Enemies you don't want to return

[Lila Feuer]

Cyber Mancubus, redundant.

[Immorpher]

I liked most of the enemies in Doom 2016, especially the spider mastermind. I think the look of the Cyberdemon has declined since Doom 64 (looks more unremarkable now due to the bulkier and muted color design). For the same reason the Hell Guards felt bland to me. I don't really like the summoner, so if that was gone I wouldn't mind that. And from the other games, since I didn't like the Summoner, I wouldn't care for an Archvile return. In general I have preferred when Doom has gone more sci-fi horror rather than fantasy horror.

[Immorpher]

Ooops double post!

Edited June 27, 2018 by Immorpher

[Koko Ricky]

I could do without the secret map SS soldiers. Nothing against Wolfenstein, but the nazi trope is way overdone and I think the newschool Wolf games provide enough of that kind of material. It's hard to think of how the SS guys would fit in the Doom universe other than making them demonic and decrepit, and featured as a secret.

Edited June 27, 2018 by GoatLord

[Inno]

Not from Doom 2016, but I really don't want to archvile back. Something that will probably become very apparent over time is that I hate the archvile very strongly. It's one of the most, if not *the* most annoying enemy in any game, at least to me. My way of playing Doom is very particular, but the archvile's flame attack always throws my playstyle out of the window, forcing me to hide behind cover again and again while he resurrects enemies I already killed. To quote the wonderful Ross Scott of Accursed Farms: "I like my enemies to STAY. DEAD."

 

The rest of them are fine, I suppose. Not huge on the pain elementals either, but provided their spawn rate is well-balanced, it's not much of a problem.

[Aquila Chrysaetos]

7 hours ago, Inno said:

My way of playing Doom is very particular, but the archvile's flame attack always throws my playstyle out of the window, forcing me to hide behind cover again and again while he resurrects enemies I already killed.

That's the point of the vile. He's there to put pressure on you in the fight, to force you on the defensive.

[Inno]

There's a difference between forcing you to play defensively, and *breaking the pace* to make you play defensively. The hitscanners do the former. The archvile does the latter. Even the revenant, in the right area, makes you play defensively in a very interesting way. But once you tell me, "Oh, nope, time to stand behind a wall or pillar for two or three seconds until his devastating flame attack animations end," then you've no longer created an interested dynamic to combat - you've stopped combat altogether. If he just resurrected the enemies, he'd be annoying enough, but would have an interesting and utterly unique place in the roster, and would, in fact, continue to promote the fantastic pace of combat Doom maintains as you scramble to kill the him before he causes you too many problems with your now-resurrected foes. But no, his attack demands you stop what you're doing to hide. Doomguy can stand out in the open, dodging the attacks of a cyberdemon, who is supposed to be a much bigger threat, but he has to hide when the demon healer comes into play. It's just super dumb, and makes him the singular instance of a flow-breaking enemy amongst the entire enemy lineup.

[Chezza]

Hmm I would like to keep all monsters in. It's how you use them that makes them interesting.

 

In regards to the Archvile, maybe instead of resurrecting he protects? Imagine him using a motion or chant on a monster and it becomes invulnerable until you hurt the Vile.

[Aquila Chrysaetos]

If the vile is actively stopping combat, then it's not being used properly. It's not there to break the pace, it's there to force you to move while other monsters press you, because if you don't then it hits you with a 90 damage strike. It has a niche as it is like anything else.

It's fine you don't want to see it return, but when used properly, it doesn't break the pace, because the player should attempt to kill it as quickly as possible, not only because of its healing, but because of that powerful attack, which actually does promote fast paced action. You don't have to drop everything and hide if it begins its attack, a full SSG shot has a solid chance of stopping it (about 78%), and four rockets will put him down.

Being forced to fight it with the single shotgun or chaingun is terrible, with the SSG, it's exciting because there's the risk, and the rocket launcher makes it possible to bring it down immediately. The playstyle changes on the available equipment because it's a unique enemy that fills a specific role.

The pain elemental also fills a specific role, though in Eternal, if the souls are the same as in 2016, it basically becomes a lower-tier flying cyberdemon.

 

That's what I think of the vile, though. Make of it what you will.

[Duke of Pathoris]

11 hours ago, Inno said:

Not from Doom 2016, but I really don't want to archvile back. Something that will probably become very apparent over time is that I hate the archvile very strongly. It's one of the most, if not *the* most annoying enemy in any game, at least to me. My way of playing Doom is very particular, but the archvile's flame attack always throws my playstyle out of the window, forcing me to hide behind cover again and again while he resurrects enemies I already killed. To quote the wonderful Ross Scott of Accursed Farms: "I like my enemies to STAY. DEAD."

 

The rest of them are fine, I suppose. Not huge on the pain elementals either, but provided their spawn rate is well-balanced, it's not much of a problem.

I can agree with that. I really don't want the archie back.

[dsm]

On 6/27/2018 at 9:59 AM, Lila Feuer said:

Cyber Mancubus, redundant.

Not slamming your opinion, and not really disagreeing either, but I think it's worth noting that the Cyber Mancubus serves as a functional callback to the classic Baron of Hell in that it's a big, slow-moving, tough tank that fires fast, high-damage projectiles. It being in the form of a Mancubus is just the in-universe explanation for why it's so slow when the new Baron moves so fast and with such agility.

Still, my feelings on it is akin to my feelings on the classic Doom 2 Hell Knight: It's kinda boring that it's essentially a reskin of an existing enemy with different hitpoints, so I probably wouldn't miss it if it was taken out of Doom Eternal.

Quote

 

Not from Doom 2016, but I really don't want to archvile back. Something that will probably become very apparent over time is that I hate the archvile very strongly. It's one of the most, if not *the* most annoying enemy in any game, at least to me. My way of playing Doom is very particular, but the archvile's flame attack always throws my playstyle out of the window, forcing me to hide behind cover again and again while he resurrects enemies I already killed. To quote the wonderful Ross Scott of Accursed Farms: "I like my enemies to STAY. DEAD."

 

The rest of them are fine, I suppose. Not huge on the pain elementals either, but provided their spawn rate is well-balanced, it's not much of a problem.

 

While I don't mind that the Archvile is making a return, I can certainly see where you're coming from. I have many memories of Archvile encounters that felt more detracting from the fun than it should and probably for the reasons you've mentioned, but I also have a lot of good memories where an Archvile encounter felt great to overcome and was fun while it lasted.

And generally, I think the Archvile makes for a really cool and unique enemy on paper with lots of potential that would be a shame to waste. I guess that what I'm saying is that I hope the devs have come up with a really cool gameplay design for it that makes it feel like an Archvile should (scary and challenging while feeling familiar), while cutting down on the more bullshitty aspects of the classic one.

Edited June 28, 2018 by dsm

[Inno]

5 minutes ago, dsm said:

While I don't mind that the Archvile is making a return, I can certainly see where you're coming from. I have many memories of Archvile encounters that felt more detracting from the fun than it should and probably for the reasons you've mentioned, but I also have a lot of good memories where an Archvile encounter felt great to overcome and was fun while it lasted.

And generally, I think the Archvile makes for a really cool and unique enemy on paper with lots of potential that would be a shame to waste. I guess that what I'm saying is that I hope the devs have come up with a really cool gameplay design for it that makes it feel like an Archvile should (scary and challenging while feeling familiar), while cutting down on the more bullshitty aspects of the classic one.

Now, don't get me wrong. I understand what the archvile does when *properly* used, but... it rarely feels used in the right way to me. Almost every single encounter with an archvile is unremarkable or flat-out annoying and unfair. Sure, there's times when it IS used well, but those moments are so rare that it's not even worth the effort to me.

 

I think the archvile's design itself is the problem. It should have NO attack, instead only somewhat quickly resurrecting some foes. I was just playing a map a few minutes ago, and the archvile came out alongside some hell knights and a couple shotgunners. After killing the shotgunners, running around, and accidentally killing the hell knight (I was trying to get rid of the archvile), I expected the archvile to resurrect the hell knight right in front of him. Instead, he starts his flame attack again. I dodge it and think, "Alright, now he's going to resurrect the hell knight," but, again, he doesn't, he just walks away from the corpse and tries his flame attack again. I hate this.

 

In my opinion, he should be PURELY a resurrecting foe, balanced not even with a lower health pool (though I think his visual design doesn't suit how much damage he takes), but instead by bigger enemies taking longer to resurrect than the weaker ones. So if you don't clear a path through a cleverly-placed pack of enemies, he's going to make your life hell. This, in conjunction with smart level design, would make for some engaging and memorable encounters.

 

If he *did* have to have an attack, I'd be fine with the flame attack used by the Mother Demon (or "shrimp demon" as Cage calls it) from D64, which, again, with smart map design, could force you in areas that you don't want to be, further stacking the odds against you. But as for now, I think the archvile's design simply *isn't good*. It doesn't need to stop being an enemy with a clever and important niche, but it could also be a lot less obnoxious, too.

[Man of Doom]

52 minutes ago, dsm said:

Not slamming your opinion, and not really disagreeing either, but I think it's worth noting that the Cyber Mancubus serves as a functional callback to the classic Baron of Hell in that it's a big, slow-moving, tough tank that fires fast, high-damage projectiles. It being in the form of a Mancubus is just the in-universe explanation for why it's so slow when the new Baron moves so fast and with such agility.

Still, my feelings on it is akin to my feelings on the classic Doom 2 Hell Knight: It's kinda boring that it's essentially a reskin of an existing enemy with different hitpoints, so I probably wouldn't miss it if it was taken out of Doom Eternal.

 

Building upon what you said, I feel like the Cyber-Mancubus should simply become the Mancubus, as the vanilla Mancubus in Doom 2016 not only becomes redundant and less of a threat (it's basically closer to the Doom 2 Hell Knight in terms of behavior while the Cyber-Mancubus is closer to the classic Baron), the Cyber-Mancubus is also closer in appearance to its classic counterpart (cybernetic enhancements, green glowing eyes).

 

However, I feel that the Doom 2016 Mancubus should be the one that should be removed, not the Cyber-Mancubus.

Edited June 28, 2018 by Man of Doom

[Claptrapino]

A fucking piece of shit called Archvile.

[Aquila Chrysaetos]

1 hour ago, Inno said:

I think the archvile's design itself is the problem. It should have NO attack, instead only somewhat quickly resurrecting some foes. I was just playing a map a few minutes ago, and the archvile came out alongside some hell knights and a couple shotgunners. After killing the shotgunners, running around, and accidentally killing the hell knight (I was trying to get rid of the archvile), I expected the archvile to resurrect the hell knight right in front of him. Instead, he starts his flame attack again. I dodge it and think, "Alright, now he's going to resurrect the hell knight," but, again, he doesn't, he just walks away from the corpse and tries his flame attack again. I hate this.

That was bad luck (or possibly good luck). The vile calls A_VileChase in its see state, which means that if it comes into contact with a corpse, it will revive it if it can. This situation can happen to any monster that calls A_VileChase and has a heal state.

 

1 hour ago, Inno said:

it rarely feels used in the right way to me.

I can understand this. The vile is difficult to use in a way that doesn't make it irritating to deal with.

The Mastermind suffers a similar issue because of its size.

 

1 hour ago, Inno said:

it could also be a lot less obnoxious

So could the revenant, chaingunner, shotgunner, and pain elemental.

 

I seem to remember the Doom 3 vile had a flame wall attack. I expect they'd use something similar like that in Eternal, though the Summoner basically already does the same thing.

Edited June 28, 2018 by Aquila Chrysaetos

[soloriff]

Summoner (they were just an arch-vile ripoff lol), Maggot, Cherub, and both the Ticks and Trites (oh god those things scared the hell outta me), and the Hell Razer.

[Inno]

3 hours ago, Aquila Chrysaetos said:

So could the revenant, chaingunner, shotgunner, and pain elemental.

 

I seem to remember the Doom 3 vile had a flame wall attack.

I don't find the listed enemies to be nearly as annoying. It's a lot harder to fuck up their usage (though it's still not uncommon to see them used improperly by people who aren't very good at enemy placement) than with the archvile. I'll put it this way: Doom and Doom 2 used all of their enemy types pretty well. The archvile, even in the hands of id, still annoys me, however. I think, had Doom 2 had more time in development, the archvile would've been tweaked a bit more. I'm fine with the archvile's concept, I just think the execution needed some reworking. But hey, if even the archvile can't stop me from adoring the gameplay, then Doom is doing a lot of other things very right.

 

You're right about the Doom 3 archvile. It blissfully wasn't so bad. I would hope they would go closer to that direction.

Edited June 28, 2018 by Inno
Fixed an incorrect word

[ModdedT]

The shield guys, no matter how much you run around them you can never hit them.

[Chezza]

2 hours ago, ModdedT said:

The shield guys, no matter how much you run around them you can never hit them.

Grenade / Launcher behind them, Plasma Stun, Double Jump above and quickly shoot behind them are ways to quickly end them. If in a poor position to do so it's easy to outrun them.

 

I find once you know how to deal with them there is nothing to them. Ideally you use effective weapon swaps.

[Aquila Chrysaetos]

I just defaulted to the gauss cannon when I got it. Worked fine on Nightmare.

But I'd rather not see them return.

Edited June 28, 2018 by Aquila Chrysaetos

[Duke of Pathoris]

10 hours ago, Inno said:

In my opinion, he should be PURELY a resurrecting foe, balanced not even with a lower health pool (though I think his visual design doesn't suit how much damage he takes), but instead by bigger enemies taking longer to resurrect than the weaker ones. So if you don't clear a path through a cleverly-placed pack of enemies, he's going to make your life hell. This, in conjunction with smart level design, would make for some engaging and memorable encounters.

Agreed. Its attack was both hitscan and tracking. The two worst things. This could be forgiven if it weren't a near insta-kill, I suppose.

[Inno]

Just now, Duke of Pathoris said:

Agreed. Its attack was both hitscan and tracking. The two worst things. This could be forgiven if it weren't a near insta-kill, I suppose.

Yes! Now that I think about it, it probably wouldn't even be so much of a pain if it were a homing attack that you had to make sure to keep outrunning until the animations stopped, but that hitscan implementation of it is what makes the attack so ridiculous, alongside, as you mean, it being near insta-kill. Aquila correctly pointed out that, statistically-speaking, you have a fair chance of a SSG blast cancelling the archvile's attack animations, and that would be enough for me, except for the fact that the remaining 22% chance of it NOT cancelling the attack has bit me in the ass far too many times, and the damage is so great that it isn't worth just tanking the damage.

[Duke of Pathoris]

1 minute ago, Inno said:

Yes! Now that I think about it, it probably wouldn't even be so much of a pain if it were a homing attack that you had to make sure to keep outrunning until the animations stopped, but that hitscan implementation of it is what makes the attack so ridiculous, alongside, as you mean, it being near insta-kill. Aquila correctly pointed out that, statistically-speaking, you have a fair chance of a SSG blast cancelling the archvile's attack animations, and that would be enough for me, except for the fact that the remaining 22% chance of it NOT cancelling the attack has bit me in the ass far too many times, and the damage is so great that it isn't worth just tanking the damage.

I sometimes think it would have made for a good boss. You walk into a room full of demons, kill them all. Then this bastard comes and resurrects them and the arena is full of pillars to hide behind when you need to.

[Inno]

Just now, Duke of Pathoris said:

I sometimes think it would have made for a good boss.

It's interesting you say that, because I was also thinking earlier that the archvile is an enemy so niche that it feels like the once-in-a-blue-moon sort of encounter that Doom had set up for the Cyberdemon and Spider Mastermind - or the Mother Demon in Doom 64. All it would need is an HP boost and BAM, instantly an interesting boss encounter, no change to the design needed. But instead, it is presented as part of the normal roster instead of as a boss monster. Ah well.

[Duke of Pathoris]

1 minute ago, Inno said:

It's interesting you say that, because I was also thinking earlier that the archvile is an enemy so niche that it feels like the once-in-a-blue-moon sort of encounter that Doom had set up for the Cyberdemon and Spider Mastermind - or the Mother Demon in Doom 64. All it would need is an HP boost and BAM, instantly an interesting boss encounter, no change to the design needed. But instead, it is presented as part of the normal roster instead of as a boss monster. Ah well.

Especially since it's more painful to fight than a cybie or spidie. And it certainly does dish out a lot more damage than it can take. I suppose they thought it would be a nice compromise but I absolutely hate it as a regular.

[Inno]

1 minute ago, Duke of Pathoris said:

Especially since it's more painful to fight than a cybie or spidie.

My dude, it makes me happy to find someone who feels every same thing about the archvile as I do. I would much prefer a mediocre fight against a cyberdemon or spider mastermind than even an above-average fight with an archvile.

[Duke of Pathoris]

On 6/28/2018 at 2:57 AM, GoatLord said:

I could do without the secret map SS soldiers. Nothing against Wolfenstein, but the nazi trope is way overdone and I think the newschool Wolf games provide enough of that kind of material. It's hard to think of how the SS guys would fit in the Doom universe other than making them demonic and decrepit, and featured as a secret.

I suspect they could easily do it as a secret level. Doom Slayer finds a portal, it takes him to a secret level that is set in 1960s Germany and he goes on a Nazi-killing rampage.

[Rifle Infantry]

1 hour ago, Duke of Pathoris said:

I suspect they could easily do it as a secret level. Doom Slayer finds a portal, it takes him to a secret level that is set in 1960s Germany and he goes on a Nazi-killing rampage.

I think it's unacceptable to not have them wear bright blue uniforms, tote MP40s, and loudly shout poorly pronounced German at the player while fighting in an angular room with massive portraits of Hitler and swastikas every four to five feet on the walls.

[Duke of Pathoris]

1 hour ago, Rifle Infantry said:

I think it's unacceptable to not have them wear bright blue uniforms, tote MP40s, and loudly shout poorly pronounced German at the player while fighting in an angular room with massive portraits of Hitler and swastikas every four to five feet on the walls.

We really have come a long way since then. But I think it would be a fitting tribute. Nazi supersoldiers in Doom Eternal.

[Koko Ricky]

Nazis have become such a tiresome cliche though. I can't think of a reason to bring them into Doom that isn't tied to nostalgia, which in and of itself is not the best justification.