SIGIL v1.21 - New Romero megawad [released!]

[ketmar]

@eyelid easy deal. get nuts.wad, do iddqd, idkfa -- and you'll get everything you're asking for!

[eyelid]

27 minutes ago, Kira said:

Isn't the Icon of Sin the final battle anyway?

 

Edit: it's a reply to @eyelid

That's the end of Doom II. Now Ultimate Doom's ending is couple of dark corridors where you meet spider and cybie and you don't even need to kill them. No final battle at all, Hellish force not even trying. What on Earth is this really?

In Original Doom you actually meet Spider Demon which could be killed way too easily with BFG but that actually felt final boss of Doom I after exhausting levels of Inferno,  then things got pretty weird after they decided to release thy flesh and sigil making everything just a mess. Just wandering in dark inferno corridors when after inferno player should be sent back to earth? No earth be seen still in these 2 episodes, no human made buildings or nothing, no introduction to doom 2 map 1. No Nothing at all to build the bridge between doom 1 and Doom II? Still just endless inferno maps like episode 3 end ever happened...weird. In this style you could build endless Thy Flesh and Sigil episodes and never reach anything like earth or StarBase and community won't like them as Thy Flesh is the least loved episode on Doom.

Edited May 31, 2019 by eyelid

[TheMightyHeracross]

58 minutes ago, eyelid said:

E6M7 should have 1000 monsters, no compromises. Hell forces should occupy every square meter with some monster behind every corner and try to kill player as we're this far already. 

 

This would be completely out of place for Doom 1. As a PWAD sure, but official Doom maps rarely, if ever, crossed into slaughtermap territory.

 

Quote

Holy spirit should guide player to open secrets like ammunition and superchargers, this can be done on modern ports.  In these modern days we're absolut tired about searching secrets to make things even and have cramped nightmarish areas with little ammo, (this is like doom3 and we hate Doom3) it's not modern style of gaming.

 

"We"... are? Since when? Secret hunting has always been a main part of Doom gameplay. And old games, Doom 1 especially, had plenty of "cramped" areas where you had to watch ammo. Have you ever played E4?

 

 

Also, you're complaining about this episode being too "Doom 3" while demanding an NPC character to show you around the map? 

 

 

Quote

And no, I am not whiney cry baby bitch, I completed this on UltraViolence, but somehow Mr. romero forgot completely, what's fun in gaming. This wasn't fun. Making player feel powerful is fun. We have a need to kill hundreads of monsters as hell really tries to kill poor player putting everything it has against, and then turn it to eleven. Make player to shout loud "F*uuuuuuuuck" when they're against Hellish forces when they psychopathically try kill player in every fucking way over and over again.

 

Making the player feel challenged is fun, and that's exactly what Romero did. Not through giant 1000-enemy slaughtmaps though, but through carefully crafted challenges and by using the environment and strategic placement of demons.

 

Quote

Have Demonic laughter all over the place and creepy "you're dying now" samples all over the place and you're done. 

 

This is just silly.

 

Quote

Ultimate Doom deserves proper ending.

Sigil's last level was kinda anticlimax, we need epic biblish last battle with hundreads of monsters. I know Romero can do it, so please. Things are still in progress after Sigil. This wasn't end.

If this was the last remaining Hell as Sigil it visioned, then they really didn't try it at all. Some couple of dark corridors is the final battle? Come on really...You can do better.

sincerely yours.
1st. Lieutenant.

 

It sounds like what you want is Plutonia. Or better yet, a Slaughterfest wad. Probably with Brutal Doom or something. Or maybe just nuts.wad with Russian Overkill.

 

Because what you're describing sounds nothing like anything that was in Doom 1.

 

EDIT: Also, this isn't meant to be "the last of Hell." It takes place in between E4 and Doom 2. You're not taking down Hell once and for all in this episode, there's still other games that take place after this one.

 

EDIT 2:

Quote

Thy Flesh is the least loved episode on Doom.

[citation needed]

Edited May 31, 2019 by TheMightyHeracross

[Grain of Salt]

22 minutes ago, eyelid said:

Thy Flesh is the least loved episode on Doom.

 

Highly incorrect.

[banjiepixel]

52 minutes ago, eyelid said:

Sigil's last level was kinda anticlimax, we need epic biblish last battle with hundreads of monsters. I know Romero can do it, so please. Things are still in progress after Sigil. This wasn't end.

 

The last level is actually pretty fun obstacle course to play. Romero also used the limited Doom 1 monster selection very well, sure there were alot of barons but so many times they can be just avoided. I like that Romero created fun maps without trying create big arena fights. Sometimes it is better create something more subtle, especially when mapping for Ultimate Doom.

[Gunstar Green]

I'm having a hard time figuring out if eyelid is being serious or is just a clever parody of what people think Doom is after 2016.

[ketmar]

@Gunstar Green please, don't spoil the fun! of course, he is absolutely serious!

[noisebloom]

i dont liek sigil cuz its different 

[Gaia74]

i love sigil!, is like the original doom, bring me to many memories <3

[NightFright]

I knew there would be people that expected this to be a slaughterwad. Gratefully it's not. It's oldschool with quite some spice if you want it on UV. There are so many challenging community projects out there, you don't need Romero to do the same. Challenge can also be achieved by design. Sure, it's not everybody's thing to face Barons with shotguns or Cybies in tight spaces, but if you survive that, at least it's a bigger accomplishment than BFG-zerging thousands of monsters.

Edited May 31, 2019 by NightFright

[Jon]

Personally I'm very happy this isn't a slaughter map collection. 

[Budoka]

I love slaughtermaps, but:

 

1. Romero has never made one, and I don't think he even knows how to make a quality slaughtermap.

2. In a semi-official episode for the original Doom, they couldn't possibly fit in with the rest of the game.

 

Anyway, I just reached E5M7 and so far it's been a pretty cool ride. The secret level was satisfying gameplay-wise but didn't really stand out. If anything, it's a little less capitvating than the two levels that come before it.

[Varis Alpha]

Sigil's already plenty difficulty as it is on UV, not because it has hundreds of acres filled to the brim with monsters, but clever positioning of tough enemies to suppress you and drain your ammo. i do agree that the final map is a bit anti-climactic, but that's par for the course when it comes to Doom maps really, especially Doom 1, which doesn't even have any unique bosses like the IoS. and besides, it wouldn't fit the tone of this mapset at all to suddenly have 1000+ monsters plonked in to make the finale somehow more "climactic."

[Aquila Chrysaetos]

1 hour ago, eyelid said:

Hellish forces put everything they have against player. E6M7 should have 1000 monsters, no compromises. Hell forces should occupy every square meter with some monster behind every corner

Yo, have I got the wad for you!

[Super Mighty G]

Am I too late to condemn the one guy with the contrarian opinion? People are sure keen on throwing shade even after

 

1 hour ago, eyelid said:

Thy Flesh is the least loved episode on Doom.

 

Oh. 

[amackert]

I played through this twice last night, first continually and second pistol starting each map, both attempts on UV. Overall I enjoyed it both times.

 

The first session took longer as the maps are fairly tricky to learn. Hallways and platforms are tight, not leaving much room for fast dodging many players are used to. This is honestly a nice change of pace and it forced me to change my typical play style, and as I made my way through each map I had to think on my feet as well.

 

Overall the visual design of the maps aren't anything to write home about by modern standards, but they are still well designed and have some nice visual touches that would be familiar to players that have experienced Romero's recent E1M4 and E1M8. If anything Romero managed to create a foreboding and intimidating atmosphere, which I think was the intent.

 

Ammo was certainly tight on the first play--much more so on some maps than others--but on the second play I made the intent to find as many secrets as I could and that helped a lot. Secrets are also cleverly placed and are intuitive to discover (I probably found 90% of them in the episode with some careful analysis of the environments). Pistol starting, E5M1 gave me the most trouble by far as even with secrets ammo is extremely scarce. You will have to punch your way through part of the level. I do recommend playing continually as it makes the progression feel more natural, but pistol starting can definitely be satisfying too.

 

Regarding the music, I found both scores to be excellent. Buckethead's music in particular was far more chilled out than I expected. The initial Map 1 tune gave me the impression it was going to be a shred fest overall (and I really dug the style), but it's actually not and is very chill overall.

 

Overall I think Sigil follows on Episode 4 very well and if you go into it expecting a faithful continuation of Ultimate Doom with an increase in difficulty, then I really don't think you will be disappointed. Personally, I think it may eventually surpass Episode 4 for me due to it being very consistent at what it does--I enjoyed every map in Sigil, whereas Episode 4 has a few duds I can do without.

 

Side note, I do feel the episode should be experienced (at least initially) with traditional settings, i.e., no mouselook or jumping. Enabling them eradicates a lot of the challenge and will likely leave the episode having less of an impact. Just my two-cents on that, anyway.

Edited May 31, 2019 by amackert

[drfrag]

17 hours ago, Linguica said:

 

Later I got a tutti frutti error on E3M4 I think, so not quite perfect.

 

 I'm surprised it doesn't crash, are you sure? I've tried with RUDE (my strong limit removing Choco 2.3 fork) and i get graphics problems here and there. Demos go out of sync same as with Crispy. I wonder what he used to record them. Demos are the same for both the compat and the main wad.

[esselfortium]

1 hour ago, eyelid said:

Now Ultimate Doom's ending is couple of dark corridors where you meet spider and cybie and you don't even need to kill them. No final battle at all, Hellish force not even trying. What on Earth is this really?

It's 2019, hell's overlords have gotten in on the relatable depression memes

[andrewdowell]

I honestly don't get what's so amazing about it. Too much tight spaces and an anti-climatic ending. I also don't really like much of the texture choices.

 

Overall, I'd give it a 6 out of 10. The music was the best part.

 

edit: I also really don't like the Deathmatch maps that much.

Edited May 31, 2019 by andrewdowell

[NightFright]

Did anyone actually get that Sigil ends exactly the opposite way Knee-Deep In The Dead does? You kinda die at the end of ep.1, while in Sigil...

 

you become invulnerable. The circle is complete!

[Rathori]

I asked John what the par times were:

 

 

I really hope it does happen :P Kinda surprised it didn't come with those, considering that John made the par times for the original game.

Edited May 31, 2019 by Rathori

[Lizardcommando]

I've finally managed to play through the entire episode. It's not bad. I do get some of the criticism for the narrow passages and corridors, especially with E5M6 (i think it was with the narrow paths in the white canyon?) It can get very hectic in certain areas, and that was just playing through Hurt Me Plenty. I didn't care much for the last map though. It felt kind of lackluster. Fighting a Spider Mastermind and a Cyberdemon in a dark cramped hallway is not fun. The ending of that map did not feel that satisfying.

 

Having said that though, I'd say it's on par with Episode 4 in terms of difficulty. Does it look as fancy as most modern maps and mods released? No, but it doesn't need to be. It looks pretty nice considering it was only using default Ultimate Doom textures. The music (midi soundtrack) sounds pretty damn nice. I'm playing on Hurt Me Plenty and the difficulty feels fair, despite a few areas being a bit tough. The only thing I didn't really like was the crusher maze in E5M4. I also really hated how not obvious exit switches are. It should have least been a fancy devilish looking switch texture to signify the end of a map, not some plain old baphomet wall texture.

Edited June 1, 2019 by Lizardcommando

[termrork]

just played through it and I would only change 2 things: place more chainguns, either they are always in the secrets or there are none in e5m>4.

teleporters in pits like the long one in e5m7 pretty annoying if you fall down there close to the end.

 

 

apart from that I really liked it although I am not a big fan of doom opposed to doom2 of course

[Robo_Cola]

Decent maps with a good amount of detail and lighting/atmosphere.  Felt like an official E5 addon as it should.

 

It wasn't very hard at all and the maps seemed somewhat short.  Only died a few times and it was from that bullshit crusher room.

 

I'd say E5M5 and E5M7 were the highlights.

Edited May 31, 2019 by STILES

[dugan]

Two questions:

 

1. Which soundfont are we supposed play the MIDI soundtrack with

2. Which mods are everyone playing this with?

 

For 2, I'm thinking of just using high-res sounds, the Minor Sprite Fixing Project, and gzdoom's brightmaps.

Edited May 31, 2019 by dugan

[mattjoes]

Just finished playing Sigil.

 

Spoiler

 

I enjoyed it quite a bit. It was a bit too challenging for my taste in Ultra-Violence (I'm not the greatest Doomer, anyway), so next time I will certainly be playing it on Hurt Me Plenty. But whatever the difficulty, I appreciate how it presents some fairly varied and exciting combat situations, and how it forces you to pay attention and expect the unexpected. While John Romero has only recently returned to Doom mapping, I feel he has come up with something creative and innovative here, while at the same time maintaining a classic Doom feel. I was trying to think of the perfect word to describe what he goes for in his maps, and the word is 'cinematic'. Every map in Sigil, like the two E1 replacement maps he released before, has a cinematic feel to it. It's an spectacle in which the magician pulls trick after trick, only this magician is an evil (or rather, satanic) wizard. In Romero's E1M4b map, I really liked the gimmick of having the walls come down and the map gradually open up. He brings that same approach to these maps. The geography changes frequently: paths open and close depending on where you're supposed to go; monster closets in remote places open just when you're crossing a narrow bridge; walls are lowered, revealing large outdoor areas; progress is interrupted by hidden teleports that take you into battles which require split-second reactions. It's not that other fanmade maps don't aim for this style, but somehow I feel Romero does it more, and better (take this with a moderate grain of salt, as I'm not the most prolific player, though I have played a good share of prominent releases over the years).

 

Even though I got blasted by a rocket, I felt a real sense of exhilaration in Realm of Iblis, when running on top of the walls of a castle housing a Cyberdemon, while trying to reach a switch. Likewise, in Unspeakable Persecution, escaping from another Cyberdemon through a dark maze, and then running from one teleporter to the other while avoiding his rockets, was very exciting. I also liked the concept featured in Paths of Wretchedness, of having to traverse three different paths. Admittedly, the path on the right was a bit tedious (more the first crusher section than the second one, which has clearly designated "safe spaces") but there was something interesting there, and the other two paths were fun, especially the middle one with its sinking floors. The only level I found a bit dull in terms of gameplay is Abaddon's Void. It felt more linear and constrained than the others.

I didn't find myself really short on ammo except on one occasion which required backtracking to go get some shells and rockets. On UV, I managed just fine, as long as I was relatively precise when firing, and paid attention to the secrets, which didn't just come in handy, but actually felt necessary at times.

 

Visually, Sigil was very satisfying. There are some beautiful vistas, like those eerie, glowing red cracks and pentagrams set against black nothingness, that can be seen in one secret area of Baphomet's Demesne; the bridge that leads to the exit room in Paths of Wretchedness; or the aforementioned Cyberdemon maze. I also enjoyed the darkness surrounding the island in Sheol, which gave it a sinister foreboding feel (it reminded me of Inner Sanctum in Doom: The Way Id Did). The cracks in the sky in Abaddon's Void were also pleasing to the eye. Nightmare Underworld gave me a real Ultimate Doom vibe. I found myself thinking of Against Thee Wickedly when looking at that building surrounded by rock. But there are other small touches that make this episode feel unique: the omnipresent evil eyes that one has to shoot, and which become harder to spot as the episode progresses; the Quake-style portals in some areas; the red key door in Unspeakable Persecution, which doesn't open all at once, but one bar at a time; the three colored doors in Paths of Wretchedness; the hole in the ground from which Cacodemons emerge in Nightmare Underworld; and last but not least, the exit portals.

All in all, Sigil is a very good mapset. It's great that one of the creators of Doom has returned to making maps, and especially maps that have something distinctive and fresh to offer.

P.S.: Absolutely fantastic level names. My favorites: Paths of Wretchedness, Unspeakable Persecution, Nightmare Underworld.

 

 

[Deadwing]

The only thing I would want more was less-linear maps, but other than that, everything was really good and surprisingly challenging. Romero knows how to do some really oppresive setups. Loved all the limited movement, smartly placed enemies and dark environments. The levels are also all remarkable too.

 

Jimmy's soundtrack is also amazing as well, map 2 MIDI was my favorite.

Edited May 31, 2019 by Deadwing

[Reisal]

UV is pretty rough and I could not finish (and record) past E5M4 due to my lack of health. God damn, I was looking forward to more to more of this.

 

The music is really nice, however.

A mild technical standpoint, zeroed REJECT lumps?

Edited May 31, 2019 by Glaice

[finkleroy]

I just saw someone stream SIGIL blind and John Romero showed up in chat around E5M7 and stayed past the end and answered questions and chatted. I asked him what was changed/fixed in the new version of the wad, and he said about 50 things were changed/fixed, but he didn't specify what.

[CorianderCastor]

I played through some Sigil deathmatch today. Good stuff in practice, even if almost every map has a bfg. We managed to break the wall to the teleporter to the single player portion of E5M6.

 

Spoiler