Similarities between Doom and DnD mapping?

[SOSU]

DnD seems to be a crucial part of Doom,Id were big fans of DnD with the whole theme of satanic invasion being based of a DnD session of theirs and the Cacodemons design is based of the Astral Dreadnought a enemy from DnD.I have heard many times that the reason the Doom maps are so well designed is that the mappers had a lot of experience making DnD maps but i always found that weird because Doom and DnD are such different games from combat (Doom's real time action and DnD's turn based battles) to movement (Moving DoomGuy with WASD/the directional keys and how you move in DnD which i don't know how that works).Do any of you Doomers that are also DnD fans tell me of some of the simmiliarites between making Doom maps in Doombuilder and making DnD maps on paper?

Edited November 29, 2018 by SOSU

[FractalBeast]

The Cacodemons are actually based on the Astral Dreadnought.

 

As for your question how similar Doom and D&D mapping is... they're very similar at a conceptual level. Layout, dungeon/level flow, building tension and telling a story, atmosphere, these are skills you can carry over from D&D to whatever videogame you're mapping for. Of course, when you get down to the nittygritty, all that D&D experience counts for nothing, because most DM's will just draw out dungeons like it's Wolfenstein3D.

[kb1]

Ever since I played text adventure games, and then D&D, I wanted a way to get the computer to host such games, manage player and monster stats, manage combat etc. And, instead of the DM describing the scene, if the computer could render it, wow you've really got something. This is a dream many people have had.

 

Doom handles a lot of those requests: It graphically describes the scene, manages combat, some stats for the player and monsters, etc. Doom is an extension of that vision. Of course the id guys were inspired by D&D, as well as movies, and video games. Another game that fulfills some of this vision: Gauntlet. It has monsters, spells, keys, etc. And it renders the scene in 2D, and allows up to 4-person multiplayer.

 

With a lot of modifications, scripting, and programming, a Doom source port could host a lot more D&D elements and game play.

[Empyre]

22 hours ago, kb1 said:

Ever since I played text adventure games, and then D&D, I wanted a way to get the computer to host such games, manage player and monster stats, manage combat etc. And, instead of the DM describing the scene, if the computer could render it, wow you've really got something. This is a dream many people have had.

Neverwinter Nights does that pretty well, using DnD version 3.0 rules, and it even has a mode where one player takes the role of the DM. Beamdog is making an EE version of NWN right now.

[joepallai]

Back in the earlier days, it did feel like I was playing someone else's dungeon when I played a PWAD.   As a longtime DM (and for my group the only DM) I always knew what to expect within the adventure or module I had planned; but with a PWAD you were crawling around inside someone's imagination and couldn't predict anything (until you looked at the maps in the editor).

 

Things that are similar:

 

Top down map view and construction  (I sketch out an idea on paper then refine the idea in both cases.)

 

Wandering monsters if you use sound propagation and non-deaf monsters (or run away after encountering them)

 

blind teleports (the original Castle Greyhawk dungeon was known for its identical rooms with blind teleports that would force the players to use their maps--if they bothered to have mapped.)   (I think that's one of the reasons there's an automap; that and maps were becoming basic features for the player by then) (granted the sound and graphics gives it away in Doom but ever since Boom this is possible to do)

 

 

 

[General Rainbow Bacon]

@OP  The Cacodemon is based on the Astral Dreadnought not the Beholder.  

 

Whenever I make a map for doom/dnd I also think of how I would make an encounter for the other game so that I only really need to make one map/scenario.  I think imps are very minion-esque and use them when I'm thinking of a minion for a DnD campaign.  I have also actually used doombuilder to draw up early versions of dnd maps.  

[TheOrganGrinder]

I've definitely compared Tom Hall's style of map design and layout (tending towards filling as much of a rectangular bounding box as possible) with AD&D modules in which the maps were printed on the inside of the front and back covers.

[kb1]

On 11/28/2018 at 9:24 PM, Empyre said:

Neverwinter Nights does that pretty well, using DnD version 3.0 rules, and it even has a mode where one player takes the role of the DM. Beamdog is making an EE version of NWN right now.

I think of Doom as a game that takes parts of D&D and does them really well, and avoids anything that would slow it down. For example, like in text adventure games, in D&D, you can take as long as you want to make your move. Of course, that doesn't work in Doom, as it is real time.

 

So, a computer D&D game has to make some hard decisions when defining the game play. Here, we all love the real-time battles of Doom. The question is, how can you have the real-time battles of Doom, yet also handle all the other D&D stuff. Answers to that question directly decide how the game feels, and, probably, how much fun it would be.

Edited November 30, 2018 by kb1

[Soundblock]

With a few lines, both allow you to convey a space and fill it with as much atmosphere as you can muster + engrossing challenges to overcome inside of a rock solid game framework.

 

My map making iron already being hot from having made oodles of D&D maps and having several more in the making at the time, is probably why I shot out the gates with a modicum of speed once Doom was out.

[Phoby]

Doom is a very non-linear game, much like D&D. I remember drawing dungeons for my group for hours, and one of the things I always wanted was a lot of decision making and puzzle solving, much in the same way Doom is designed. I think a great example both design and aesthetic wise is River Styx from TNT. The name takes inspiration from mythology, which D&D does as lot.

[ETTiNGRiNDER]

Interesting trivia: Some of the level designs in Witchaven actually were based on a third-party tabletop RPG map supplement.

Possibly also interesting: Witchaven is widely regarded as having bad level design.

[SOSU]

@ETTiNGRiNDER Very interesting!

Is it know on what those maps were specifically based on?I wonder if they play as bad as the Witchhaven maps :)

Oh and also is that the case with both Witchavens or just the first one?

[ETTiNGRiNDER]

Here's some further info, around the middle of this page:

http://ettingrinder.youfailit.net/wh-trivia.html

As far as I know, Witchaven II used completely original maps, and generally gave the impression that the level designers (mostly) had a better grasp of what they were doing.  Too bad most other aspects of the sequel got worse instead of better.

[kb1]

11 hours ago, ETTiNGRiNDER said:

Interesting trivia: Some of the level designs in Witchaven actually were based on a third-party tabletop RPG map supplement.

Possibly also interesting: Witchaven is widely regarded as having bad level design.

That's a real shame, because Witchhaven has some really cool concepts, and neat editing capabilities. I was kinda blown away with the 3D floor/bridge thingy early on. The game has a neat feel and atmosphere to it. It's difficult to explain why it doesn't quite work. I really wanted to like it (and do, to some point). A Witchhaven TC for Doom could really kick ass!)

[ETTiNGRiNDER]

@kb1 I rather like it, myself, but yeah, as for the level design I think the big problem was the mazes.  And not "mazes" like people sometimes gripe about Doom's levels being but honest to goodness mazes (take a look at level 13 for instance...)  Aside from that I'm going to bank on "subtly yet deeply buggy".  Stuff as basic as player movement can get weird because it's CPU speed sensitive and some items don't work the way the manual says they do (and in one case, doesn't do anything at all).  For Witchaven II throw in "trashed what weapon/enemy/xp level balance the first game had".

 

I actually started on a Witchaven conversion for ZDoom once but didn't go very far with it since I figured it wouldn't be well received for the amount of effort it'd take.  Maybe I'm wrong.

[Skeletonpatch]

On 11/27/2018 at 10:47 AM, FractalBeast said:

The Cacodemons are actually based on the Astral Dreadnought.

On 11/29/2018 at 11:33 AM, General Rainbow Bacon said:

@OP  The Cacodemon is based on the Astral Dreadnought not the Beholder. 

 

The Cacodemon got it's design and functionality from the Beholder, but its actual appearance was copied from the Astral Dreadnought's face. So the Cacodemon is, in a sense, an amalgamation of the Beholder and the Astral Dreadnought.

 

^{(By the way I really want a copy of that book just for the cover art alone...)}

[kb1]

1 hour ago, ETTiNGRiNDER said:

@kb1 I rather like it, myself

 

Really?  :)

 

1 hour ago, ETTiNGRiNDER said:

I actually started on a Witchaven conversion for ZDoom once but didn't go very far with it since I figured it wouldn't be well received for the amount of effort it'd take.  Maybe I'm wrong.

If the weapons, and some of the monsters were converted and animated, I bet the community would jump at the idea of making some maps. For textures, Hexen/Heretic textures might be a good fit, with or without the WH textures.

 

I bet it would even be fun with shotguns and rocket launchers! I really wish there was more medieval content. I wanted Heretic, then Hexen to fill that void, and they did, to some degree. "Medieval" is harder to get right than "tech base", I think, especially when you consider guns vs. swords, powerups vs. spells, hi-tech vs. magic. Guns are just so much damn fun, you know. A game like WH, by definition, probably has to be a little bit slower, with more organic settings. WH was just a bit more D&D-like, with Strength and Stamina stats, variable weapon damage. Those aspects could be enhanced as well.

 

In D&D, players die less often, as they accumulate powers over days, weeks, months. And, they sometimes have large campaigns. These track counter to Doom's fast gameplay. But I still think a WitchHaven TC could be classy and fun, but it'd be a lot of work, that's for sure.