Early and unused DOOM 64 Level Designs

[wolfmcbeard]

1 minute ago, CoTeCiO said:

What do you mean? If you're talking about Doom 64, it can actually use the Controller Pak to save your games.

Wait, it does?
I haven't loaded any games that show the save blocks lately, I was planning on playing Vigilante 8 tonight and I can view save blocks so I'll take a look.

[CoTeCiO]

53 minutes ago, wolfmcbeard said:

Wait, it does?
I haven't loaded any games that show the save blocks lately, I was planning on playing Vigilante 8 tonight and I can view save blocks so I'll take a look.

Actually, Doom 64 can show the save blocks too, hold the start button just as you turn on the console and it should go into a Controller Pak menu.

[Dark Pulse]

19 hours ago, Quasar said:

As far as the Icon of Sin goes I can state there was almost definitely a memory constraint issue there as well - spawning monsters at runtime in the Jag-based ports is a really bad idea because it increases zone fragmentation severely - this is why Nightmare skill level with respawn is also disabled. There's no way that MAP30 from PC would remain stable for very long on the PSX. Also, with the way VRAM budgeting works for monsters, the number of types of monsters it could have spawned would have to be severely cut-down, and a limit placed on the number that could be active at one time would also have had to be added (which requires scanning the mobj queue, which is expensive in terms of processing time). I'm sure if anybody could ever get ahold of Aaron Seeler, he'd back up this reasoning.

I'm curious to see how GEC is handling this then, since they've said that a version of Icon of Sin will be restored to their hack, but that since it needs some special setup, they will handle those maps themselves.

 

Do you think it'd be more feasible on Doom 64 due to its higher amount of RAM and stronger processing power?

Edited January 26, 2019 by Dark Pulse

[Quasar]

On 1/26/2019 at 9:39 AM, Dark Pulse said:

I'm curious to see how GEC is handling this then, since they've said that a version of Icon of Sin will be restored to their hack, but that since it needs some special setup, they will handle those maps themselves.

 

Do you think it'd be more feasible on Doom 64 due to its higher amount of RAM and stronger processing power?

With some of the concessions I mentioned, it should be doable on PSX. Not sure about N64, but, you could probably pull it off there also.

[NightmareMan]

Hello, @Hyde! It's great to see you here. Thank you for being with us and tell your experiences and stories about D64, I could listen them all day.

As nobody has asked this question yet...

Do you remember something like a super secret that was in Map 20 "Breakdown"? When I knew there was a secret that was not yet discovered, I started to search more info and it blew my mind.

[Nevander]

WOW! I can't believe nobody @'d me that Tim was here! It's an honor to see you posting here and answering questions about Doom 64 and PSX Doom, really amazing.

 

Doom 64 is such an incredible game and will always be one of my most cherished games. I still play the original N64 version on occasion.

 

@Hyde I was actually curious if you still have or had any resources from the original pre-release versions of Doom 64. As seen (and mentioned) in this screenshot below:

 

https://doomwiki.org/wiki/Doom_64#/media/File%3ADoom64BetaPyramid.jpg

 

And of course the gun sprite from that magazine screenshot, or any cut levels? I would love to see these unreleased things be finally brought out and used in Doom 64 mods and new levels!

 

Thank you for all you've done for Doom. It means a lot to me and many of us that you are here with us now!

 

P.S. In the Void <3

Edited January 30, 2019 by Nevander

[Dark Pulse]

12 hours ago, NightmareMan said:

Hello, @Hyde! It's great to see you here. Thank you for being with us and tell your experiences and stories about D64, I could listen them all day.

As nobody has asked this question yet...

Do you remember something like a super secret that was in Map 20 "Breakdown"? When I knew there was a secret that was not yet discovered, I started to search more info and it blew my mind.

From what I remember, investigation of the map in the ROM found a bunch of tagged lines and so on, but the secret itself sadly got removed.

 

Now, as to what that actual secret IS, that we don't know, and if they don't remember, we maybe never will.

[Quasar]

@Nevander The pic you meant to link:

[Hyde]

On 1/29/2019 at 2:25 PM, NightmareMan said:

Hello, @Hyde! It's great to see you here. Thank you for being with us and tell your experiences and stories about D64, I could listen them all day.

As nobody has asked this question yet...

Do you remember something like a super secret that was in Map 20 "Breakdown"? When I knew there was a secret that was not yet discovered, I started to search more info and it blew my mind.

 

Appreciated!

 

Yeah, definitely remember the secret. I'm pretty sure I've mentioned it years ago and it's indeed in Breakdown. Seems like the community found most of the hidden triggers once it was mentioned, but the payoff was possibly removed (I honestly don't know how that's possible, unless someone went digging and removed it pre-release). In the room with the final hidden switch on a column, it fired a series of Darts from the distant wall you were facing when the switch was triggered that were setup in a pattern with initials and a heart in between. A love note, at the time, basically. 

[Hyde]

On 1/30/2019 at 1:08 AM, Nevander said:

WOW! I can't believe nobody @'d me that Tim was here! It's an honor to see you posting here and answering questions about Doom 64 and PSX Doom, really amazing.

 

Doom 64 is such an incredible game and will always be one of my most cherished games. I still play the original N64 version on occasion.

 

@Hyde I was actually curious if you still have or had any resources from the original pre-release versions of Doom 64. As seen (and mentioned) in this screenshot below:

 

https://doomwiki.org/wiki/Doom_64#/media/File%3ADoom64BetaPyramid.jpg

 

And of course the gun sprite from that magazine screenshot, or any cut levels? I would love to see these unreleased things be finally brought out and used in Doom 64 mods and new levels!

 

Thank you for all you've done for Doom. It means a lot to me and many of us that you are here with us now!

 

P.S. In the Void <3

 

That was the proto we were tinkering with as the engine was in development, and the level in which we discovered we could 'fake' 3D (mentioned earlier in this thread). I can't recall why it was more Mayan in theme, but I have a feeling, we had to change directions to keep it more inline with Dooms existing lore, or maybe we felt the theme was limiting. I very well could be wrong here but seems most likely. As for having any of those assets - definitely not given we worked on SGIs. The only pre-release stuff was the levels we started on PC and imported into D64.

 

I don't think there were any cut levels. Certainly lots of ideas within levels that got cut, to stay on schedule, but entire levels? I don't think so.

 

I thought In the Void was cool too - different enough visually to break up the level flow. Thanks!

[Devalaous]

10 hours ago, Hyde said:

 

Appreciated!

 

Yeah, definitely remember the secret. I'm pretty sure I've mentioned it years ago and it's indeed in Breakdown. Seems like the community found most of the hidden triggers once it was mentioned, but the payoff was possibly removed (I honestly don't know how that's possible, unless someone went digging and removed it pre-release). In the room with the final hidden switch on a column, it fired a series of Darts from the distant wall you were facing when the switch was triggered that were setup in a pattern with initials and a heart in between. A love note, at the time, basically. 

At long last, the Breakdown supersecret is explained! In various projects, this secret has been the source of much debate and interpretation.

Also, thanks for explaining lots of dev stuff from the PS1 and N64 Dooms, these games were my biggest Doom experiences growing up, and have been big parts of my memories. Its like a childhood hero popping up, in a way :D

[Kaiser]

On 1/31/2019 at 1:53 PM, Hyde said:

 

Appreciated!

 

Yeah, definitely remember the secret. I'm pretty sure I've mentioned it years ago and it's indeed in Breakdown. Seems like the community found most of the hidden triggers once it was mentioned, but the payoff was possibly removed (I honestly don't know how that's possible, unless someone went digging and removed it pre-release). In the room with the final hidden switch on a column, it fired a series of Darts from the distant wall you were facing when the switch was triggered that were setup in a pattern with initials and a heart in between. A love note, at the time, basically. 

It does seem like someone removed it at the last minute. When I decompiled the macro scripts for that level, there's evidence of a sequence that calls the dart spawning action, but there's no trace of actual dart spawners in the level itself. Would of been interesting to actually see it in action, as well as what the steps were suppose to be to activate it.

[kmxexii]

@Hyde I recently played through Doom 64 (awesome btw, thank you Kaiser for EX) and was doing some background research. The DoomWiki and 5 Years of Doom interviews imply that Harry Teasley did some level design for Doom 64 but the Doom Depot interview, which is the basis of  the map author credits found in the Doom Wiki, does not credit him for the design of any individual level. Do you recall what input Harry had into Doom 64 before he left Midway?

Edited February 4, 2019 by kmxexii

[Hyde]

1 hour ago, kmxexii said:

@Hyde I recently played through Doom 64 (awesome btw, thank you Kaiser for EX) and was doing some background research. The DoomWiki and 5 Years of Doom interviews imply that Harry Teasley did some level design for Doom 64 but the Doom Depot interview, which is the basis of  the map author credits found in the Doom Wiki, does not credit him for the design of any individual level. Do you recall what input Harry had into Doom 64 before he left Midway?

 

Vaguely - Harry was more involved on the PSX versions. He likely had done some of the D64 proto work/level ideology and maybe was there for the start of the scripting system discussions? None of the levels that shipped were Harry's though as I think he left before we really started cranking levels. I think most of his work was during the proto phase. Any other specifics I definitely don't recall. Harry was a cool guy - stuck up for us young and industry-naive LD's (I was 21 when D64 shipped and Level Designer was a term still very foreign to the industry)

[CoTeCiO]

On 1/24/2019 at 3:55 PM, Dark Pulse said:

did you guys have just as much trouble telling apart Zombiemen from Shotgun Guys? Whoever's decision that was to make their palettes so similar deserves to be put up on the spinning wheel and have the knife thrower test their luck at their circumcision skills. 

A bit of a shameless plug here, but I once modified the shotgun guy palette to make it more distinguishable from zombiemen. Now we're talking!

 

 

[Dark Pulse]

1 hour ago, CoTeCiO said:

A bit of a shameless plug here, but I once modified the shotgun guy palette to make it more distinguishable from zombiemen. Now we're talking!

 

Even something like that would've done wonders for distinguishing them.

[whatup876]

I have another question and it's about the cover box art of the game.

I heard Doom 64 was meant to have something similar to Doom 1 and 2 which would feature Doomguy in demon hunting action, which even includes the "double" Cyberdemon.

The highest quality version of the image i got was from a site dedicated to hosting Doom related images, so this is the best image resolution for the unused cover i've found.

So the question is: If this art is official and was made for the game, what caused the change from it to the game's final box art being just a pentagram with a demonic face?

 

[Revenant100]

That unused cover art is by Shawn Murphy who worked at Midway at the time. Here's a higher resolution version of his art:

 

He also made a couple other concepts of this same Cyberdemon design:

 

 

[CoTeCiO]

While this looks pretty neat, I really think the final cover reflects the mood of the game a lot better than the unused version.

[Death Egg]

Anything interesting about Doom 64 Absolution you can recall? New weapons or monsters, or game mechanics?

[DustFalcon85]

Hey @Hyde. Do you know who made this squinting face? It creeped me out back when I was a kid. I salute to the person who created it!

 

Edited February 13, 2019 by DustFalcon85

[Koko Ricky]

4 hours ago, DustFalcon85 said:

Hey @Hyde. Do you know who made this squinting face? It creeped me out back when I was a kid. I salute to the person who created it!

 

That really affected me too. I like how the animation pauses, you end up being caught off guard when the face suddenly grimaces and the eyes light up. Great effect.

[snapshot]

lol the eyes.

[Dexiaz]

Dat face reminded to me...about this:

 

[KVELLER]

20 hours ago, DustFalcon85 said:

Hey @Hyde. Do you know who made this squinting face? It creeped me out back when I was a kid. I salute to the person who created it!

 

 

That thing got me when I played Doom 64 for the first time a couple years ago, even though I had long since stopped being a kid. "Oh, a demon face textu -- Wait WHAT THE FUCK?"

[Hyde]

On 2/9/2019 at 7:58 AM, whatup876 said:

I have another question and it's about the cover box art of the game.

I heard Doom 64 was meant to have something similar to Doom 1 and 2 which would feature Doomguy in demon hunting action, which even includes the "double" Cyberdemon.

The highest quality version of the image i got was from a site dedicated to hosting Doom related images, so this is the best image resolution for the unused cover i've found.

So the question is: If this art is official and was made for the game, what caused the change from it to the game's final box art being just a pentagram with a demonic face?

 

 

I probably saw that cover during its production (Shawn worked internally and I remember many covers he did prior). I couldn't say exactly why, but my gut says it wasn't edgy/mature enough by the 'standards' then. Not shocking/iconic enough. Sometimes, you also need to think on a larger scale - posters, banners, mag covers, etc. Would this hold up in those ways? I don't know. Again, totally hypothesizing against what little I've learned (marketing wise) since, but I think CoTeCiO is also on point here too.

[Hyde]

On 2/9/2019 at 1:57 PM, Death Egg said:

Anything interesting about Doom 64 Absolution you can recall? New weapons or monsters, or game mechanics?

 

Just what I've mentioned previously. It was almost a direct sequel and while I'm sure there would have been a new monster, and possibly weapon, neither were designed/started before the game was cut (99% sure of that). No new mechanics I recall. We were mostly making maps autonomously while other things were in the works. It was probably 2ish months into dev when it got cut.

[Hyde]

On 2/13/2019 at 7:54 AM, DustFalcon85 said:

Hey @Hyde. Do you know who made this squinting face? It creeped me out back when I was a kid. I salute to the person who created it!

 

I do not recall exactly but it was either Fransisco or Andy as they did all of the texture work if I recall.

[whatup876]

On 2/9/2019 at 7:40 PM, Revenant100 said:

That unused cover art is by Shawn Murphy who worked at Midway at the time. Here's a higher resolution version of his art:

 

He also made a couple other concepts of this same Cyberdemon design:

 

 

That's awesome.

Not sure if you mind me asking this, but how much more D64 concept art do you have?

Because i think a lot of threads with those images had them hosted on dead sites, so some pics are probably gone.

It'd be nice seeing them coming back and archived safely.

I also think another reason for this cover to be dropped might be because of the unused Cyberdemon monster.

[Dark Pulse]

1 hour ago, whatup876 said:

I also think another reason for this cover to be dropped might be because of the unused Cyberdemon monster.

Errrr, what? Cyberdemons were alive and well in Doom 64. Did you not play MAP25: Cat and Mouse?

 

 

Or MAP24: No Escape, which has three of them on Watch Me Die! difficulty?

 

That said, it definitely doesn't have both arms as Rocket Launchers like in that art, so perhaps that's what you're referring to.

Edited February 19, 2019 by Dark Pulse