

On 10/5/2022 at 4:00 PM, Nikoka said:

If there's still space available, couldn't you also include a section containing maps from classic mods/TCs (ChexQuest, Batman, Aliens, Hacx, Freedoom, Harmony etc); the older, simpler ones shouldn't give problems on the psx, or maybe I'm wrong?

 

I don't think this is a rational decision for current project. I hope everyone remembers that some time after the release of Master Edition will be update to tools where  will be possible to create your own addons/projects to everyone. Including, let's say “Definitive Edition”, compilation of standard PSX Doom/Final Levels and Master Edition levels. Remember also GEC has other projects and we will not slow them down, and so 3 years have passed since the last update.

[Nikoka]

In the fervent wait for the release of the much acclaimed new version of M.E. PSX Doom, I would like to ask a few questions, to anyone who is kind enough to answer me.
I would be curious to know what is the maximum allowable size of a psx iso for it to be played burned on a modded psx or otherwise converted to PSP. I ask because I would like to know what is the maximum number of Doom maps that could fit in one iso. It would be great if it could hold 100 maps or many more: it would truly result in a world guinness megawad the likes of which have never been seen in living memory.😂

I might even dust off my PSX to play it (although CD-Rs are no longer for sale in my surroundings, and the psx laser drive lately could barely read only the original discs).

Thank you for the attention given to these ramblings of mine: forgive me, the grueling wait is making me lose my mind. 😋

[Dark Pulse]

2 hours ago, Nikoka said:

In the fervent wait for the release of the much acclaimed new version of M.E. PSX Doom, I would like to ask a few questions, to anyone who is kind enough to answer me.
I would be curious to know what is the maximum allowable size of a psx iso for it to be played burned on a modded psx or otherwise converted to PSP. I ask because I would like to know what is the maximum number of Doom maps that could fit in one iso. It would be great if it could hold 100 maps or many more: it would truly result in a world guinness megawad the likes of which have never been seen in living memory.😂

I might even dust off my PSX to play it (although CD-Rs are no longer for sale in my surroundings, and the psx laser drive lately could barely read only the original discs).

Thank you for the attention given to these ramblings of mine: forgive me, the grueling wait is making me lose my mind. 😋

Hundreds. The original game's data (minus the redbook CD audio) is only about 80 MB, so your standard 700 MB CD-ROM will definitely fit a ton of levels.

 

The GEC Master Edition is nearly, if not over, 100 when everything is factored in; Erick/Bodbdearg said that their changes to the password system can encode up to 256 levels, I think. (The original game's limit was 64.)

[Gerardo194]

Thanks for the awesome explanation @Dark PulseI don't know how I would have said that. And yes, 256 levels. 

[Herr Dethnout]

2 hours ago, Dark Pulse said:

Hundreds. The original game's data (minus the redbook CD audio) is only about 80 MB

Is more than Doom, Doom 2 and Final Doom combined O.o

[Dark Pulse]

15 hours ago, Herr Dethnout said:

Is more than Doom, Doom 2 and Final Doom combined O.o

Keep in mind that also does include some FMVs (Midway logo, etc.), there is technically a bit of duplication here and there, sound samples are generally higher quality, etc. Also some lesser-known stuff, like padding.

 

The size does make sense when you think about all the factors.

[Nikoka]

On 10/9/2022 at 5:59 PM, Dark Pulse said:

Keep in mind that also does include some FMVs (Midway logo, etc.), there is technically a bit of duplication here and there, sound samples are generally higher quality, etc. Also some lesser-known stuff, like padding

Sorry to butt in, but let me say that FMVs can easily be replaced with much shorter (compatible) .str movies, dummy files and .XA bgms replaced with homonymous 1-bite files without any problems: a procedure that old psx connoisseurs and creators of custom multi-ripped-games isos know well (infamous 3-in-1 or 10-in-1 collections 😉).
Sometimes some games work by simply deleting .xa and .str files without replacing them.

[Kroc]

In all this talk I've honestly forgotten what the goals for PSX DOOM M.E. even are; I assume the combination of Doom I, II & Final Doom, but I'm not sure to what extent "missing" maps are expected to be a part of the final product, especially those outside of the games directly mentioned (i.e. Master Levels)

[Gerardo194]

The goal is bringing back the scrapped levels into the PSXDoom engine, hence the creation of the Master Edition. The combination of PSXDoom, Final Doom and Master Edition is optional.

Users can play the Master Edition we all know, or combine the games in one if they want.

Edited October 10, 2022 by Gerardo194

[Kroc]

I _think_ the new engine supports weapon resets, so it certainly would be convenient to have all three games on one disc, particularly for the PSP, where I would prefer to play all maps in one continuous chain (like the GZDoom version)

[Gerardo194]

Yeah... that's why we'll create the tools for that purpose! Because we know people only want to play the cut maps and others want them in a full pack

[Dark Pulse]

3 hours ago, Nikoka said:

Sorry to butt in, but let me say that FMVs can easily be replaced with much shorter (compatible) .str movies, dummy files and .XA bgms replaced with homonymous 1-bite files without any problems: a procedure that old psx connoisseurs and creators of custom multi-ripped-games isos know well (infamous 3-in-1 or 10-in-1 collections 😉).
Sometimes some games work by simply deleting .xa and .str files without replacing them.

Well aware of that. Obviously the original game did not do that, hence the 80 MB data track.

[jalvani]

@Erick194 Would you consider adding Ultra Violence Plus to the GEC Master Edition? It is available in the official Bethesda source port and all other major source ports. it would add a lot of extra multiplayer enemies not found in the other difficulties. Master Edition probably has even more multiplayer monsters available to fight against that most people won't experience due to no link setup. I think this would provide a cool new way to experience the maps.

 

Below is a list of the extra monsters you would get to fight.

 

Ultra Violence+

 

https://forum.zdoom.org/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=70529

 

[Final Doom]

 

MAP10: Paradox

• 6x Revenant

MAP14: System Control

• 1x Cyberdemon

MAP15: Human Barbeque

• 1x Former Human

MAP20: Processing Area

• 7x Revenant

MAP21: Lunar Mining Project

• 6x Chaingunner
• 5x Revenant
• 5x Imp
• 8x Former Sergeant

MAP22: Quarry

• 3x Chaingunner
• 9x Imp
• 1x Revenant

MAP24: Heck

• 15x Revenant
• 8x Pain Elemental

MAP25: Congo

• 14x Revenant

MAP26: Aztec

• 4x Pain Elemental
• 6x Chaingunner
• 4x Arachnotron

MAP27: Ghost Town

• 7x Hell Knight
• 3x Cacodemon

MAP28: Baron's Lair

• 7x Revenant
• 6x Imp

MAP29: The Death Domain

• 3x Arachnotron
• 5x Hell Knight

MAP30: Onslaught

• 15x Chaingunner
• 2x Imp
• 1x Cacodemon

[Ultimate Doom/Doom II]

 

MAP27: Unruly Evil

• 2x Baron of Hell

MAP41: O of Destruction

• 5x Arachnotron
• 2x Cacodemon

MAP42: The Factory

• 3x Arachnotron

MAP45: Tenements

• 8x Cacodemon
• 5x Chaingunner

MAP51: Bloodfalls

• 3x Arachnotron

MAP58: The Mansion

• 1x Demon
• 2x Imp
• 2x Pain Elemental
• 2x Hell Knight

 

Edited October 12, 2022 by jalvani

[NightFright]

That particular feature request had already been declined on Github.

[jalvani]

1 minute ago, NightFright said:

That particular feature request had already been declined on Github.

 

I'm not asking about PsyDoom though, I'm asking about the GEC Master Edition for PS1 which is a different project.

[NightFright]

How exactly do you want to play it if the port (or native console release) won't support it? It doesn't help if the maps use features that the target platform won't understand.

 

I guess for GZDoom it would be possible due to its versatile modding capabilities, but otherwise...

Edited October 12, 2022 by NightFright

[jalvani]

1 minute ago, NightFright said:

How exactly do you want to play it if the port or console won't support it? It doesn't help if the maps use features that the port or console won't understand.

 

I understand that the GEC Master Edition project is aimed for the PS1 and not created for PsyDoom. So the projects are are entitled to do their own thing or diverge or add and change features. Maybe it would be better to wait for GEC's thoughts.

[Dimon12321]

Doesn't Nightmare add enough hardcore to the gameplay?
I don't know how PSX will handle more monsters, but even if it resolves "TEXTURE CACHE OVERFLOW" limit, you won't actually enjoy playing the game at a low framerate.

Edited October 12, 2022 by Dimon12321

[Dark Pulse]

25 minutes ago, Dimon12321 said:

Doesn't Nightmare add enough hardcore to the gameplay?
I don't know how PSX will handle more monsters, but even if it resolves "TEXTURE CACHE OVERFLOW" limit, you won't actually enjoy playing the game at a low framerate.

Texture cache overflow probably won't matter as much as level allocation will. It loads everything, even if the monster isn't used on that difficulty setting, into RAM, so it will bomb even in non co-op if some co-op only monster pushed it over the limit. Assuming that succeeded, it usually loads the first two frames of the monster into VRAM, and then the rest as necessary (as in, player shows up and it starts animating.)

 

I was trying to keep the Cacos in my conversion of Dis while adding the Doom II stuff to it, and I overflowed on the alloc, even though they were only in difficulties 1-3.

 

Texture cache overflow from sprites can really only be resolved by not having too many different monster types in view at once.

Edited October 12, 2022 by Dark Pulse

[NightFright]

3 hours ago, jalvani said:

 

I understand that the GEC Master Edition project is aimed for the PS1 and not created for PsyDoom. So the projects are are entitled to do their own thing or diverge or add and change features. Maybe it would be better to wait for GEC's thoughts.

 

You are talking about a game modification. This however is a map project. Not the same thing. You have a wrong understanding of what this project is meant to provide.

 

Anyway, if the GEC team ever comes around to creating their own executables for this, then they can basically do whatever they want. Maybe at that point this could be considered. But then again, I cannot imagine that maps optimized for such a feature would still work with the PSX, so that's one important aspect to remember.

Edited October 12, 2022 by NightFright

[jalvani]

1 hour ago, NightFright said:

 

You are talking about a game modification. This however is a map project. Not the same thing. You have a wrong understanding of what this project is meant to provide.

 

Anyway, if the GEC team ever comes around to creating their own executables for this, then they can basically do whatever they want. Maybe at that point this could be considered. But then again, I cannot imagine that maps optimized for such a feature would still work with the PSX, so that's one important aspect to remember.

 

 

Based on previous the topic posts GEC already have the ability to build their own executable for Doom and have already made more ambitious changes to the game like adding missing monsters among many other things. Why would the retail maps require optimization for this feature? You effectively get the same monster count/thing layout playing coop via two playstations on the original game. If anything I'd suspect the memory requirement might be minimally less as you don't have to see the Doomguy sprite in single player like you do in coop.

 

But it seems like you know more about this than me or GEC, Anyway thanks for your time, I certainly didn't expect to be shot down by a firing squad over a harmless request.