The DWmegawad Club plays: Doom 404

[TheOrganGrinder]

MAP24: Sintax

 

So this one's pretty interesting, with its looping nature and a population that's heavy on the chaingunners and cacodemons; the latter are certainly large enough to soak up no shortage of stray bullets and turn their hateful attentions on the former, but their vertical movement presents a challenge in terms of manoeuvring to line up that friendly fire, which in turn compels creative and interesting use of the environment as well as resistance to that trained reflex to quickly pop chaingunners right now before they can shred your health.  I feel like there's something interesting in the provision of supplies in the loop too, a sense that the bigger boxes of ammo and medikits are consolidated toward the end of the loop as a way of constantly pulling the player forward into the jaws of new hazards.

[SiFi270]

+++ Monuments of Mars, Circle of Caina, and Forest Swords

[gaspe]

MAP24: The red theme was cute, red textures and there are many cacodemons and chaingunners. On pistol you have to do a more methodical play and have to use the chaingunners to help you. You can choose to go to the BK room at last but it's probably better to go there first so you can grab some more supplies. The big groups of cacodemons were somehow less effective in this map.

 

+++ Garrulismo, megawad from 2004, I never play it might be interesting.

[riderr3]

+++ MEMENTO MORI 2

[Hells Kitchen]

MAP21

That's it, I'm done. See ya'll next month. 

 

Fuck it. Mostly my fault, but it all sent me over the edge.

Edited October 25, 2018 by Hells Kitchen

[Saint_Guy]

+++ A.L.T.

[Capellan]

I'll play along if MM2 wins, but I'm not going to actively vote for the next few months and instead focus on ploughing through some of the previous DWMC wads I never tried.

 

[VGA]

5 hours ago, Hells Kitchen said:

MAP21

That's it, I'm done. See ya'll next month. 

 

Fuck it. Mostly my fault, but it all sent me over the edge.

Haha, I am guessing you had spent all the rockets on the Cyberdemon and then couldn't handle the Archviles? Infuriating, these difficulty spikes just make for a savescumming fiesta or a full map restart so you can play with hindsight and I don't like it, I rarely replay stuff, I like the map to be fair and beatable on HMP difficulty the first time I play it.

 

 

[Capellan]

 

38 minutes ago, VGA said:

I like the map to be fair and beatable on HMP difficulty the first time I play it.

 

I don't even consider map21 to be one of the "hard" maps, TBH.  My answer remains the same in any case: there are difficulty settings enabled in the WAD.  If you don't use them, you're the one who has to live with the consequences. 

 

For reference, my guideline for difficulty is that UV should make Demon of the Well actually have to work a bit from pistol start, HMP should be achievable for me on continuous with saves (not that continuous matters much on this map), and HNTR should be about 2/3 of HMP.

 

[Summer Deep]

MAP24:  Very tough opening section, the player being sandwiched between Cacos and chaingunners, with too little ammo to deal effectively with the situation. Get the secret shotgun and it becomes more manageable, otherwise you probably can't survive without some use of infighting. I actually only discovered that secret after (somehow) getting through this mini-nightmare, but in fact the additional shells, combined with the acquisition of the SSG and the rockets in the second secret, provided a good platform to regain the initiative in tackling the rest of the map, which was reasonably straightforward. The Arachnotrons were probably the biggest threat, so they were neutralized as soon as possible with rockets, even if that removed some potential usefulness for infighting. A good little map, challenging but enjoyable, in a neatly constructed 'looping' layout.

 

100% kills, 2/3 secrets.

 

 

MAP25:  Did numerous circuits of the arena to give the inevitable infighting a proper chance to thin out the numbers, the only proactive interventions being to take out the Arachnotron and PE with the rockets obtained from the secret alcove, as I felt they were too dangerous to leave at large. Encounters inside the central building were far more hazardous than anything that went before, died once here to the Mancubus. That lift stopping and starting, reversing direction in mid-travel etc, is seriously annoying, not to mention perilous.
Then to the set pieces, with the huge waves of monsters, including the inevitable AVs, who now appear four at a time. The absolute priority has to be on targetting them with the BFG asap, and the fact that they come in pairs at opposite ends of the arena helps. The Arachnotrons also needed to be taken out pretty sharpish too, but the HKs are pretty slow and ineffectual in a space as big as this, and it's almost like shooting fish in a barrel with them by the end.

 

107% kills, 3/3 secrets.

[TheOrganGrinder]

MAP25: Hexadeathimal

 

As a general observation I'm left feeling that MAP22-MAP25 have so far been gentler than MAP21 and that's not just a question of varying difficulty settings as MAP21 was the point at which I stepped the difficulty down; honestly I'm almost wondering at this point if I should've grit my teeth a little harder and stuck through it on Hurt Me Plenty, perhaps finding the following levels to be not quite so beastly.  Something for a future playthrough perhaps.

 

Anyway!  This one is reminiscent of MAP16: Suburbs, with lots of running around to trigger infighting between the swarms of monsters unleashed at various points, though I'm sure a player in the right mood could sprint about and let them all out at once for maximum entertianing chaos.  The trick of course is taking out the arch-viles before their battlefield medicine puts a bigger hole in your ammo stockpile than any amount of infighting can compensate for, and as with the preceding map you've got cacodemons and various enemies in elevated positions to ad a vertical element that makes infighting less straightforward to engender than if the battle were taking place in only two dimensions.

[Capellan]

12 minutes ago, TheOrganGrinder said:

As a general observation I'm left feeling that MAP22-MAP25 have so far been gentler than MAP21.

 

That's interesting.  May be a factor of HNTR as in general I'd expect 23 and 24 on HMP/UV to present a more formidable barrier than 21 (25 is a bit of a "breather map").  

[Spectre01]

MAP20 - “Portal” FDA (1/3 secrets): d404-S01-20-FDA.zip

This seems like the type of map that really benefits from foreknowledge as to which path to quickly take at the start to arm yourself as well is how the trap spawns work. Grabbing the blue key and opening the blue door may as well be the same fight twice, since a Vile resurrects enemies from across the ditch while enemies spawn in everywhere, and you're better off camping the leftmost room. Enemies have trouble pathing in there and you can simply rocket the Vile stuck on the ledge with his buddies without much threat.

 

Apparently this ends our virtual trip, which seemed a tad too realistic with its industrial bases and dank underground caverns.

[Spectre01]

MAP21 - “Daemon” FDA-Max: d404-S01-21-FDA-Max.zip

I was expecting something a bit more sinister from some of the responses, but this is a rather wholesome Cyber-infighting simulator. Reminds me a bit of the first map of Ancient Aliens. Rocket ammo is also very generous here, and it seems like you don't even have to make the Cyber kill everything for you. Pretty cool.

[Capellan]

Just now, Spectre01 said:

I was expecting something a bit more sinister from some of the responses.

 

I'm confused too!

I would genuinely like to know the specifics of what issue(s) people have run into ("it's too hard" is not specific :) ).

 

The 2nd sentence is true of every map, not just 21.

[Spectre01]

MAP22 - “Terrorbyte” FDA (2/3 secrets): d404-S01-22-FDA.zip

That Berserk would've been fantastic early on, but I wasn't in the mood for lava-diving without a suit. Shooting Pinkies with rockets kind of feels strange and wasteful, but that's exactly what you do here if you want all the kills going in blind. That ledge near the exit door is a great spot to rocket them when they're all bunched up, if not a bit risky due to splashing yourself. I don't know about OpenGL, but the Spectres in the starting cave are invisible in Software mode with how dark it is, so there really isn't much combat that can be done there unless you grab those light-amp goggles, which I didn't quite figure out.

[TheOrganGrinder]

26 minutes ago, Capellan said:

I would genuinely like to know the specifics of what issue(s) people have run into ("it's too hard" is not specific :) ).

 

There's a limit to how specific I can be on a map with a generally high chaos level and lots of moving parts (monsters) but from what I reacall of a few days ago:

 

1) This one is entirely self-inflicted, but I didn't realise at first that the mixed monster hordes (waiting in sectors 42 and 74) and the arch-viles (in sectors 39 and 46) were released by separate triggers; chalk that one up to tunnel vision and the generally high level of noise and chaos in the map distracting me from noticing sectors 41 and 74 lowering for the handful of moments it took me to sprint from the edge of the Cyberdemon's platform to the blue switch.  Also, given that I casued a sequence break in MAP14 earlier by failing to pick up the blue key on my first attempt, it didn't occur to me that it might be intended for the player to dash onto the Cyberdemon's platform and not hit the switch right away.

 

2) The one-two punch of obstacles in both the south-east corner (mancubus) and the south-west corner (slowly lowering platform, plus a wave of demons and Hell Knights) was frustrating to me, with a map that was on the one hand telling me move move move, or you'll be trapped in a corner by cacodemons or killed by a rocket blast! and on the other hand preventing me from doing exactly that, pushing me instead to backpedal and get tangled up in the very troubles I was trying to run away from.  I mean, I get what these are about, you know?  A Doom level is at its heart an obstacle course, a creative set of challenges to be overcome.  I just didn't find these particular obstacles and their placement within the flow of the map to be fun ones.  How feasible would it be to swap the eastern towers?  Or is that particular pacing, with a player travelling in a clockwise direction encounter two clear corners and then two blocked corners, critical to the intended gameplay and experience of the map, vs. clear-blocked-clea-blocked?

[Capellan]

@TheOrganGrinder

 

Thanks.  No promises I will actually change anything :), but the more specific feedback like that I get, the more info I have to work with.

 

Can you give more detail about what happened on MAP14?

 

Edit: actually, I think I recall - this was the 'flick the switch but didn't grab the key' thing, right?  I've already addressed that to make it easier to get back on the platform after the marble block lowers.

 

Edited October 26, 2018 by Capellan

[Spectre01]

MAP23 - “Biomatrix” FDA (2/3 secrets): d404-S01-23-FDA.zip

That's quite a few Mancs and Viles there! I spent way too long trying to get all the secrets. This map would be more fun with a normally available SSG, otherwise I feel that there is too much emphasis on pacifist trolling and getting enemies to shoot each other instead of actually fighting. The starting Shotgun ammo is minuscule and even the Chaingun and Green Armour are far enough into the map that you'll end up alerting more than you can handle going for them. I guess the intention here is that continuous is more fun for blind playthroughs while pistol-starting is more aimed at routing/speedrunning? I don't know. Well, at least I got to practice dodging Mancs. I'm also finding software rendering and its fully invisible Spectres increasingly irritating.

[Capellan]

10 minutes ago, Spectre01 said:

I'm also finding software rendering and its fully invisible Spectres increasingly irritating.

 

I play with pr-boom+ and software rendering and the spectres are definitely not fully invisible.  Are you using a different port?  If not, then maybe your monitor display is significantly darker than mine.

 

[Spectre01]

I'm also using PRBoom+ at 0 gamma correction. Here's an example of what I meant in map23:

Spoiler

 

The Spectre is under the Imp/Plasma Rifle secret just to the right of my Shotgun. And it's even harder to spot them when moving around quickly and paying attention to other enemies.

[Capellan]

@Spectre01  I'll have to take your word for it that there's a spectre there!  It's definitely not that hard to spot them on my screen.

 

 

Also, here's a rejigged version of map21.  If anyone gives it a try and lets me know how they think it compares to the original, I'd be grateful.

[Spectre01]

MAP24 - “Sintax” FDA (2/3 secrets): d404-S01-24-FDA.zip

Ok, let's get the venting out of the way first: There is simply not enough health in this map considering all the surprise Chaingunners that appear even before you encounter the Green Armour. I am also not liking this trend of not giving the player proper supplies and forcing them to skip monsters while running deeper into the map, which triggers more monsters, creating a clusterfuck for the player without foreknowledge. I can't actually think of many maps like this in established megawads that aren't "speedrunner bait" or 90's stuff with peculiar pistol start balancing.

That aside, I like the visuals that remind me of E3 of the original Scythe as well as the simple but effective looping progression taking you back to the start with changes to the geometry. I grabbed the secrets after everything was dead, since I wasn't about to go lava-diving at sub-100HP with no suit. Oh, and there was a stuck Mancubus on a ledge with the Pinkies after you get out of the cave.

Edited October 26, 2018 by Spectre01

[Capellan]

1 hour ago, Spectre01 said:

MAP24 - “Sintax” FDA (2/3 secrets): d404-S01-24-FDA.zip

there was a stuck Mancubus on a ledge with the Pinkies after you get out of the cave.

 

Neither the Manc nor the pinkies should be up there but I was a numpty and used a slow rise linedef instead of an instra-rise.  I've fixed that (but haven't updated the download link yet)

[Summer Deep]

2 hours ago, Capellan said:

 

 

Also, here's a rejigged version of map21.  If anyone gives it a try and lets me know how they think it compares to the original, I'd be grateful.

 

 

Maybe has made a marginal difference - seems to have made it a bit easier to give the player unencumbered access to the RL in order to more effectively attack the HKs and demons ahead, if required (the imps guarding it being drawn toward the starting area through the newly created space). The sergeant is no longer drawn to that area, and dispatching him appears to make a couple of Cacos spawn earlier and enable them to be cleared out of the way. Not sure whether the new arrangement makes a difference to when the PE spawns, still haven't worked out how that occurs, had the impression it might have delayed it. The new position of the switch which opens the blue door is an improvement.

[VGA]

10 hours ago, Capellan said:

 

I'm confused too!

I would genuinely like to know the specifics of what issue(s) people have run into ("it's too hard" is not specific :) ).

 

The 2nd sentence is true of every map, not just 21.

I spent all my rockets on the Cyberdemon which seemed like the "boss" of the level and there is no SSG on the map (unless it's a secret). So when the 2 Archies showed up I had only the Chaingun and the Shotgun and they were reviving high-HP meatshields like Mancubi.

 

So I would either have to reload a save or run to the exit maybe. With foresight the map is easier, that's why it doesn't seem hard to you, who built the map.

[gaspe]

MAP25: For a change there's a big space where to move this time. Like @TheOrganGrinder I thought of Suburbs while playing this map, big groups of monsters and infighting is encouraged. You have to be careful about the avs that will be released multiple times, the outdoor is big and looking for cover can be difficult. Thankfully there was the BFG to have some good fun with it.

[Urthar]

+++ Avactor & Pirate Doom

Edited October 26, 2018 by Urthar

[Aquila Chrysaetos]

I know I haven't participated this month, but I still want to cast my vote.

+++Doom the Way id Did

[Phobus]

MAP24 - This felt like a breather map compared to the last one. There's a lot of chaingunners that could do a lot of damage, but they tend to be in front of you and in smaller spaces in small groups. I actually managed to finish this on 100 health and armour by leaving the armour pick up until the end and finding two secrets (the third had a superfluous shotgun and radsuit). Ammo was comfortable, damage potential was pretty low and I built my health back up from the low lava damage I sustained. I suspect carefully playing FEAR as of late may have rubbed off on my Doom playing. The meat of the map is Cacodemons, but they don't really surround or ambush you like in other maps.

 

MAP25 - It wasn't quite the breather I expected it to be from what other people said. I think the AVs in such an open area were quite lethal as you couldn't rely on infighting to distract them and the BFG9000 isn't enough to interrupt them from afar, so there's a lot of risky rushing in to get things started. I found the rocket launcher secret early on, but had to get the chaingun and soulsphere through careful checking after everything was dead. It's a good map and a nice change of pace from a lot of the recent experience of feeling either under powered or vulnerable, as a BFG and plenty of ammo tends to encourage a lot more daring play to get the best results.

 

I won't cast a vote on next month, as I have no intention of taking part. NaNoWADMo will be all the Doom I need...

Edited October 26, 2018 by Phobus