Doom - The Way Romero Did - Let's show Romero we support him

[kevansevans]

Okay so bear with me, I'm pretty nervous to be announcing such a thing, especially since I've been elected to lead it.

 

In recent events, our lord and savior, John Romero showed his support for trans rights on a stream hosted by HBomberGuy. This has led to a lot of backlash in a minor portion of the Doom community. For reference, I'm a mod over at /r/Doom, and we had to ban 12 people from the subreddit in one day, and I have no doubts elsewhere in the Doom community similar happened, or at least there was someone expressing sort of bigotry. For the past few days, there has been constant attacks towards Romero over his support, and this is not cool. For the past few days, I've been discussing with other staff members of the Doom community, and we have settled on that we should show our support by making a mod dedicated to Romero.

 

Doom - The Way Romero Did
or
Project Romero

 

We'll throw a vote some time I guess

 

What are we making here? Well as the title implies, we're going to make maps in the style of Romero's map making techniques. What are those core techniques you ask? (From the wiki)

 

 

• Always changing floor height when I wanted to change floor textures
• Using special border textures between different wall segments and doorways
•  Being strict about texture alignment
• Conscious use of contrast everywhere in a level between light and dark areas, cramped and open areas
• Making sure that if a player could see outside that they should be able to somehow get there
• Being strict about designing several secret areas on every level
• Making my levels flow so the player will revisit areas several times so they will better understand the 3D space of the level
• Creating easily recognizable landmarks in several places for easier navigation

 

That is the first general theme of the map design that we want. The second theme of it might seem a bit counter intuitive. John helped give us one of the worlds most influential, if not the most influential, video games in existence. The day Doom was released in 1993, it changed our perspectives on what games could be forever, and I say we return the favor. Doom 2 was not the sequel the game deserved, boiling down to nothing more than a map pack with a handful of additions. I want to provide as close to an experience for Romero as he did for us, those of us who were there in 1993. This project should feel like a natural progression on the series like any other franchise sequel worth their salt. These are the main highlights that we want to focus on:

 

 

• Doom 2 as IWAD
• Map design that is of noticeable higher quality of Doom's map design, with the above listed rules still in focus, and inspired from Romero's existing levels.
• Additional weapons or weapon tweaks that feel like they fix or add on to Doom's weapon design. (IE make the standard shotgun have a tighter spread)
• Additional monsters or monster tweaks that feel like they fix or add in to Doom's Monsters. (IE make the archville more tolerable)
• Gameplay tweaks additions should be tested with the default Doom IWADS
• Additional textures that feel within the spirit of Doom's aesthetic.
• And other stuff if we feel it's a good idea.

 

Who are we looking for? Absolutely anyone who wants to be part of this project to help show their support for Romero and trans rights! Sprites, sounds, textures, mapping, scripting, even just your name! We'll do out best to make sure what you want to add gets put in.

What are the end goals? Ideally this:

 

 

• A three/four episode megawad with 10 levels each. 8 original levels, and 2 secret levels that are remixes of Romero's existing works.
• An experience that, as said before, feels like a natural progression as a sequel, but not over the top per say
• It is highly encouraged that we take advantage of GZDoom and UDMF, but it is allowed to make a Boom compatible map as long as the effort of a well designed level is there

 

Right now the mod focus is on a "we'll see as we go", but as mapping starts getting under way, we'll start reserving map spots and start stringing things together more concretely. Anyone who is interested in the project can join the Discord server here: https://discord.gg/zZT5ymD

 

Some resources for anyone who wants to start early with the maps:

Screenshots of Romeros maps: http://romeroscreenshots.drdteam.org/
List of maps Romero has been credited for: https://doomwiki.org/wiki/John_Romero#Levels_by_Romero

Project resources can be found on this repository: https://github.com/kevansevans/RomeroProject

 

Disclaimers/Warnings

Due to the sensitive nature of this project and what it represents, I must ask that any resources contributed to this project are either straight from official sources (IWADS, ripped from games, etc.), are clearly stated to be of free use, and or have explicit permissions from the original owner and are fully aware of what they are being used for, or you are the original designer. We will ask if there's any doubt to show that the assets fall under those conditions.

[Remilia Scarlet]

Jumping in to help with this with both feet, both hands, and an extra pair of feet I borrowed from someone else.

[JohnnyTheWolf]

Wow, really? I heard Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez showed up on Hbomberguy's stream, but I did not know it had other prestigious guests. I guess I will have to find the time to watch that stream from beginning to end to see what I missed, because that sure is cool! 

 

Anyway, I can see "The Way Romero Did" being a pastiche of his soon-to-be-released SIGIL megawad.

Edited January 26, 2019 by JohnnyTheWolf

[hella knight]

lol

[Mk7_Centipede]

If you dont want a part of this wad you can join in on JCMP2.

/s

[Count651]

Aw yeah this is right up my alley. Really hope this goes all the way through. Might even consider making a map for it if I'm not busy with other projects.

[Cant delete my DW account]

This is not gonna end good

[Jimmy]

I should jump in and just quickly state that if you're here to decry this project's intentions for any reason, or even to add nothing but snark to the proceedings here, consider traipsing off and spending that mental energy elsewhere. We all know Romero is a good guy, and everyone here can attribute to him and the rest of id Software a lot of personal happiness.

 

It doesn't matter what side of the political fence you're on - it's downright deplorable that anyone is receiving serious threats and attacks over a sociopolitical opinion. The online world already has enough bile and nonsense. Don't contribute to it further. Instead, let's contribute to something that demonstrates that the community is deeply fond of Romero and his work, and has always been.

Edited January 26, 2019 by Jimmy
Edited for clarity.

[Suitepee]

I'm guessing that this project will draw on some inspiration from Doom/Doom 2 The Way Id Did then?

Edited January 26, 2019 by Suitepee

[Walter confetti]

I've seen this on zdoom forums and joined the discord, but I didn't read good all the reason behind this project and I didn't know about these transophobic / homophobic attacks against Romero...

Anyway, over personal ideas of random people on internet, looks like a interesting project, I see what can I do if I can do something for this... Good luck to all!

[riderr3]

LOL I immediately remembered this stillborn project.
 

 

[Nancsi]

What do trans rights have to with Doom mapping?

[Andy Johnsen]

4 hours ago, Jimmy said:

I should jump in and just quickly state that if you're here to decry this project's intentions for any reason, or even to add nothing but snark to the proceedings here, consider traipsing off and spending that mental energy elsewhere. We all know Romero is a good guy, and everyone here can attribute to him and the rest of id Software a lot of personal happiness.

If you want to take any kind of political stance with doom mapping (why, oh why...) then at least realize you're opening yourself up for opinions on the matter, and a fair bit of snark. Making a tribute map set to Romero seems like a good idea. Involving politics of any kind, seems like asking for these kind of things. Either be willing to deal with that or keep it about entertainment, I'd advice.

[Alfonzo]

Here are some more Romero-isms, as gleaned during D2TWiD development many moons ago:

• If you're going to borrow any layout ideas, you should stop, take a deep breath, and then ask yourself if you really, really don't want to make a sandbox map (MAP15, MAP20), hub map (MAP17) with intersecting catwalks (MAP26) or a central structure around which most of the map revolves (MAP11, MAP29, E4M6).
• Having said that, you'd better just go ahead and make catwalks.
   

• 11 hours ago, Kevansevans said:

  Being strict about texture alignment

  
  Yes! Strictly reset all textures that aren't doors and switches to 0,0 when your map is finished. If this looks too ugly, replace the offending textures with something that no-one will notice is misaligned, like ZIMMER or METAL :)
   

• Actually, replace about 40% of your map's textures with some sort of METAL* variant when your map is finished anyway.

• Replace one of the cacos in your caco fleet with a pain elemental.

• Demons are second-class citizens. Only leave a pinkie placed in the map if it's put there by accident. I have no idea how that one in Circle of Death got up onto those stairs but unless it was shunned by its invisible compatriots and put in the naughty corner I'm guessing John's finger slipped.

• Did you place a clip? Delete it. Empty bullet boxes onto the map. Romero placed 2 clips in all of Doom 2.

• Well okay, that might be more coincidence, but you should definitely lean more heavily on bulk pick-up items over small ones. That goes for health as well. Don't look at Industrial Zone. Industrial Zone is a weirdo.

• Okay fine, shell pickups x100.

• Did you place a bonus item? Cool. Add another, especially if it means I get blinded picking them all up at once or have to play bumper cars from corner to corner. Pretend that 100% items actually matters to speedrunners. Embrace your inner magpie.

• if you're going to place a barrel, place all the barrels. Remember that one scene in the old tour of id software video where John tries to impress a girl with exploding giblets? Yeah. I'm pretty sure there's a reason he paired revenants with zombiemen in The Living End. John loves giblets.
   

• 11 hours ago, Kevansevans said:

  Being strict about designing several secret areas on every level

  
  Consider unmarking some secret areas with the secret flag, too — especially if it means that the map then has 0 secrets total (MAP29).
   

• Place a multiplayer-only Cyberdemon in the map's most prominent slime pit.

• Because there will be a slime pit. Probably below each one of those catwalks you made.

• Gradient lighting. Gradient lighting on stairs.

• Use SUPPORT3 to transition between liquid sectors of differing height, if not most other things. Afterwards, use SUPPORT3 to decorate your living room.

• Consult Tarnsman for more tips.

11 hours ago, Kevansevans said:

Doom 2 was not the sequel the game deserved, boiling down to nothing more than a map pack with a handful of additions. I want to provide as close to an experience for Romero as he did for us, those of us who were there in 1993.

 

I'm sorry to hear you don't think Doom 2 is a worthy successor! I very much love Doom 2. Hopefully these pointers will be of some use to your project's subscribers, regardless, as Romero re-invented a large part of his design with the new features in the game (which is partly what makes it more than just a map pack with a handful of additions) and it's important to observe if you're looking to further alter the game's core content.

 

It might be worth taking a look at his Quake levels to get a fuller picture of what sort of traits are absolute and then structure some of the tighter guidelines that way.

Edited January 26, 2019 by Alfonzo
addendum

[Jimmy]

1 hour ago, Nancsi said:

What do trans rights have to with Doom mapping?

 

The fact that a number of this community's most prolific users actually identify as trans, including my friend the late and widely-beloved Kate Fox, and it's a cause worth contributing to through any creative means. Every little bit of good will goes a long way.

 

1 hour ago, Andy Johnsen said:

If you want to take any kind of political stance with doom mapping (why, oh why...) then at least realize you're opening yourself up for opinions on the matter, and a fair bit of snark. Making a tribute map set to Romero seems like a good idea. Involving politics of any kind, seems like asking for these kind of things. Either be willing to deal with that or keep it about entertainment, I'd advice.

 

Oh, be assured, I know it's inevitable, because this is the internet and everyone's out for blood these days because no one can leave well enough alone. I just don't think these kinds of non-constructive responses are appropriate for a good-natured project's development thread. Y'know, like they never would be - "political" project or not.

Edited January 26, 2019 by Jimmy

[Test Tickle]

Oooh, maybe I'll do something with this.

[Jaws In Space]

1 hour ago, Alfonzo said:

• Actually, replace about 40% of your map's textures with some sort of METAL* variant when your map is finished anyway.

>:(

[Solarn]

I'm in.

[JohnnyTheWolf]

6 hours ago, Jimmy said:

It doesn't matter what side of the political fence you're on - it's downright deplorable that anyone is receiving serious threats and attacks over a sociopolitical opinion.

 

... Even people who are actively pushing an anti-trans rights agenda? :/

 

While I generally agree with your sentiment here, I do not think we should lose sight of the fact that much of the persecution trans persons have been facing come from the Right, be it politicians pushing for "bathroom bills" or conservative pundits making transphobic "sociopolitical opinions" for a living. Of course, that does not mean that there are no left-wingers and left-leaning transphobes - I am under the impression that the shithead who inspired Hbomberguy to do his stream is left-leaning, although I could be wrong about this -, but it does not change the fact that those who ultimately hold the institutional power to hurt the trans community are predominantly right-wing and they often do so under the veil of respectability. As such, we should not feel sorry that they get attacked for knowingly partaking in the oppression of marginalised people.

 

Basically, the message we should be sending here is that transphobia is unacceptable and that we support Romero for supporting trans rights, not just yet another call to civility that only serves to normalise transphobia as "just a different opinion"...

 

 

Edited January 26, 2019 by JohnnyTheWolf

[Nancsi]

Oh brother, I leave this thread before I turn into an Archvile.

[Jimmy]

9 minutes ago, JohnnyTheWolf said:

 

... Even people who are actively pushing an anti-trans rights agenda? :/

 

No! Don't threaten or attack anybody! Doing so only manufactures more hate and pushes them to be more unshakeable from their problematic worldview.

 

If you're going to argue with them, present some actual points instead of immediately jumping to insults and threats - take them down with precision. And doing what hbomberguy did in organising a stream that gathered the interest of industry specialists, as well as thousands of dollars in funding for a pro-trans charity, is just one of the right ways to do so.

[wintertowns]

13 hours ago, Kevansevans said:

I've been discussing with other staff members of the Doom community, and we have settled on that we should show our support by making a mod dedicated to Romero.

 

Do you do intend to do this as an official Doomworld statement, or are you organizing as indiviual members of the community? I would suspect that some members, no matter their opinion on this, feel uncomfortable with the thought of the community taking an official stance in regards to a question (which I personally think is a non-question, we're all equal), that is being frequently used in all kinds of acceptable and unacceptable ways in the current american, as well as international, political discourse. I have nothing against a political project if it's organized by members, but I think that the official stance of this kind of forum should remain non-political.

 

If there is a problem with transphobia on these forums, there has to be some kind of investigation made, and there has to be a statement with an official stance, but if there's not a problem here, I don't see why Doomworld officially should engage in battles fought elsewhere. State you business as a regular member, and make a project if your mapping ideas are good, and people can rally around a cause on discord or private messaging if they so choose to.

 

Even if we like Romero here, and owe much to him and the other guys from old iD, we're not his personal army, and what he chooses to beleive in political matters must stand for him, and not necessarily the community.

[JohnnyTheWolf]

12 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

 

No! Don't threaten or attack anybody! Doing so only manufactures more hate and pushes them to be more unshakeable from their problematic worldview.

 

If you're going to argue with them, present some actual points instead of immediately jumping to insults and threats - take them down with precision. And doing what hbomberguy did in organising a stream that gathered the interest of industry specialists, as well as thousands of dollars in funding for a pro-trans charity, is just one of the right ways to do so.

Well, I still disagree with you there, and so does Hbomberguy as a matter of fact, as he has been openly mocking and insulting transphobes, including the shithead who unintentionally inspired him to do his stream.

 

However, I understand this thread is primarily about the development of a megawad - which I still think should be more about showing support to the trans community and less about an already much-beloved figure such as John Romero, but whatever - and as such, I will refrain from further derailing it with arguments on how to deal with transphobes.

 

Godspeed!

Edited January 26, 2019 by JohnnyTheWolf

[obake]

I'd like to contribute a map to this. I will study Romero's designing technique.

[⇛Marnetmar⇛]

Make some maps for christ's sake.

 

Jesus fuck what goes through you peoples' heads

[esselfortium]

Since certain folks here have taken issue with something other than the bewildering claim that Doom 2 is a bad sequel, I'll jump in to say something, too.

 

Trans people have done an immeasurable amount for the Doom community. I'm not going to try making a whole list here because I don't want to single people out who might not be comfortable with the attention, but if you've ever used ZDoom (or any of Doom's countless other source ports that have incorporated code or features from it), you can thank Marisa "Randi" Heit, who created ZDoom and contributed to its development for nearly 20 years. I'm also a trans person in the Doom community. There are a lot of us.

 

If "trans people should have equal rights and shouldn't be treated as second-class citizens" is a notion that you consider too political and controversial, if you're wanting to benefit from our contributions while scoffing at the idea of having to give any respect or consideration in return, at the horror of being reminded that we exist at all, then I don't know what to tell you. I'll be generous and assume that maybe you just have some weird, warped imagined idea of what trans people are like. IDK.

 

Back to the project topic itself:

Alfonzo totally nailed it with his above post's Romero-style mapping advice. A lot of Romero's stated rules for mapping were things that he rarely actually followed himself, but you can pick out his design tendencies by studying his actual levels. Alfonzo's list is a really good starting point that covers a lot of the bases!

 

And while I'm already here complaining, I have to say that the project description and guidelines don't really sit right with me. They feel uncomfortably focused on "fixing" a game that you consider faulty, despite the project supposedly being a tribute to one of the core creators of the game you're lamenting. What is "intolerable" about the arch-vile? Does it really benefit the project's goals, or even relate to them at all, to change things like this?

13 hours ago, Kevansevans said:

Doom 2 was not the sequel the game deserved

What is "deserved" here? Is this actually a John Romero tribute project in support of trans rights, or is it just another community project attempt with a different hook to lure contributors in? You're asking for 40 levels here. Maybe I'm being cynical here, but this all feels off to me.

[Linguica]

14 hours ago, Kevansevans said:

I'm a mod over at /r/Doom, and we had to ban 12 people from the subreddit in one day, and I have no doubts elsewhere in the Doom community similar happened, or at least there was someone expressing sort of bigotry.

 

Actually I don't remember any problems on Doomworld after Romero was on the stream. We've been banning bigots for years so such flareups are pretty rare.

 

14 hours ago, Kevansevans said:

For the past few days, I've been discussing with other staff members of the Doom community, and we have settled on that we should show our support by making a mod dedicated to Romero.

 

What does this mean? What staff members? The Doom community has staff members?

[Terrcraft]

the idea of this mapset is a good one but seems to have a little too much ambition for its own good.

 

[wintertowns]

4 minutes ago, esselfortium said:

Trans people have done an immeasurable amount for the Doom community.

 

If you allow me to be a bit polemic, you make it sound like there is a trans-center somewhere that has a Doomworld-section, but I think I get your message. 

 

I feel immesurable respect and awe for the individual contributions people make to this site, and game modding in general, but for me it doesn't need it to be attached to their, race, gender, or political beliefs. I won't like it more or less if it is, it's just more difficult for me to see the actual interesting subject matter. Internet art can be so crystal clear in itself because of relative anonymity. In that respect I think it's different from realworld art, where the social-cultural origin of a work matters, and can be very interesting. 

 

Has there been recent problems in this particular community with transphobia? I can imagine that it has in the past, due to internet lack of accountability. Has it been dealt with, or is it still a problem? I don't claim to be able to understand a transpersons experience, but I love that there can exist communities where our written opinion around a specific topic almost is the only thing that matters, and IRL physical existence is less important. Real world issues exist, but Doomworld is probably somewhere as far from the real world as we get, If we still want to be able to communicate of course.

[Quasar]

1 hour ago, esselfortium said:

Trans people have done an immeasurable amount for the Doom community...

 

If "trans people should have equal rights and shouldn't be treated as second-class citizens" is a notion that you consider too political and controversial, if you're wanting to benefit from our contributions while scoffing at the idea of having to give any respect or consideration in return, at the horror of being reminded that we exist at all, then I don't know what to tell you. I'll be generous and assume that maybe you just have some weird, warped imagined idea of what trans people are like. IDK.

I've been wanting to say basically this for quite a while now but couldn't put it in good words. I keep feeling like there should be an official statement from our sites to the effect, because hatred and bigotry and bullying are not welcome in this community regardless of motivation, and the desire to inflict such things on people is not a valid matter for political discourse in the first place.