Ultimate Doom is deeply flawed beyond E1

[Poncho1]

Well, since E2 and onwards gives you the Plasma Gun and BFG, you should probably use them more often. Makes the game more fun. 

[Gunstar Green]

5 minutes ago, GarrettChan said:

Revenants and Arch-viles are so meaningful in order to make a lot of players moan, haha.

 

Doom did a lot "dumb" things back then, such as the Nightmare! difficulty, and it seems rarely do people complain about that.

I don't think Nightmare was ever really intended to be taken seriously so there's not much to complain about.

[GarrettChan]

16 minutes ago, Gunstar Green said:

I don't think Nightmare was ever really intended to be taken seriously so there's not much to complain about.

Yes, I get you point. Sometimes, people will complain about that the highest difficulty level is not fair or what not. However, the funny thing is that now people took that seriously and you can see a handle of doomgods beat Nightmare! for the IWADs. Also, I would like to do some NM runs from time to time to have a different feeling or stuff. With many unbeatable maps in exception (eg: slaughtermaps or other kind of long maps), NM is a reasonable existence right now even though it was a joke originally.

[Beginner]

6 hours ago, leodoom85 said:

Do you even berserk bro?

Berserk is the key......

It's surprisingly good as 1-to-100 medkit...

[Uni]

@Steve DI wouldn't know about Eviternity since I haven't played it yet. As for Back to Saturn X, I do find them somewhat boring to look at although not as much as Doom's episode 1 but mainly because of the new resources and the various styles(multiple mappers, multiple styles).

 

But I do think that episode 2 of BTSX has aged better than the previous.

[leodoom85]

1 hour ago, Beginner said:

It's surprisingly good as 1-to-100 medkit...

ikr?

[Steve D]

1 hour ago, Uni said:

@Steve DBut I do think that episode 2 of BTSX has aged better than the previous.

 

Fair enough. I go the opposite way. BTSX E1 is my all-time fave megawad, and it got even better over time as the maps were fortified in gameplay. E2 wasn't my thing so much, though it's very well done. Too much of a Meat Game for my tastes, and lots of rock textures. The cool thing is that whatever style of map or gameplay we like, some mapper somewhere is making them for us.

[Loud Silence]

Everyone who has anything against Ultimate Doom, play through Daikatana on hardest difficulty with sidekicks, without cheats. Let it be challenge. Now i'm playing it in that way because of respect to Quake II engine. "Ultimate Doom is flawed" you say? You saw nothing...

[94's the best style]

Purpose of Doom 2 beastiary is to waste your time, and to act as level design crutches. Archies and Revies are hard no matter the level design, imps and demons require the mapper to think. Arachnotrons and Pain elementals offer unique niches though. 

[Firedust]

BTSX ep 2 is a timeless classic. Ep 1 is great but there is a ton of megawads that are better.

[Steve D]

9 minutes ago, Firedust said:

BTSX ep 2 is a timeless classic. Ep 1 is great but there is a ton of megawads that are better.

 

And so the debate goes on. But how can you possibly beat The Unsinkable Fats Domino? ;)

[Cruduxy Pegg]

14 hours ago, Rimantas said:

Everyone who has anything against Ultimate Doom, play through Daikatana on hardest difficulty with sidekicks, without cheats. Let it be challenge. Now i'm playing it in that way because of respect to Quake II engine. "Ultimate Doom is flawed" you say? You saw nothing...

Daikatana is better off completely ignored when discussing good games and their flaws.

[Loud Silence]

13 minutes ago, Pegg said:

Daikatana is better off completely ignored when discussing good games and their flaws.

Daikatana is good at showing word's "flaw" meaning. Good games like Ultimate Doom are fully playable and enjoyable. If it does not fit someone's taste, it's not necessary to call it flawed. "I don't like it, so it's deeply flawed" LOL

[Cruduxy Pegg]

It is a shitty game. Technically,graphically and design-wise. Unlike Ultimate Doom which is much better designed and developed. There are thousands of good games, especially in the fps genre; That are much better for comparison than a shitty game that gets voted shittiest fps -by critics and players alike- in history all the time.

[Loud Silence]

Barons in Ultimate Doom is not the problem if you keep rockets, some plasma for them. Chainsaw, berserk deals with pinkies, imps. Shotgun, chaingun for zombies, cacodemons, imps. I have played through Ultimate Doom multiple times on UV (100% kills, secrets) and have never ran out of ammo nor had any problems. I didn't like few maps, but it's up to taste.

[Juza]

Episodes 2, 3 and 4 are masterpieces.

If you think Barons and Cacos are bullet-spongy, don't forget the existence of the PR, RL and BFG, all of which deal a lot of damage and can quickly obliterate Barons. You should try using these more often, if "bullet-sponges" are really that much of a problem! They always provide you these powerful weapons before or when you have to face Barons, or at least a Berserk in some of the maps, really.

 

Yes. Most of Quake's enemies were bullet sponges, but Id didn't really have any other option. But every bullet-spongy enemy is veeery dangerous, even when alone.

[Gunstar Green]

Quake is just a different game. They had to deal with smaller levels and a lower enemy count and I think what they worked out works for that respective game. The tough enemies and constant ambushes can get a little tiring but I still love it. It's just a different approach from the way Doom does things.

[Sparktimus]

On 12/21/2018 at 11:26 PM, 94's the best style said:

Purpose of Doom 2 beastiary is to waste your time, and to act as level design crutches. Archies and Revies are hard no matter the level design, imps and demons require the mapper to think. Arachnotrons and Pain elementals offer unique niches though. 

Archies and revs are most certainly not wastes of time and they are certainly not crutches. There are countless pwads and even iwad examples where they're used very well. Plutonia in particular comes to mind. Hell, I don't think any Doom monster is truly a waste of time. It depends on the mapper and the map itself that determines if they're meaningful and engaging.

[Cruduxy Pegg]

7 hours ago, Juza said:

Episodes 2, 3 and 4 are masterpieces.

If you think Barons and Cacos are bullet-spongy, don't forget the existence of the PR, RL and BFG, all of which deal a lot of damage and can quickly obliterate Barons. You should try using these more often, if "bullet-sponges" are really that much of a problem! They always provide you these powerful weapons before or when you have to face Barons, or at least a Berserk in some of the maps, really.

 

Yes. Most of Quake's enemies were bullet sponges, but Id didn't really have any other option. But every bullet-spongy enemy is veeery dangerous, even when alone.

 

No, the entire game is meant to be played using the shotgun, BFG and shotgun exclusively! BFG is only for cyberdemons and rooms full of imps too!

[Sparktimus]

1 minute ago, Pegg said:

 

No, the entire game is meant to be played using the shotgun, BFG and shotgun exclusively! BFG is only for cyberdemons and rooms full of imps too!

Unless you're being facetious here, there isn't, and never was, an objectively correct way to play Doom.
 

[Doomkid]

On 12/22/2018 at 3:26 PM, 94's the best style said:

Purpose of Doom 2 beastiary is to waste your time, and to act as level design crutches. Archies and Revies are hard no matter the level design, imps and demons require the mapper to think. Arachnotrons and Pain elementals offer unique niches though. 

I don’t understand this in various ways. In what way is a Chaingunner a time waster? He is quickly killed, or kills you quickly - there isn’t much time to be wasted. A Hell Knight is literally a Baron that wastes less time. One Revenant is taken down effortlessly with just a chaingun and a handful of bullets in a matter of seconds.

 

Arachnotrons are probably the biggest lumps of meat in the game, they get stuck on everything and are defenceless anywhere that isn’t a wide open field. You named the only Doom 2 monster that actually is arguably a big waste of time! I just find that kind of funny, that’s all.

 

Archies are pretty much always a big threat, how that makes them a “crutch” I’m not sure. A crutch would be something that makes level design easier; placing Archies in a fun and fair way is one of the hardest things for mappers to get right. That’s a strange kind of crutch that actually makes the mapping process harder..

[Poncho1]

17 minutes ago, Doomkid said:

I don’t understand this in various ways. In what way is a Chaingunner a time waster? He is quickly killed, or kills you quickly - there isn’t much time to be wasted. A Hell Knight is literally a Baron that wastes less time. One Revenant is taken down effortlessly with just a chaingun and a handful of bullets in a matter of seconds.

 

Arachnotrons are probably the biggest lumps of meat in the game, they get stuck on everything and are defenceless anywhere that isn’t a wide open field. You named the only Doom 2 monster that actually is arguably a big waste of time! I just find that kind of funny, that’s all.

 

Archies are pretty much always a big threat, how that makes them a “crutch” I’m not sure. A crutch would be something that makes level design easier; placing Archies in a fun and fair way is one of the hardest things for mappers to get right. That’s a strange kind of crutch that actually makes the mapping process harder..

Might I add, Mancubi make for great tough enemies, and are considerably less annoying than Arachnotrons (not as quick, make for better fights and don't take up as much space). 

 

I think we can conclude that any enemy can be good if it's placed correctly... Well, except maybe for Lost Souls. 

Edited December 23, 2018 by Poncho1

[Cruduxy Pegg]

1 hour ago, Sparktimus said:

Unless you're being facetious here, there isn't, and never was, an objectively correct way to play Doom.
 

 

Yes I was. Sadly many players play that way and refuse to touch the RL -unless there is a group of enemies, even worse in doom2 when people refuse to use it at all for single targets because they have the SSG- or plasma rifle at all -"wastes" BFG9K ammo-.

[Loud Silence]

Shotgun is my most used weapon in U Doom, but i use CG, RL, PR when needed too. E2M2 is the only level i don't use weapons at all, berserk is few steps away from start point and Doomguy's boxing skills helps me to clear whole level. If i ever use BFG - only for Cyberdemon or multiple AVs. I don't like that lazy weapon, it makes battles way too simple and easy. I play in UV only.

[leodoom85]

7 hours ago, Poncho1 said:

Well, except maybe for Lost Souls. 

Tell me when you damage yourself with a rocket in yer face thanks to those little suckers...

Every monster has a purpose without exception.