Hell: Who did it better?

[Egg Boy]

The Ultimate Doom and Doom 2: Hell on Earth both prominently feature Hell (how surprising). There are 3 total episodes of Hell that Id software blessed their IWADs with. But which of these is the strongest, and what values did Id (Mostly Sandy Peterson) ingrain in these maps? In the red corner, we have the classic, Doom Episode 3: Inferno, in the blue corner, Doom 2, and in the... er... other corner, Thy Flesh Consumed (it counts). What are the fundamental differences between each? Who did it better?

 

Bonus: Name your favorite Hell map or episode that wasn't made by Id Software.

[DagothKronk]

E4M1 is the most new and interesting hell map in the classic dooms (i agree that it counts as hell - where else could it be?) e3 leans too hard into the red brick and lava and brimstone aesthetic for my liking. Doom 2 has a more lovecraft feel to it, but nowhere near as heavy as in TFC. I think American McGee is a pretty underrated level designer in general.

[seed]

Doom 2 has a more Lovecraftian vibe to it, but imo, Doom's E3: Inferno is the best hell.

[NiGHTMARE]

Doom 2 has two of my favourite id hell levels, Monster Condo and Spirit World, so I'd have to go with that. I am a big fan of Slough of Despair in Inferno and And Hell Followed in TFC, though.

 

As for a favourite non-id hell episode, Richard Wiles Crusades is one of mine. Another is Chris Lutz's Hellscape.

Edited March 2, 2019 by NiGHTMARE

[Doomkid]

I know it has a city sky, but Gotcha! is one of my favorite Hell maps ever. Spirit World and The Living End are also fun Hell maps. Not to say the Ult Doom Hell maps aren't great as well of course.

[Terminus]

I'd say E4 is more of what I'd imagine when it comes to hell levels.

 

But above all that, @antares031's Struggle takes the cake in everything that comes to Hell in that third episode. :P

Edited March 2, 2019 by Terminus

[MFG38]

I do have to say that I'm more fond of Episode 3's Hell maps than Doom 2's, though the latter maps aren't bad by any means either. I just prefer the aesthetic in Episode 3 - it conveys the nature of Hell more effectively than Doom 2, I think.

Edited March 2, 2019 by MFG38

[ReaperAA]

For me, map 29 "The Living End" of Doom 2 is probably better than any Doom 1 or E4's hell map. But overall I think E3 has best hell representation. Most Doom 2's hell maps don't fell that "hellish". They lack that... that something (I can't put my finger what it is) which E3 of Doom 1 has.

[RightField]

10 minutes ago, ReaperAA said:

For me, map 29 "The Living End" of Doom 2 is probably better than any Doom 1 or E4's hell map. But overall I think E3 has best hell representation. Most Doom 2's hell maps don't fell that "hellish". They lack that... that something (I can't put my finger what it is) which E3 of Doom 1 has.

 

it's called "red"

[vinnie245]

In terms of the iD dooms then Episode 3 of Doom 1 has the best hell levels, overall though ive always preferred the Hell levels from Doom 64, Just the most visually unique/creative along with the soundtrack makes it quite an experience.

[pcorf]

The best hell maps (id software maps)

 

Ultimate Doom

Fortress of Mystery

Hell Keep / Warrens

Slough of Despair

House of Pain

Unholy Cathedral

Mt. Erebus

Gate To Limbo

Hell Beneath

Perfect Hatred

Against Thee Wickedly

 

Doom 2

Gotcha!

Bloodfalls

Monster Condo

The Spirit World (my favorite one)

The Living End

Icon of Sin

[Moustachio]

"But what about NRFTL," cries out Moustachio from his corner.

 

Out of those three, I'd pick E3 as my personal favorite.

Edited March 2, 2019 by The Mysterious Moustachio

[SirJuicyLemon]

Maybe I'm biased as I haven't played too much Doom 2 compared to Doom 1 recently, so I don't recall perfectly the Hell levels on Doom 2.

For what I recall from Episode 3, I liked a lot House of Pain and Limbo.

 

House of Pain is an almost perfect representation of Hell to me. The only thing that lacks (although I'm not sure) are "the tortured souls mixed on a juice" texture, or the spine one. Implementing that, and some other changes to the map, would make a perfect Hell map for me.

(This are the textures I'm talking about)

 

Limbo, even being a big map that may encounter some parts that feel familiar or repetitive, feels like an unique map. It really takes the best from the marble textures and blood floors.

 

I also kinda like Mt. Erebus because it also feels very very unique, mostly because of that weird red and blue texture that I don't have a f*cking idea what's supposed to be but I like it anyway. The only problem with Mt. Erebus is that the map itself feels like a messy salad of buildings in a little map, and the main part of Mt. Erebus feels just flat. If it's supposed to be a mount it should have done with more contour lines for valleys and hills using different heights, etc...

 

Also, Thy Flesh Consumed is supposed to happen in Hell? I thought it was on earth kind of cleaning up the mess of the invasion by killing all the demons left.

Anyways, from Episode 4, I like Perfect Hatred and They Will Repent.

 

Perfect Hatred feels like a good planned and well done simple map. Just that simple. Not sure if I can recall some good details of the aesthetic design of the map but the map design itself it's awesome.

 

They Will Repent is kind of Limbo, an unique building where it takes the best from the marble texture and the blood floor combination. And the design of the map is also really good.

 

As for Doom 2, even having not played them as much as Doom 1, I remember some of the maps with affection but I'm not sure which of those is supposed to happen on Hell.

 

The most fun maps (and probably these were the maps with more focus on being just "fun") are Dead Simple, Tricks and Traps, Barrels O' Fun and Gotcha!

 

Apart from that, the levels that I really like were O of Destruction, The Spirit World, Monster Condo and The Living End.

Also The Chasm and Bloodfalls are kinda good but tedious at same time.

 

TL;DR

Ultimate Doom

E3M4: House of Pain

E3M7: Limbo

(E3M6: Mt. Erebus, kinda)

 

E4M2: Perfect Hatred

E4M5: They Will Repent

 

Doom 2

MAP07: Dead Simple

MAP08: Tricks and Traps

MAP11: The O of Destruction

MAP20: Gotcha!

MAP23: Barrels O' Fun

MAP27: Monster Condo

MAP28: The Spirit World

MAP29: The Living End

(MAP24: The Chasm, kinda)

(MAP25: Bloodfalls, kinda)

 

Again, probably many of them do not happen in Hell but I don't remember, sorry heh.

 

 

Edited March 2, 2019 by SirJuicyLemon

[SirJuicyLemon]

9 minutes ago, The Mysterious Moustachio said:

"But what about NRFTL," cries out Moustachio from his corner.

 

Out of those three, I'd pick E3 as my personal favorite.

I loved No Rest For The Living! But I can't recall sh*t! 

I'm bad at remembering maps :(

[Not Jabba]

I was never really that into the classic fire and brimstone hell or the green marble hell, or the black/red gothic hell that's common in pwads (though that one's a little more interesting to me than red rock and lava).

 

I do really like D1's organic representation of hell with living flesh elements as part of the landscape, as though hell itself might be some kind of living organism. I also love D2's surrealist, haunted, dark-reflection-of-Earth style of hell. It's like when the demons "brought their own reality" to Earth, there was some kind of tradeoff where Earth's reality became a part of hell as well, which also fits with the increased number of cyborg enemies. D2's hell is something that can't really be explained, and I find that interesting.

[Master O]

6 hours ago, Doomkid said:

I know it has a city sky, but Gotcha! is one of my favorite Hell maps ever. Spirit World and The Living End are also fun Hell maps. Not to say the Ult Doom Hell maps aren't great as well of course.

 

Speaking of the Living End, there's a band by that name.

[Lila Feuer]

Doom 1's Inferno is the most intimate we've ever got to see of the classic series's Hell. To break down the concepts of each level, I include my noteworthy and favorite sections and moments:

1. Immediately greeted by a world of flesh and brick, vibrantly red and capped off with a crimson sky. (E3M1)
2. Twisting landscape with plenty of flanking denizens, more monster closets off the bat than previously seen in the Phobos and Deimos settings. (E3M2)
3. Abstract and unusual designs that defy real world logic like water on ceiling, and the semblance of a place that once was human but now subverted and heavily corrupted by being sucked into Hell, worse than anything seen prior in the Deimos installations. (E3M3)
4. Killing fields beyond what we can traverse now are seen in small slits in the walls, most likely more horrific worlds of blood and pain than we ever wanted to know. (E3M4)
5. Bizarre runic symbols adorn the uncaring walls of the otherworldly cathedral. (E3M5)
6. A vast plane of fire and brimstone, buildings that seem to serve no other purpose than to house additional terrors. (E3M6)
7. Hell plays tricks as you find yourself in a familiar place. Deja vu? Or is there something more sinister in waiting? (E3M9)
8. Deep underground where no light can be seen penetrating the depths of this cornerstone of Hell, teleporters arranged in a puzzling fashion, testing your mind as much as the last few denizens Hell can spare to test your might. (E3M7)
9. Hell's coliseum where there's nowhere to hide, and the mastermind behind the invasion plots your doom. (E3M8)

[Kira]

I've been fascinated by Dr.Sleep's marble, metal and wood take when I played PSX Final Doom for the first time, and E4 was more of that abstract "otherworld" that I was looking for, so it gets my vote. Needless to say I've greatly enjoyed when mappers went weird post-Insane_gazebo's abstract worlds that would inspire @Demon of the Well a few creative lore bits, as well as Quake.

 

I'm far from disliking E3's themes and visuals though. Just look at @Lila Feuer's descriptions above. Ain't that cool? Doom's Hell is thankfully always fraught with more than just the "classic" depiction of Hell. It's also about logic breaking down, flesh merging with machines and corruption. Lovecraft, H.R. Giger and medieval painters making a baby.

 

As for non-id map, well I guess Dr.Sleep counts already? For a classic vibe yet strangely compelling to me, some of Speed of Doom E3 qualifies, then it goes to Ribbiks ultimately. Plutonia has its moments too: its curvy and brutalist bunkers always spoke to me (story-wise it's not all set in Hell but like, it's very consistent visually so everything counts to me).

 

Since I mentioned Quake let's digress and mention Coagula (metal and void) and Contract Revoked (infinite libraries in lovecraftian dimensions) styles. And now that I'm out there special mention to the Warp in Warhammer 40K. Some of what the artists put there would fit right at home with id software's brand of biomechanical Hell.

 

It's time to shut up before this post is about everything but Doom.

[Mk7_Centipede]

Mt. Erebus, right?

 

Is this a trick question?

[NiGHTMARE]

How could I forget Malcolm Sailor's Chord series? Chord G and Chord 3 in particular are fantastic hell levels.

 

Several of the hell maps from the improved Doom 1 & 2 project I'm working on are inspired by these, especially Monster Condo:

 

Edited March 3, 2019 by NiGHTMARE

[TheNoob_Gamer]

Doom 2's hell is obviously the best. But I still like Erik Alm's take on Hell.

And about my favourite hell map...

E4M1, obviously. Sure, the entire map is rough for 1st time players, but once you get the hang of it, it becomes fun-ish. At least for me.

On 3/2/2019 at 10:10 PM, ReaperAA said:

For me, map 29 "The Living End" of Doom 2 is probably better than any Doom 1 or E4's hell map. But overall I think E3 has best hell representation. Most Doom 2's hell maps don't fell that "hellish". They lack that... that something (I can't put my finger what it is) which E3 of Doom 1 has.

I think that's because Doom 2's hell felt like it was crafted by humans, not by the monsters themself. These maps also give you an industrial and waste-ish feel. Which is interesting.

[Egg Boy]

On 3/2/2019 at 10:10 AM, ReaperAA said:

For me, map 29 "The Living End" of Doom 2 is probably better than any Doom 1 or E4's hell map. But overall I think E3 has best hell representation. Most Doom 2's hell maps don't fell that "hellish". They lack that... that something (I can't put my finger what it is) which E3 of Doom 1 has.

In doom 2 hell is definitely more strange and abstract, but that's what I like about it! It feels more like a strange void that reflects human architecture but in a twisted way.

[Walter confetti]

Isn't episode 4 supposed to be set on "Earth"? The city you see at the end of episode 3...

[seed]

9 minutes ago, Walter confetti said:

Isn't episode 4 supposed to be set on "Earth"? The city you see at the end of episode 3...

 

Good question.

 

I also think it's set somewhere on Earth as opposed to Hell due to the theme and atmosphere of the levels. The orange sky doesn't look hellish to me at all either.

[Rednov]

E3 concept is the archetypal one: swamp, cathedral, torture house, volcano, limbo... (at least it tries to imitate them). Doom 2 is an (too) abstract performance with lovecraftian influence. For me, E4 is a E3-D2 mix, more able to explote hell theme in the Doom engine, especially for e4m1, e4m2 and e4m6.

[SirJuicyLemon]

1 hour ago, Rednov said:

E3 concept is the archetypal one: swamp, cathedral, torture house, volcano, limbo... (at least it tries to imitate them). Doom 2 is an (too) abstract performance with lovecraftian influence. For me, E4 is a E3-D2 mix, more able to explote hell theme in the Doom engine, especially for e4m1, e4m2 and e4m6.

I haven't read Lovecraft although I've heard that Sandy Petersen (not sure if any other of the developers) loved Lovecraft and I guess he is the main responsible for that kind of Lovecraftian aesthetic in Doom and even Quake. (Don't get me wrong, I'm just assuming with the info I know; if I'm wrong, please correct me).

 

But anyways, now that you have mentioned Lovecraftian influence, can you tell me what elements from Doom II's concept of Hell are influenced by Lovecraft?

I've been thinking about reading Lovecraft recently so I'm kinda interested on the topic...

 

[Rednov]

6 minutes ago, SirJuicyLemon said:

I haven't read Lovecraft although I've heard that Sandy Petersen (not sure if any other of the developers) loved Lovecraft and I guess he is the main responsible for that kind of Lovecraftian aesthetic in Doom and even Quake. (Don't get me wrong, I'm just assuming with the info I know; if I'm wrong, please correct me).

 

But anyways, now that you have mentioned Lovecraftian influence, can you tell me what elements from Doom II's concept of Hell are influenced by Lovecraft?

I've been thinking about reading Lovecraft recently so I'm kinda interested on the topic...

 

 

I think the best example for explain that is m27 "monster condo": an abstract, dark map, with "village" elements like windows, books, and some disturbing things like that green-marble square (maybe a reference of Cthlhu mythos' dimensionless?) and the hall of blood and impaled corpses. However, I would say you that the pure lovecraftian influence is in Petersen's Quake E4, where you can see everything I have said in a more varied and enhanced way; while we could say Doom 2 hell levels are more (too many!) abstracts than lovecraftians.

[Lila Feuer]

Doom II's Hell while more subtle is actually kinda creepy now when I think about it. It reminds me of Painkiller's often earthy locations. It looks like a place that was possibly once teeming with life. But everyone's gone and it's now just a shell. This husk resembles a place on Earth, yet everything's wrong.

[SirJuicyLemon]

1 hour ago, Rednov said:

 

I think the best example for explain that is m27 "monster condo": an abstract, dark map, with "village" elements like windows, books, and some disturbing things like that green-marble square (maybe a reference of Cthlhu mythos' dimensionless?) and the hall of blood and impaled corpses. However, I would say you that the pure lovecraftian influence is in Petersen's Quake E4, where you can see everything I have said in a more varied and enhanced way; while we could say Doom 2 hell levels are more (too many!) abstracts than lovecraftians.

Oh, I see. Yeah, Monster Condo is quite a good example then. For some reason I've always liked the aspect of that level, kind of mysterious combination for me.

I also played Quake quite recently and loved the aesthetic of most of the levels and the atmosphere they could bring.

[insertwackynamehere]

I don’t even picture Doom 2 as having hell, E3 wins for me. E4 is also cool but I also am not sure I picture it as hell although I don’t know what it is.