Whats up with the Doom 64 engine?

[StevenC21]

I'm also planning on creating a map, assuming I can get my Win10 VM running.

[Dexiaz]

I want to create a map for this, but I don't have...the Inspiration. Anyway, still counting me "in".

 

BTW, don't forget to post here a link to your new thread, @StevenC21

[Nevander]

This is fun. I'm getting the hang of how colors end up looking. I am going for a spin on Staging Area but it's obviously different. So this implies I am making a MAP01 slot so I guess put me down for that one.

 

I was also thinking about secret exits and the like. Should we stick to MAP29-MAP32? I say we should so we can have the traditional 3 artifacts and make a new super hard MAP32 to unlock the Features menu.

 

Also I really suggest that anyone interested in doing maps download the tech bible PDF and keep the wiki bookmarked.

 

http://sourceforge.net/projects/doom64ex/files/docs/doom64_techbible.pdf/download

 

http://doom64ex.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/Main_Page

[StevenC21]

I don't think that we should do a full 32 map megawad right off the bat @Nevander.

 

If we try something like that we'll probably end up never finishing it.

 

I'm thinking 5 or 6 levels, not including secrets.

 

And we're totally making Go 64 it.

Edited October 3, 2018 by StevenC21

[Nevander]

1 hour ago, StevenC21 said:

I don't think that we should do a full 32 map megawad right off the bat @Nevander.

 

If we try something like that we'll probably end up never finishing it.

 

I'm thinking 5 or 6 levels, not including secrets.

Yea probably. Was getting carried away, it's exciting. Let's aim for 4 maps to start maybe? It's not very hard to reach. We will at least get 1 lol. Imagine how awkward it would be if mine is the only map. Speaking of, it's starting to turn into a weird hybrid of Staging Area and Hangar (e1m1).

 

And yes, we must make Go 64 It.

[kb1]

10 hours ago, Kore said:

 ¯\_(ツ)_/¯  Isn't it common sense? You are voting in something you aren't directly taking part in.

I just found the amount of "won't contribute" amusing.

Fair enough - that makes sense.

[Koko Ricky]

From what I can tell, Doom 64 uses macros for its scripting and interaction, and this can make something as simple as implementing a switch significantly different from typical Doom mapping. The macros are also, from what I've read, extremely limiting. Really, other than some really nice gradient lighting, I don't think you lose any functionality by doing everything in UDMF with the Retribution resource.

Edited October 3, 2018 by GoatLord

[StevenC21]

We're still going to try for Doom 64 EX.

[Kore]

And what do you gain by using UDMF aside from being able to use something you're more familiar with? Retribution is very well made and all but it doesn't look like it makes it any easier at all to recreate the lighting aesthetic.

 

I have 6 levels of varying levels of WIP for D64EX, and it seems like a waste to let them rot for eternity. If this becomes a thing count me in.

 

 

[hardcore_gamer]

20 minutes ago, Kore said:

Retribution is very well made and all but it doesn't look like it makes it any easier at all to recreate the lighting aesthetic.

 

Gzdoom with UDMF allows for Doom 64 style lightning effects. Granted it doesn't look exactly the same, but it's pretty similar.

 

Example of gzdoom wall UDMF wall lightning:

 

Edited October 3, 2018 by hardcore_gamer

[Kore]

To be fair, I don't keep up with GZDoom anymore. As far as I know, you can emulate the effect through glowing flats, and that's way more cumbersome to do and not as versatile compared to Doom64 lighting system. And it doesn't seem that has changed otherwise retribution would look different.

Edited October 3, 2018 by Kore

[Payload4367]

I recently beat Retribution and enjoyed it so much, I made three maps using its resources. I don't know if you can convert them for EX or whatever, but you're welcome to them. I only know UDMF and it was quite frustrating at times, learning it. Not sure if I have the patience to learn another editor at this time. Good luck on this project. I will be following.

Here's some screen shots. Some of the assets are still Doom2 in these pics. I wasn't sure how "D64" I was going to go with this.

Edited October 3, 2018 by Payload4367
screenshots

[Koko Ricky]

UDMF is peculiar because it looks better and worse than D64's lighting simultaneously. The former has limited but slick looking dynamic lights and the latter allows much more control over coloring sectors, as you can add color just to the surface without affecting the lighting.

 

I'm not opposed to using DB64 or GZDB64 were I to map for this project, but there's a serious lack of tutorials. In contrast you can find YT tuts on just about anything UDMF related. So it really comes down to how accessible assistance is.

Edited October 3, 2018 by GoatLord

[StevenC21]

Perhaps we could make our own tutorials as we go?

 

I think that, provided everyone uses it, a Discord (or at least IRC) server would be a good thing.

[StevenC21]

Good news! I just confirmed that, in case we have any Linux users who want to help (including myself) that SLADE3 does in fact have the ability to map for Doom 64 EX!

[Kore]

Maybe that's just me but I don't think you need tutorials. You've got the wiki (there are even some tutorials there) and the original mapset as reference. All you need is a little bit of creativity.

[StevenC21]

I agree to an extent, but some people don't learn well without a tutorial, especially when its a whole new way of doing things which may not immediately make sense.

[Koko Ricky]

I'm definitely one of those people that needs their hand held. Tutorial videos are really useful for my learning style. I'm not too hip on the macros because I find that script writing is something I do not fundamentally understand, as I find that using language to direct actions in a game is way too abstract for me. I think that's the one thing that's making me reluctant about using EX.

[Kore]

The scripting system is very simple, and you don't even need to use it. It's just convenient if you want a single linedef to do multiple stuff.

[Koko Ricky]

I recall reading about people having trouble implementing simple things like switches because the method is slightly different on D64's engine. Honestly I think that's what scared me and it (whether it's accurate to say or not) painted the engine as being difficult to mod. I sometimes still get confused when doing vanilla tricks, so I was worried about my capacity to understand D64's idiosyncracies. 

 

Oh, and @hardcore_gamer, while it is true that the lighting system is similar but different, UDMF has a major drawback which is that if you color a sector, it will also color its surrounding walls, preventing you from completely controlling how much of the light a wall receives. So you could color the sector yellow, but then it would cancel out the wall fade because the entire wall would be yellow. You could add a fade over it, but it won't look right at all.

Edited October 3, 2018 by GoatLord

[hardcore_gamer]

1 hour ago, GoatLord said:

I recall reading about people having trouble implementing simple things like switches because the method is slightly different on D64's engine. Honestly I think that's what scared me and it (whether it's accurate to say or not) painted the engine as being difficult to mod. I sometimes still get confused when doing vanilla tricks, so I was worried about my capacity to understand D64's idiosyncracies. 

 

Oh, and @hardcore_gamer, while it is true that the lighting system is similar but different, UDMF has a major drawback which is that if you color a sector, it will also color its surrounding walls, preventing you from completely controlling how much of the light a wall receives. So you could color the sector yellow, but then it would cancel out the wall fade because the entire wall would be yellow. You could add a fade over it, but it won't look right at all.

 

I dunno, I just did a test where the sector color was yellow and the wall color/glow was red, and it looked all right. Why would you even want to have different colors for the walls and floor/ceiling both at the same time anyway? I can think of very few situations where this would actually be useful.

[Koko Ricky]

Could you post a screenshot? Maybe I'm unaware of UDMF's capabilities in regards to lighting. 

 

Also, you may have misinterpreted what I said. Let me rephrase. In the screen you posted, the walls were glowing yellow from the bottom up. If I wanted the floor to also be yellow, the walls (as is my understanding) would turn a uniform yellow, canceling out the glow. 

[genericpainelemental]

Im working on a custom map for retribution that has a friendly marine and uses things like nightmare imps and see through windows.

[Kore]

Quote

Why would you even want to have different colors for the walls and floor/ceiling both at the same time anyway? I can think of very few situations where this would actually be useful.

Contrast, which is even more important for doom64 since the textures tend to share the same values/colors. You'll usually see the bottom color of the wall being slightly darker than the floor itself. Also you can simulate different materials through the lighting.
 

13 minutes ago, genericpainelemental said:

Im working on a custom map for retribution that has a friendly marine and uses things like nightmare imps and see through windows. 

Not the thread for it.

 

4 hours ago, Payload4367 said:

I don't know if you can convert them for EX or whatever

I don't remember very well but I think I did it once using some copy paste tricks.

 

I think it'd be better if the community project discussion moved to another thread.

Edited October 3, 2018 by Kore

[genericpainelemental]

Whoops sorry I'll try to make sure i don't do that ever again.

[Gez]

4 hours ago, Kore said:

To be fair, I don't keep up with GZDoom anymore. As far as I know, you can emulate the effect through glowing flats, and that's way more cumbersome to do and not as versatile compared to Doom64 lighting system.

GZDoom now has the full-fledged Doom64-style colored lighting, in addition to glowing flats and the older style of colored lighting and colored fog.

 

Quote

And it doesn't seem that has changed otherwise retribution would look different.

You presume a lot. Retribution is a project that started before they were available, and the author didn't want to update all the maps already done and so preferred to keep using the same approximation for consistency. Using the new system was planned for the 2.0 update.

 

Note that my intervention isn't intended to take a side in the KEX vs. GZD debate. I'd be glad to see an actual Doom64 EX mod project, as there have been very few of them.

Edited October 3, 2018 by Gez

[StevenC21]

What I like about the KEX engine is that it has the features of GZDoom that I use most often, but without a lot of the bloat and general un-optimization that GZDoom has.

[Koko Ricky]

@Gez, is this something supported by GZDoom Builder? Whenever I mess with the colored lighting in UDMF I don't see the level of finesse offered by Doom 64.

Edited October 3, 2018 by GoatLord

[hardcore_gamer]

I know the poll already said most people want EX, but seeing as it appears most of the people at the time of voting were not actually aware that Gzdoom can do Doom 64 style lightning after all, do you think maybe people should vote again/reconsider? The lightning system was the single biggest benefit of Doom 64 so if that is in Gzdoom anyway that kind of defeats the point.

[snapshot]

Who's to say all the people voting are really willing to contribute anyway :P I'd take the results of that poll with a Grain of salt.

Edited October 3, 2018 by tempdecal.wad