Returning map creator - Need to some help

[dlystyr]

Hi,

 

I have returned to playing Doom since about 2004 - 2005, I remember the love I had from mapping and would like to start again. I have 2 questions I am quite stuck on and I know most times its a preference choice but if you have any insight in my decision it would be much appreciated.

 

1) What port? Back in the day I used to map for ZDoom and ZDaemon, I have seen ZDoom is discontinued but I would like to map for a modern client with preference for single player / cooperative, not multiplayer - I think GZDoom fits the criteria but is there anymore ports I should consider which have modern features?

 

2) Map Editor, When I left the community Gherkin/Codeimp had not long released Doom Builder which I enjoyed, but I noticed there is Doom Builder X (not codeimps, a fork). I also notice Slade which looks interested, As I am starting from scratch I would like to go for an editor that has a full feature set. Do you think Slade would work well with me coding for GZDoom?

 

3) Nodebuilder? I always used Zennode before but I think ZDBSP seems to be the best for GL? am I correct in thinking this? would it be a good choice with Slade/GZDoom?

 

Thank you for any reply.

[Kappes Buur]

1. The most versatile game port today is GZDoom.

But try other ports as well, 3DGE, Eternity, etc.

See https://www.doomworld.com/forum/6-source-ports/

 

2. There are only two editors still supported, GZDoom Builder - Bugfix and DoombuilderX

See http://www3.telus.net/kappesbuur/BEGINNING/FirstSteps/FirstSteps.htm

 

3. ZDBSP.

 

Addendum:

As far as Slade3 is concerned, it is the preeminent lump editor.

I have not used it's map editor, so I cannot comment about it, but from various posts I take it that some functions, which GZDBBF has, are missing?

All I can say is, give it a try.

Edited February 6, 2019 by Kappes Buur

[dlystyr]

30 minutes ago, Kappes Buur said:

1. The most versatile game port today is GZDoom.

But try other ports as well, 3DGE, Eternity, etc.

See https://www.doomworld.com/forum/6-source-ports/

 

2. There are only two editors still supported, GZDoom Builder - Bugfix and DoombuilderX

See http://www3.telus.net/kappesbuur/BEGINNING/FirstSteps/FirstSteps.htm

 

3. ZDBSP.

 

Thank you for the quick reply, I think I will stay on GZDoom, it will be nice to develop map again :)

[ketmar]

i'd say that making your map work in prboom is a big advantage. there are alot of people using prboom, and most other source ports can play boom-compatible maps. that is, making your map playable with prboom will increase audience and awereness.

[Kappes Buur]

I did a quick adaptation of Jamie Faith's first map with light variations.

Looking at the comparison between GZDoom and PrBoom+

 

 

I will map for GZDoom any time.

But, everybody will make up their own mind to decide what they like.

 

 

Edited February 6, 2019 by Kappes Buur

[Empyre]

@Kappes Buur Is that the same version of the map in both screenshots?

[ketmar]

as i said, making it work in prboom is a plus. it doesn't mean that it must be designed only for prboom, though. boom is just a least common denominator: something that works in prboom will likely work in all other advanced sourceports, thus giving you a bigger audience. but it is up to you to decide, of course.

[Jamie Faith]

@Kappes Buur

Wow! I love what you've done with that hallway! It never occurred to me to raise parts of the ceiling like that... Could you send me that version so I could take a look?

[Empyre]

When I make a UDMF map, I am not limiting who can play my maps.  GZDoom is free and so is Zandronum.  The players who insist on only playing PRBoom are limiting themselves on what maps they can play.  I am not the one imposing the limitation; they are.   The only caveat are those who only have an antique computer to play Doom on.

 

If I were to map in vanilla, Boom, or even Doom-in-Hexen, I would be limiting myself on what features I have available to use.

 

Back on-topic: wouldn't it be easier to go directly to learning UDMF, rather than learning vanilla, and then having to re-learn mapping to use Boom, and then re-learn again to use UDMF?

[Kappes Buur]

32 minutes ago, Jamie Faith said:

@Kappes Buur

Wow! I love what you've done with that hallway! It never occurred to me to raise parts of the ceiling like that... Could you send me that version so I could take a look?

Certainly.

However, all I did was edit that particular hallway, just to show an example what could be done with light variations. The rest of the map I left untouched.

 

2Jamies First.zip

Edited February 6, 2019 by Kappes Buur

[Kappes Buur]

43 minutes ago, Empyre said:

@Kappes Buur Is that the same version of the map in both screenshots?

Yes, it is the same map.

[Kappes Buur]

30 minutes ago, Empyre said:

Back on-topic: wouldn't it be easier to go directly to learning UDMF, rather than learning vanilla, and then having to re-learn mapping to use Boom, and then re-learn again to use UDMF?

 

How many times have I made that exact same pont in recent posts

(just a rhetorical remark, no need to count and tell me :-))

but for some reason not everyone gets it, proclaiming that going throuigh

the DOOM feature set first is the way to go. Until, of course, simple things

to accomplish in UDMF(ormat) are not possible at all in DOOM  format.

[-TDRR-]

1 hour ago, Empyre said:

The only caveat are those who only have an antique computer to play Doom on.

And this would only really matter if they are still running a Pentium 2 or something like that, as long as you have a Pentium 4 with some decent graphics card (Anything Nvidia will work) you can run Zandronum pretty well, and ZDoom LE too.

[ketmar]

'cmon, most PCs even 10 y.o. can run crysis. there is no reason to map for doom at all: crysis can do much more, looks much better, and all that!

[Juza]

@Kappes Buur uhh, it occurs to me that your prboom+ is like, on the highest gamma level, that's why it looks horrible. Your clearly visible hatred for every format that isn't exclusive to advanced ports is also pretty laughable. Recommending UDMF for beginners is not a good idea at all.

[Bauul]

2 hours ago, Kappes Buur said:

but for some reason not everyone gets it, proclaiming that going throuigh the DOOM feature set first is the way to go.

 

In this particular instance I actually agree with you: as dlystyr is already a relatively seasoned mapper (if rather rusy), he doesn't need to start with the basics, he already has them, so jumping into UDMF (presuming that's what he's interested in, but as a ZDoom mapper that would make sense) does seem sensible.

 

My arguments are for literal brand new mappers who still are finding joy in the simple idea of being able to place an imp in a map editor, and then be able to see and shoot that imp in game.  For those people I still believe it's better to start simple.  If someone has never drawn anything on a PC before and they ask you what can they start with to mess about on, do you suggest MS Paint or Photoshop?  Obviously Paint.  This isn't an academic course, the passion and enjoyment is more important than learning the tools. 

 

But back on topic:

 

@dlystyr Welcome back to Doom land!  Kappes' outline of the source ports and editors is pretty spot on, the only thing I would also add is that we now have a new map format if you're not aware of it: UDMF (Universal Doom Map Format).  Basically a map format written from the ground up for flexibility and additional features.  If you really want to unlock the full power of the latest GZDoom releases, you need to use UDMF format.  

 

Edited February 6, 2019 by Bauul

[Empyre]

@ketmarSector-based editing for Doom, even UDMF, is much easier than those brush-based games.  And, Doom is more fun, too.  You seem to be implying that like Crysis, UDMF isn't Doom.   I think it is.

 

This looks like one of those situations where the only thing we can agree on is that we disagree.  Let's just leave it at that.

[Kappes Buur]

1 hour ago, Juza said:

@Kappes Buur Your clearly visible hatred for every format that isn't exclusive to advanced ports is also pretty laughable.

 

You are trying to ascribe something to me which is not the case at all.

I have no hatred for any port, but wiith the advent of GZDoom, PrBOOM+, et al, have been relegated to be inferior in that they only support an extremely limited featureset, and I include the BOOM format here as well. Hence I am more inclined to use the OpenGL renderer. If that annoys you, so what, it's my preference.

 

If you need to vent your opnion further on this matter, please, leave my name out of it.

 

 

1 hour ago, Juza said:

@Kappes Buur  Recommending UDMF for beginners is not a good idea at all.

 

I made my opinion on the matter quite clear.

Let's leave at that, unless you feel obligated to further comment on this.

Edited February 6, 2019 by Kappes Buur

[dlystyr]

2 hours ago, Bauul said:

 

@dlystyr Welcome back to Doom land!  Kappes' outline of the source ports and editors is pretty spot on, the only thing I would also add is that we now have a new map format if you're not aware of it: UDMF (Universal Doom Map Format).  Basically a map format written from the ground up for flexibility and additional features.  If you really want to unlock the full power of the latest GZDoom releases, you need to use UDMF format.  

 

 

Thank you, I did notice UDMF, previously I had used doom in hexen, but its good to know of UDMF (it was much needed afterall!).

 

Thanks for all the informative replies. you never know, I might be on /newstuff in a few months ;)

[ketmar]

6 hours ago, Empyre said:

This looks like one of those situations where the only thing we can agree on is that we disagree.  Let's just leave it at that.

i agree! ;-)

 

p.s.: disclosure: i have my own sourceport, and it is not [g]zdoom-based. and i want to play new maps too!

Edited February 7, 2019 by ketmar