Ultimate Doom is deeply flawed beyond E1

[Nancsi]

Is it just me, or UD is really really flawed beyond episode 1?

 

I don't mean leveldesign this time. I don't think the levels look any worse than in D2 (not that duds like E3M2 can qualify as something good).

 

But think about it. All the weapons, particularly the shotty and the chaingun are designed against E1 enemies. It works well, it's fun, techbase levels are always best with E1 enemies only. Those enemies are also a class of their own.

 

But when Cacos, Lost Souls and Barons appear as regulars, the game quickly became awkward. There is a huge void in the enemy variety. You have those low tier cannon fodders... have the sole caco as a mid tier and Barons as a rather big enemy. And then, the two bosses... When I play an UDoom wad, not just the original levels, any other wads too, I always wait for the others to appear. It feels empty. The lack of SSG is also a problem here regular shottie is weak against cacos and barons.

 

Doom 2 fixed the issue and added the mixing mid tier guys with different stengths, also a weak version of Baron as regular. It also added SSG to handle them.

 

With that said, it's actually better to play Episode 1 (which flows very well the way it was designed) and then jump onto D2. While I wait eagerly for Romero's episode, I guess this will be an issue (it wasn't in his E1 style remakes).

[seed]

I think that UD is great up until the very end of Episode 3. Episode 4 deviates a bit too much from the established formula of the previous episodes and its style is kind of all over the place. 

 

That said, yes, the main issue of UD would be the lack of enemy variety. The moment Imps, Pinkies, Cacos, and Barons become frequent enemies it gets a bit monotonous and repetitive. That's the main reason I find myself revisiting Doom 2 more often than UD (except for PSX Doom), it's more exciting and the new enemies prevent it from becoming a bit boring after a while. 

 

19 minutes ago, Nancsi said:

The lack of SSG is also a problem here regular shottie is weak against cacos and barons.

 

That would be a problem. You usually have the Chaingun, RL, Plasma, BFG, etc. to deal with Barons and Cacos much more efficiently. You can't keep on using the pump Shotgun against them like you do in Doom 2. You have different weapons for a reason, don't stick only to one. 

Edited December 20, 2018 by Agent6

[NaturalTvventy]

DOOM > DOOM2. Revs suck, SSG OP. Debate over!

[vdgg]

This is the correct answer, @NaturalTvventy :)

[Vorpal]

I would say it was par for the course during the shareware era, where the paid episodes were just "you like what you see? more of the same in the full product!". It wasn't a copout, it was what people wanted tbh (still want, fuck sake how many of us immediately pre-ordered Sigil?)

[Avoozl]

My favorite to least favorite is E2 E4 E1 E3, I wouldn't consider the game flawed after E1 at all.

Edited December 21, 2018 by Avoozl

[Loud Silence]

I have no complains about Ultimate Doom. Doom II was expansion, that's why it has more content.

[Gez]

Don't forget that enemies and weapons are not all the factors in the equation. You also have various powerups. The existence of berserk and invulnerability in particular should not be forgotten.

[Cacodemon345]

I am not a fan of The Ultimate Doom. E4 tends to suck ass for me. Coherent progression is literally non-existent.

[Tristan]

Doom sucks

[NuMetalManiak]

Doom fans can be so lethargic sometimes.

 

I also like the limited resources when modding in UD.

[Vermil]

The Doom engine was designed around Episode1. Then Episodes 2 and 3 were built around the engine.

Edited December 20, 2018 by Vermil

[Novaseer]

4 hours ago, NaturalTvventy said:

DOOM > DOOM2. Revs suck, SSG OP. Debate over!

SSG is OP? Did you accidentally boot Doom 2016? The SSG absolutely sucks compared to the higher tier weapons. RL, plasma, BFG, heck even the berserk fist is better for raw damage. Restraining the urge to SSG is what got me through Ancient Aliens.

[-TDRR-]

Doom 2 is better. Map design isn't super great but everything else it introduced is awesome.
And it's still better than E2 and E3 (not by much)

[MFG38]

I don't think Ultimate Doom is flawed at all.

[Not Jabba]

I generally like Doom 2 better than Doom 1, and the new content gave the modding community a lot of expanded possibilities. That said, I like Doom 1 plenty, E2 is my favorite episode from it, and the lack of combat variety isn't a thing that ever particularly bothered me. 

 

5 hours ago, Nancsi said:

But when Cacos, Lost Souls and Barons appear as regulars, the game quickly became awkward. There is a huge void in the enemy variety. You have those low tier cannon fodders... have the sole caco as a mid tier and Barons as a rather big enemy. And then, the two bosses... When I play an UDoom wad, not just the original levels, any other wads too, I always wait for the others to appear. It feels empty. The lack of SSG is also a problem here regular shottie is weak against cacos and baron.

 

For a UDoom episode where the rocket launcher and plasma rifle become central to the gameplay to create a feeling of constant fast-paced brawling and the monster set feels perfectly natural, try Return to Hadron E2. This is able to happen because there is no SSG for the player to fall back on.

 

26 minutes ago, Novaseer said:

SSG is OP? Did you accidentally boot Doom 2016? The SSG absolutely sucks compared to the higher tier weapons. RL, plasma, BFG, heck even the berserk fist is better for raw damage. Restraining the urge to SSG is what got me through Ancient Aliens.

 

My feeling when playing Ancient Aliens is that both the new enemies were designed specifically to force the player away from using the SSG all the time, and the fact that this was a deliberate design choice speaks volumes about how much of a primary weapon the SSG is (NaturalTvventy has referred to it as being like a "metronome," iirc). The fact that you can use the SSG almost constantly in everything but the most dense battles is interesting and can be problematic, because theoretically the rocket launcher and plasma rifle are more fun and faster-paced in general.

 

Edited December 20, 2018 by Not Jabba

[Novaseer]

1 minute ago, Not Jabba said:

My feeling when playing Ancient Aliens is that both the new enemies were designed specifically to force the player away from using the SSG all the time, and the fact that this was a deliberate design choice speaks volumes about how much of a primary weapon the SSG is (NaturalTvventy has referred to it as being like a "metronome," iirc). The fact that you can use the SSG almost constantly in everything but the most dense battles is interesting and can be problematic, because theoretically the rocket launcher and plasma rifle are more fun and faster-paced in general.

 

Even during AAliens' E1 (before the new enemies are introduced) I still felt like the gameplay actively discouraged SSG use.

[Not Jabba]

1 minute ago, Novaseer said:

Even during AAliens' E1 (before the new enemies are introduced) I still felt like the gameplay actively discouraged SSG use.

That's fair, but again, I think "actively" is the key word here. To keep players from relying on the SSG, you have to actively discourage it.

[Loud Silence]

2 hours ago, Eris Falling said:

Doom sucks

This comment gone popular? In Doomworld?! Shame on you, guys. :D

[TakenStew22]

Like what Jabba said. I like Doom 2 more, but Doom 1 is still a timeless classic.

[94's the best style]

Doom 1 has soul, Doom 2 has rooms of fodder. Ah, the times when a single cacodemon was worth a closet of its own.

[Not Jabba]

5 minutes ago, 94's the best style said:

Doom 1 has soul, Doom 2 has rooms of fodder. Ah, the times when a single cacodemon was worth a closet of its own.

 

As a great demon rights activist once wrote, "A Cacodemon must have money and a closet of its own if it is to kill Doomguy."

[JBerg]

Thy Flesh Consumed has some really excellent maps.

[Xfing]

To be fair, Quake is much more flawed in terms of pace than Doom is, I think. Only like three or four types of enemies have low hp at all, and the entire remainder take several freaking rockets to down. In Doom you've got the full almost linear progression of enemy toughnesses, that's what makes its monster cast so rewarding to fight.

 

Oh, speaking of Ultimate Doom - UDTWiD has been out for like 3 weeks - check it out if you haven't already. More of the same, but even better. Love that freaking atmosphere of the original 4 episodes more than anything!

Edited December 20, 2018 by Xfing

[NaturalTvventy]

DOOM2 has a bunch of wack boring bullet sponge monsters that hurt too much when they hit you. I put in a bunch of OP weapons and a summon sphere that summons a cyberdemon in my last DOOM2 map just to make the game fun. 

[Deadwing]

SSG is okay, i do prefer much more rockets, though

[TakenStew22]

Why are we arguing over which game is better? Both are great classics.

[SOSU]

26 minutes ago, TakenStew22 said:

Why are we arguing over which game is better? Both are great classics.

Welcome to the internet :D

[whirledtsar]

IMO E2 and E3 greatly improve upon / expand upon the gameplay with more complex / labyrinthine level design, plus the various new monsters. And then E4 makes it even more interesting with its heightened difficulty. E1 is fun and all but it's pretty simplistic and easy even compared to the later episodes.

[DJVCardMaster]

I thought the same, at least on aesthetic terms, the problem is that Sandy Petersen wasn't a good mapper, and he was in charge of almost all the maps in E2 and E3. He made fun maps anyway, and E2 in terms of looks was acceptable, but yes, E3 is a mess.

Apparently people seem to like E2 more than E1 anyways, according to a Poll I made a few days ago

Surprisingly people like Mt. Erebus, which for me, is the most awful map in the game

 

Edited December 20, 2018 by DJVCardMaster