SIGIL v1.21 - New Romero megawad [released!]

[Linguica]

I think it's indisputable that John Romero is only making this because of the Doom community. And I don't just mean that in the sense that the only reason he has modern tools to work with is because of the Doom community, although that is also indisputably true. In fact, I feel like he said as much - that the response to E1M8B, both generally and within the Doom community, was more overwhelming than he anticipated, and it gave him the idea to continue on and make the full episode. I think that says just about all that needs to be said about how important we are, to him, and not just vice versa.

 

If you maybe want some more objective evidence, after E1M8B was released, and there was the Noclip documentary about him, I (obviously) watched the footage like the Zapruder film, and noticed:

 

 

If you don't remember, I actually made a physical Cacoward and shipped it to him after he won one for E1M8B. And it showed up in the B-roll of a documentary about his new work in Ireland, totally unrelated to anything, apparently in a prominent award case, up at eye level...which means he thinks winning a Cacoward from Doomworld to be at least kinda a cool thing?

 

So my point is: John Romero is making a new Doom episode because of us, and in part, for us, and considering he's John Romero, I think he deserves some goodwill here.

[ReaperAA]

6 hours ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

RIP PrBoom+ demos

 

6 hours ago, Egg Boy said:

I hope it works on PrBoom+.

 

*Cough* Eternity Engine *Cough*

[Marcaek]

ling made the most important post in this thread

[Linguica]

And, look, I want to be clear: I am not putting a political diktat on this thread or on Doomworld. You are fine to argue over this until the cows come home so long as you remain respectful and sociable. I just personally think that John Romero, objectively, provably, is making a new Doom episode so that we, the Doom community, can play it. And it's gonna come out in like two months, and it'll be great, or else it will be just fine, and we will all play it and it will become an integral part of the Doom community's DNA, forever. But that is still two months from now. So let's just... bask in the moment, here. We are all anticipating a new Doom episode from John Romero. In ten years you would kill someone to relive this time, so don't waste it with petty and pointless bickering right now!

[Sparktimus]

12 hours ago, Rimantas said:

Of course, Romero could have made full megawad for Doom's 25th birthday, since he calls himself fan of game and he made only few maps for OG games. Doom community members makes full megawads for decades. But if Romero gives only 9 maps, LET IT BE. I personally don't think he is very talented on making maps nor we lost something special by receiving miniwad from him. I'm perfectly happy with community's wads and megawads.

Again I ask: What exactly does Romero owe to any of us? He's already made two more maps more than any of the other original id employees after Doom's initial release, and nevermind the fact that he was directly involved with creating the game itself. Now he's actually coming out with a complete episode of the game, and yes, I get it. It's not technically a megawad. It's an episode. Big deal. Nevertheless, It's an entire fucking episode by Romero himself. Yet, he's not "a Doom fan" because he didn't just come right out of the gate with 32 new maps or something? Are we forgetting that the vast majority of these megawads are team efforts and that Romero is just one man? How jaded are you?

Romero could've easily just let Doom's 25th come and go with no fanfare and no one would've held it against him, but he actually shows that he is working on something substantial for a game that is now a quarter century old, and to me, that's more than enough to show me that the dude still has passion for this game and the community that it has created. He already did with E1m4b and E1m8b. So it makes absolutely no sense to me to gatekeep one of the original id employees because he can't produce megawads on the level of Eviternity or Valiant out of a hat. I'm not knocking those wads btw, far from it. What I'm saying is that measuring someone's Doom fandom based on what they produce and its actual worth is hogwash. Unless it's a terrywad, it's fucking amazing to me that people still make anything for this game. Hell, Sigil could be decent at best and I still think it's super cool that it even exists in the first place.

I'm also not saying that you should just blindly like this mapset, either. Anyone is completely free to be skeptical and just generally not be a fan of his maps, but discounting his contribution as a Doom fan because he can't make a certain type of thing is ridiculous gatekeeping. The dude isn't trying to be better than those maps or prove that he can be as good as some of the mappers in this community. He is contributing because he loves a game he had a hand in the inception of. There is nothing wrong with that at all and if you think there is, perhaps you should evaluate your own Doom fandom instead of criticizing someone else's.

Edited December 13, 2018 by Sparktimus

[Mayomancer]

38 minutes ago, Linguica said:

If you don't remember, I actually made a physical Cacoward and shipped it to him after he won one for E1M8B

 

Is it the new high-definition Cacoward though

[⇛Marnetmar⇛]

If John Romero REALLY cared about this community he would have given us Back To The Shores Of Deth Vult Episode 3 and a happy meal. I don't see any happy meals anywhere, do you?

Edited December 13, 2018 by Marn

[Kellson]

Never would have expected to see anything like this but by the looks of it everything is possible.

[Nancsi]

Talking about the snippets we have seen so far, am I the only one who thinks the map shown in the trailer with the cybie is heavily reminiscent to the boss level of NRFTL? I mean it seems like a cat and mouse game between the two with multiple small corridors.

[ketmar]

10 hours ago, Nevander said:

Why are so many people upset over compatibility?

because vanilla is the lowest common denominator. there is not only one sourceport out there. and there are many people that prefer to play in something like Crispy, for example.

 

10 hours ago, Nevander said:

How hard is it to download a limit removing port and play it?

it is not hard. and it is not fun. even free look feels different in different sourceports, and i must say that it matters ALOT. there are many small things that aren't fatal, but can be annoying. and videogames are about fun, not about forcing people to adapt to things they don't like for nothing.

 

p.s.: i myself think that LCD is boom compatibility, but chocolate doom players will certainly not agree. ;-)

Edited December 13, 2018 by ketmar

[Sparktimus]

2 minutes ago, ketmar said:

because vanilla is the lowest common denominator. there is not only one sourceport out there. and there are many people that prefer to play in spmething like Crispy, for example.

 

it is not hard. and it is not fun. even free look feels different in different sourceports, and i must say that it matters ALOT. there are many small things that aren't fatal, but can be annoying. and videogames are about fun, not about forcing people to adapt to things they don't like for nothing.

Taking 3 minutes of time to set up a source port isn't going to kill you.

[GooberMan]

This thread in two months time:

 

[kb1]

I'm trying to be completely respectful in my responses:

 

7 hours ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

How about not using a pirated version of Doom and actually stumping up the cash these people rightfully asked for their work instead?

If anybody made anything for Doom for free in the first place it's this community, the iWADs were never for free.

Pirated version of Doom? What are you talking about? I guess you're referring to my statement about us enjoying the game for free for 25 years. I didn't mean that anyone failed to pay for Doom - I was referring to the 100k of free PWADs, that we've been enjoying for 25 years. Didn't realize that that was not clear.

 

7 hours ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

How about respecting these people while still being allowed to be critical about their work? Does that simple concept fit into your small bubble?

My "small bubble?" That's not being respectful about my opinion...

Should we be critical about John's work before actually playing it?

 

7 hours ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

Not being hyped doesn't mean there is no appreciation at all. Learn to let people like or dislike what they want you belligerent inquisitor.

('belligerent inquisitor.'? I'm being respected again, I guess...)

 

You know, I'm sorry - I made some assumptions:

1. I assume that, any regular visitor to this site must be here because of a love for Doom.
2. If that's true, surely that feeling extends somewhat to the creators.
3. I also assume that if the above were true, anyone here would be excited that a creator was building more levels and giving them back to the community, while also offering a deluxe package for sale, to fund new game ventures, I think.

Apparently, I got something wrong. I guess I just don't understand why any Doomworld regular would not be ecstatic that Romero himself was using the community's best new tools to make a brand-new episode, that can truly be labeled "Doom, the way Id Did It".

 

So, with all due respect, I must ask: Why are you not excited, stoked, or hyped? And, what type of Doom-related offering announcement would you be excited, stoked, or hyped about? Or, is it just a disappointment-avoidance, glass-half-empty thing for you? Just trying to understand.

 

[Soundblock]

From what’s been on display so far, I’m loving the increased scope of JR’s architecture with limits removed. If the use of traps and mechanics (by the guy who reportedly coded most of them into the engine) are as good as the previous two maps, i’ll be gobbling this up with glee.

 

Don’t yet know what level of purchase i’ll be making, but at the off chance of the Doom II offering that i’m really craving (super shotgun, revvies, ARCHVILES ala Romero? - room for new ground here) i’m really considering the beast box (even though i largely don’t collect memorabilia).

 

This giant’s shoulders about to be made wider methinks. Mad props for doing this, hat and skull cap well off.

 

Thanks daddy. Sorry for being a bad boy.

Edited December 13, 2018 by Soundblock

[drfrag]

2 hours ago, kb1 said:

I made some assumptions

 I find the attitude of some guys pretty offensive and i think they've managed to derail this thread and that's a shame.

Considering this is a Doom forum i also was wondering some things:

Could that attitude be considered trolling? What do they intend? Just do some damage for the sake of it? Should moderation actions be taken? Should this thread be sanitized? Just a few questions nothing more. Shameful.

I'm also excited and hyped and i'd take a Romero wad over most of those megawads any time. I'm the guy who played E1 over 200 times back in the day after all and that was on a 386sx.

 

Edited December 13, 2018 by drfrag

[Dark Pulse]

9 hours ago, Sparktimus said:

He's already made two more maps more than any of the other original id employees after Doom's initial release[... ]

Not to be "that guy," but Tim Willits did make Kick Attack, and there is American McGee's IDMAP01 so technically he's made two maps more than most of the id guys. And for a few of them (like anyone literally not those guys, Sandy Petersen, or Tom Hall technically), he's made infinitely more maps - I don't see any maps by Kevin Cloud or Adrian Carmack.

 

Thrust of your point is otherwise right on the money though.

Edited December 13, 2018 by Dark Pulse
Gotta love autocorrect.

[geo]

4 hours ago, GooberMan said:

This thread in two months time:

 

Sigil is the closest thing we'll ever get to a good Doom 3!

[Manuel-K]

23 minutes ago, Dark Pulse said:

Tom Ball

That's a weird typo/insult.

[DooM_RO]

Right uuuh, so sorry again for my outburst.

 

Anyway, here's another perspective: While Romero is obviously a really good designer, it doesn't seem like he has really touched Doombuilder in years so even if he wanted to make the next Sunlust, I'm not sure he's there yet. Even if he'd like to make such maps/megawads in the future I doubt he has the time to invest to get to that level. In other words, he hasn't grown with us over the years and it seems he has only just recently got back into the loop. So for what it is, the WAD is looking pretty good. 

[snapshot]

Romero must really love having small Red Cracks on floors lol, do they also damage you like in e1m8b? we'll see...

Edited December 13, 2018 by tempdecal.wad
typo

[Dark Pulse]

15 minutes ago, Manuel-K said:

That's a weird typo/insult.

Phone typing sucks, yep. 

[DooM_RO]

14 minutes ago, tempdecal.wad said:

Romero must really love having small Red Cracks on floors lol, do they also damage you like in e1m8b? we'll see...

 

I'm gonna steal it.

[Nine Inch Heels]

4 hours ago, kb1 said:

I was referring to the 100k of free PWADs, that we've been enjoying for 25 years. Didn't realize that that was not clear.

And who made all those pWADs? Was it Romero or was it this community? Sure id did everyone of us a huge favour in making the game as open to modifying as it is, and I applaud them for that in particular, but that doesn't mean I need to appreciate and/or anticipate their maps more than anybody else's, nobody does. You forget that some of us didn't grow up playing doom, including yours truly. I don't have that strong sense of nostalgia that some of you have, so obviously a lot of these "Romero is back with new Romero stuff" notions are lost on me, and maybe also others around here too.

4 hours ago, kb1 said:

My "small bubble?" That's not being respectful about my opinion...

Should we be critical about John's work before actually playing it?

I have said several times by now that my current opinion is based on what has been shown so far, and if you followed this thread a bit more I also said that judging the entire product based on a trailer and a stream is throwing the baby out with the bathwater, so clearly I didn't pass any verdict about the entire thing by now - something you and some others seem to have overlooked. You on the other hand saw fit to tell me that my life was fucking miserable on the basis that I'm not aboard the hype train just yet. And you wanna talk to me about respecting opinions..?

 

Maybe my opinion changes when more stuff is shown, maybe the finished product is one of best things since sliced bread. Who knows? Until I've seen something that actually captivates me I'm not gonna raise my pulse rate because of this WAD. It does not mean I'm not happy that Romero is making maps, and judged on the streams he is happy with what he created (which is the most important thing), good for him and anybody who likes those maps when they're out.

5 hours ago, kb1 said:

So, with all due respect, I must ask: Why are you not excited, stoked, or hyped?

I think I explained that above and also in previous posts, if that doesn't do it then I don't know what will.

[Marlamir]

I know i'm late but those are awesome news. The fact he was want it to make maps for long time and now he finaly push himself to do it is great. I'm really excited about how good those map going to be.

[GooberMan]

2 hours ago, geo said:

Sigil is the closest thing we'll ever get to a good Doom 3!

It's more of a Doom 1.5 ⅓ though, which does have a 3 in it I'll admit.

[jazzmaster9]

On 12/11/2018 at 9:01 PM, DooM_RO said:

You guys are basically tell me that amateur modders can make amazing stuff like custom weapons, great texture sets like OTEX, even entire total conversions like REKKR and Adventures of Square as amateurs and he can't. Come on...

So the mappers who choose to only use stock textures and monsters cant make better products that people who make TCs? Come on...

[Gunstar Green]

3 hours ago, DooM_RO said:

Right uuuh, so sorry again for my outburst.

 

Anyway, here's another perspective: While Romero is obviously a really good designer, it doesn't seem like he has really touched Doombuilder in years so even if he wanted to make the next Sunlust, I'm not sure he's there yet. Even if he'd like to make such maps/megawads in the future I doubt he has the time to invest to get to that level. In other words, he hasn't grown with us over the years and it seems he has only just recently got back into the loop. So for what it is, the WAD is looking pretty good. 

 

I think it's best to take it for what it is. Like Romero said, it's meant to be an episode 5 and it follows along those lines. Nothing in Sigil is bound to blow our minds or be that new and different. It's just a few new levels made to fit in with the old ones by John Romero. I'm not sure anyone is sitting here thinking this is going to be the best set of Doom levels ever though there's more than a strong chance they'll be very good.

 

It's just cool that they'll exist. It's like a favorite artist coming out of retirement to do one more piece in the style of their biggest hit. It might not be a masterpiece but it's special for those who find the significance in it.

 

8 hours ago, ketmar said:

because vanilla is the lowest common denominator. there is not only one sourceport out there. and there are many people that prefer to play in something like Crispy, for example.

 

it is not hard. and it is not fun. even free look feels different in different sourceports, and i must say that it matters ALOT. there are many small things that aren't fatal, but can be annoying. and videogames are about fun, not about forcing people to adapt to things they don't like for nothing.

 

p.s.: i myself think that LCD is boom compatibility, but chocolate doom players will certainly not agree. ;-)

 

I'm of two minds here really. Part of me wishes I could just run this with vanilla and pretend it's 1994 again but the other part is aware it's about to be 2019 and I should stop being so silly.

Edited December 13, 2018 by Gunstar Green

[DooM_RO]

26 minutes ago, jazzmaster9 said:

So the mappers who choose to only use stock textures and monsters cant make better products that people who make TCs? Come on...

 

Of course they can. I worked with stock textures for a long time. It's just that when I saw the logo, music and so on, I was hoping we'd get new "stock" textures but I'm over it now.

[Nancsi]

40 minutes ago, jazzmaster9 said:

So the mappers who choose to only use stock textures and monsters cant make better products that people who make TCs? Come on...

 

Yeah. And the funniest thing is most of these glorified TCs rip textures, enemies, sounds, weapons from other games, change their palette, and voila, that's now a creative work. How on Earth Romero dared to use only stock textures for a game which was meant to be played that way, with those textures, those enemies, those sounds, those weapons, and how he dared to not rip off some Duke, Blood etc stuff to mess up with the game's coherent aesthetics/atmosphere.

[Gez]

3 hours ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

And who made all those pWADs? Was it Romero or was it this community?

Romero hasn't been employed by id Software for a long, long while and he's working on Sigil as an individual, not as a company. Basically, Romero is in the community now. Certainly he gets more name recognition than most but that's fine and no reason to begrudge him. Let me put it that way: I don't spend time going through every single project thread to post in those that don't interest me that I'm not impressed or that such or such other project is more to my taste.

 

8 hours ago, kb1 said:

Apparently, I got something wrong. I guess I just don't understand why any Doomworld regular would not be ecstatic that Romero himself was using the community's best new tools to make a brand-new episode, that can truly be labeled "Doom, the way Id Did It".

More like Doom The Way Id Would If It Was Still The Old Team From The Nineties And They Made Limit-Removing Maps With Modern Tools Over Two Decades Later; but DTWIWIIWSTOTFTNATMLRMWMTOTDL is a less catchy acronym than DTWID I must admit.

Edited December 13, 2018 by Gez