TNT 2: Devilution (Final beta released)

[Bucket]

They aren't, which was my point. Holding everything to the standard of a style everyone interprets differently is pointless. Sorry if you took it the wrong way.

[BohdanZPM]

On 4/19/2022 at 3:16 AM, GarrettChan said:

 

With all being said, there's no point trying to sort everything in a "making sense" way.

 

But the authors do name it TNT 2 for some reason, so they're thinking of it as a sequel, like it or not :)

[GarrettChan]

49 minutes ago, BohdanZPM said:

But the authors do name it TNT 2 for some reason, so they're thinking of it as a sequel, like it or not :)

 

It's just strange that you said TNT:R is supposed to be sequel and TNT:D shouldn't have 2 in the title because it's released later than TNT:R.

 

The world is complicated. It's not like the first released thing is supposed to be the first in development etc. Therefore, my point is that, you shouldn't try to figure out why something is like it when there's seemingly no real reason, or a lot of reason that it can't be explained in an essay, which means, it's what it is.

 

[Uncle 80]

Regardiing MAP07 - Not really a bug report, as the map works as intended in complevel 2 (prboom), but I was playing on complevel 9 by accident, which will raise those walkways activated by killing the Arachnotrons too high - to the full height of the ashwall texture, to be exact.

[NightFright]

It's a popular thing, isn't it? Was mentioning it just the other day with MAP07 in Jenesis. I don't think it depends on complevel settings. Jenesis was meant for cl9 and I played it with that. It still bugged out.

Edited April 22, 2022 by NightFright

[ViolentBeetle]

I assume that's because some versions count AASHITTY and some don't and default AASHITTY is 64 units tall. Cause for much confusion.

(Haven't made it to MAP07, so can't comment, but had similar problem with tag 667.

[Uncle 80]

1 hour ago, NightFright said:

It's a popular thing, isn't it? Was mentioning it just the other day with MAP07 in Jenesis. I don't think it depends on complevel settings. Jenesis was meant for cl9 and I played it with that. It still bugged out.

 

Ah yes, I saw that thread. To clarify, I killed the Arachnotrons one by one to verify it wasn't the good old tag 667 double activation in effect. This is indeed a case of differences between complevels, but I couldn't find exactly how Boom's tag 667 works differently from vanilla, the wiki merely states something along the lines of "levels may not work as intended".

 

EDIT 1: Heh, reading the wiki again it does actually specify the difference between vanilla and boom's execution of this effect.

 

1 hour ago, ViolentBeetle said:

I assume that's because some versions count AASHITTY and some don't and default AASHITTY is 64 units tall. Cause for much confusion.

(Haven't made it to MAP07, so can't comment, but had similar problem with tag 667.

 

Just had to check the map in DB to see what textures were used to control the target height, and that didn't make me any wiser. All the right sidedefs use an unmodified Ashwall4, and the left sidedefs use none, which I thought would mean the sectors would rise 128 units even in vanilla. Strange.

 

EDIT 2: damn, you're right! Seems vanilla does indeed treat an empty field in either sidedef's lower texture as Aashitty - thus raising the floor to the correct height in this case. So perhaps this map could be made "complevel 9 compatible" by setting a 64-unit tall texture on all the empty lower texture fields.

Edited April 22, 2022 by Uncle 80

[TMD]

On 4/18/2022 at 5:44 PM, Tycitron said:

Y'know this makes me wonder, how does one gauge how "TNT-like" something is? for me some of the Levels in Devilution like Map02 feels very TNT compared to say Map23, but i have no clue why.

I did layouts for both 02 and 23 and I'll at least give my perspective on how both were TNT influenced, at least from an authors perspective.

Grime and Punishment (made in about a week in early 2014) was mainly influenced by map01 and map02 of TNT, which I think folks are more associative with "TNT" as enjoyable memorable layouts, while still grabbing for the quirky realism from TNT e3.

Pulverizer (done on and off over maybe six months in 2016) is an Evilution Episode 2 styled setpiece map with Episode 3 sensibilities.  It was done as a replacement for my original map24 (I think its in Convilution or TNT4ever or something and I apologize for me ten years ago) after I want to say the third coup.  But Steel Works and ESPECIALLY Mill were the main inspiration, as was Administration Center for the scope.  And the Sector Forklift is VERY "TNT" thank you very much.

But heres where it gets tricky.   Both maps lost a lot of their blatant aesthetic in reworks for visual purposes.  My maps kinetically flow like a modern level when I made them, but I designed them to visually look like 1996, because gratuitous attention to visuals is for Homeowners Associations and Weeaboos (apologies to Hayao Miyazaki, but your fanbase sucks and anime truly was a mistake). However, as this project grew in prestige, an emphasis on modern visuals (which were, to their immense credit, beautifully done by Xaser(02) and Tarnsman(23)) may have hidden away the TNT feel from the maps, especially Pulverizer.  But the spirit was in there, somewhere.  I suppose somebody looking from the outside may not see it but the developers kinda get it.

I REALLY hope the collective TNT2 development gets an analysis or deep dive some day.  It has got some stories.

Edited April 27, 2022 by TMD

[GarrettChan]

8 minutes ago, TMD said:

Both maps lost a lot of their blatant aesthetic in reworks for visual purposes.  My maps kinetically flow like a modern level when I made them, but I designed them to visually look like 1996, because gratuitous attention to visuals is for Homeowners Associations and Weeaboos (apologies to Hayao Miyazaki, but your fanbase sucks and anime truly was a mistake). However, as this project grew in prestige, an emphasis on modern visuals (which were, to their immense credit, beautifully done by Xaser(02) and Tarnsman(23)) may have hidden away the TNT feel from the maps, especially Pulverizer.  But the spirit was in there, somewhere.  I suppose somebody looking from the outside may not see it but the developers kinda get it.

 

Hey, thanks for the story behind it. I played quite a lot of Map23 while the internal testing because it has some weird gameplay experiences. The time I joined the testing team, Map23 contains a lot of Chainsaw gameplay, which is unique, but I can't say it's interesting with quite a bit of mid tier monsters in it. Later it has more ammo around, so the Chainsaw is not necessarily needed, and it flows better IMO.

[TMD]

31 minutes ago, GarrettChan said:

 

Hey, thanks for the story behind it. I played quite a lot of Map23 while the internal testing because it has some weird gameplay experiences. The time I joined the testing team, Map23 contains a lot of Chainsaw gameplay, which is unique, but I can't say it's interesting with quite a bit of mid tier monsters in it. Later it has more ammo around, so the Chainsaw is not necessarily needed, and it flows better IMO.

Its not so much chainsaw centric as it is that you now have to burn through stockpiled ammo from earlier maps if you are doing a single segment run.
Or you are pistol starting and I want the map to remain a frenzy until the player progresses enough to have ammo to get footholds.  Or you can use a chainsaw if you REALLY want a foothold early.

That's at least how I went about it at first.  I cant attest to how much Tarnsman or other minor editors moved item placement.  I still think the final result is enjoyable, and that's what we are here for, right?

[GarrettChan]

2 hours ago, TMD said:

Its not so much chainsaw centric as it is that you now have to burn through stockpiled ammo from earlier maps if you are doing a single segment run.
Or you are pistol starting and I want the map to remain a frenzy until the player progresses enough to have ammo to get footholds.  Or you can use a chainsaw if you REALLY want a foothold early.

That's at least how I went about it at first.  I cant attest to how much Tarnsman or other minor editors moved item placement.  I still think the final result is enjoyable, and that's what we are here for, right?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bvy14HZUVd4

 

In case you're interested, this is how it looks like in 2019 Nov. Maybe I can hear a bit more about the history of the map in case you don't mind? I'm really interested in it :)

[ReaperAA]

Speaking of aesthetics, I really like how most of the maps look. They look modern, but also still have a bit of that TNT-touch to them (like playing Map23 did remind me a bit of Mill, before TMD mentioned it)

 

However, I will say that Valkiriforce's maps could definitely use some aesthetic touch ups (especially the interior areas like the starting cave area of Map17 or that small building/area with the SSG in Map07). They are not "bad looking" per se, but definitely look a bit... odd when compared to super polished visuals of stuff like Map14, 15, 18 or 20.

 

Also I think Map17 can do with some reducing in shotgun/bullet ammo (especially in the 2nd half of the map). Even with pistol start, I was swimming in shotgun and bullet ammo by the end of the map. This wouldn't really make the map harder, but would definitely improve resource balance for continuous play.

Edited April 28, 2022 by ReaperAA

[valkiriforce]

I continue my HNTR (easy) playthrough:

 

MAP07: I might take at least one mancubus out and maybe replace the pain elemental with a cacodemon on HNTR.

MAP08: I was getting chewed to bits with all the chaingunners - I would definitely tone it down for the easier setting. Also, the chaingunners on the ledges near the yellow key area should probably have block monster lines, as I was able to push them off the platforms with chaingun shots.

MAP09: I honestly feel the cyberdemon was a bit too much on HNTR - I would replace it with something else for a casual playthrough. Maybe a couple less pain elementals as well.

MAP10: This one had an even worse cyberdemon, as it's literally just left of the player as you exit a teleporter platform area in sector 444. This one felt like a lite-slaughtermap, so it's kind of hard to say just what should be toned down and where, but I definitely would give something like the invulnerability much sooner given how hostile that area is with the cyberdemon. The map honestly felt like an ultra-violence experience playing it on HNTR. I also found that baron/hell knight hallway in sector 159 pretty tight for a casual playthrough, so I'd take at least some barons out of there on easy or replace them with easier monsters.

MAP11: Just a few small changes: I would make the steps leading out of the water in the eastern area have a different rock texture to make it easier to find your way out. I definitely think the chaingunner in sector 126 should be removed, as it's much too malicious upon climbing up those steps - not a very good decision on my part. I would also remove a handful of imps in the starting open area and a few hitscan enemies in the eastern water cave area as well. I think most of it wasn't bad difficulty-wise, although quite a huge shift from the previous map's difficulty.

[Infernale]

yeah, it's pretty fun, and hard too! But I do like this wad. I think I like it better then the first one.

[ReaperAA]

7 hours ago, valkiriforce said:

MAP09: I honestly feel the cyberdemon was a bit too much on HNTR - I would replace it with something else for a casual playthrough. Maybe a couple less pain elementals as well.

 

Upon a 2nd playthrough, I agree about removing the cyberdemon. I would even remove that cyberdemon from UV as well, but for different reasons. That cyberdemon doesn't add much to the map if you know the map. It can be easily defeated from behind the red key door if you get the secret plasma gun. He is only threatening for like a couple seconds when you grab the yellow key and escape from teleporter (and even there, it is possible to grab the yellow key without having the cyberdemon teleported there, as I did in the attached demo file)

 

I think a couple of arch-viles (or something else) would probably be better there.

 

Also I forgot if I mentioned this in earlier comments, but not only is the torch secret very obtuse (I had to search for it in slade) but also seems to not reliably trigger and I sometimes had to punch/press on the wall behind the torch multiple times to open the secret. My suggestion would be to add a hidden switch near the torch or behind the crates.

 

Demo (UV-max): TNT2_M09.zip

Edited May 7, 2022 by ReaperAA

[elic]

Aren’t the recurring cyberdemon encounters like the main theme of the map though? At least that’s the impression I got when I played it.

 

FWIW I never found the plasma secret and therefore never really had the ammo to kill the cyberdemon, so it was pretty threatening for the map’s entire duration, including a great exit rush to try and avoid it’s rockets at the end

Edited May 7, 2022 by Processingcontrol

[ReaperAA]

4 minutes ago, Processingcontrol said:

Aren’t the recurring cyberdemon encounters like the main theme of the map though? At least that’s the impression I got when I played it.

 

Perhaps? Don't know. In any case, that cyberdemon is nothing but a big ol'softie who is only there to waste some time and ammo. The only time he is even a threat at all is when we go to grab the blue key or yellow key. In case of Blue key, you would have to really unlucky to get hit and in yellow key area, you can skip the linedef that teleports the cyber. And even if the cyberdemon does teleport, you can still quickly escape through the teleport.

 

And also just now I realised that it should even be possible to kill the cyberdemon at the blue key area, provided the plasma gun is obtained (though I haven't tried it yet)

 

Overall I feel that map is better off without him.

[Marcaek]

TNT2 has been updated to Beta 2. Feedback has been greatly appreciated so far and work continues on identifying and fixing issues.

Edited May 9, 2022 by Marcaek

[baja blast rd.]

Beta 2 FAQ
 

Spoiler

 

Does it have map26 yet? 

No.

 

 

[Tycitron]

I really enjoy the small improvements already, but the one i think thing i liked better in the first beta was the map01 spawn location, i like how it was in the same spot as the ending pic in Evilution, like it happens directly after the last one ended. 

Edited May 15, 2022 by Tycitron

[ReaperAA]

Is there a changelog between Beta 1 and Beta 2. Would be easy for me to compare the differences

Edited May 10, 2022 by ReaperAA

[floatRand]

Uh, let me scrounge up some details

Spoiler

Overall implemented some gameplay changes on low difficulty. Only mentioning cases per-map where it is more significant.
There might be other changes, but all mentioned maps were updated in new release.

• Map01 (Obituary): Changed starting position, fixed sound propagation, staircase not resetting, multiplayer fix as well as updated midi to stop it from crashing in original DOS executable. 
• Map07 (Campground): fixed tag 666/667 jamming and some tutti frutti. 
• map08 (Hydrogenics): Some visual fixes, added some tech pillars, fixed lift issue and floating imp.
• Map09 (Heterodoxical Hindrance): Removed cyberdemon on easy difficulty.
• Map12 (Ion Flux): Some visual fixes. Unspecified fixes. 
• Map20 (Infernal Carrier): Some cyberdemon teleport fixes.
• Map22 (Solitude): Fixed some automap lines, update
• Map23 (Pulverizer): Fixed monster teleporting preventing cyber from teleporting, removed some floating rockets. 
• Map28 (Lethe's Falls): Updated midi since it is shared with Map01.
• Map29 (Nexus of the Damned): Fixed graphical glitch.
• Map30 (The New Technology): Visual fixes, automap fixes, Z_malloc fix, some minor gameplay changes. Updated text to be bit more clear regarding ending timer. 
• Map31 (Caesar): Multitude of minor changes, mostly visual fixes and some gameplay fixes (such as red key not lowering or normal exit going to map32)
• Map32 (Null Set): Some major adjustments to monster and item placement. Some geometry changes. Fixed stuck mancubus on easier difficulties. 

 

Edited May 10, 2022 by floatRand

[Saducimus]

Got to map 10 and it's been a lot of fun... save for map6. There doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to the layout.

Perhaps if it were just a little easier to traverse it wouldn't be such a chore. Overall, i like the wad a lot so far.

[Bucket]

Do you know what was wrong with MAP01's MIDI that made Vanilla crash?

 

I did a quick run-through listening to the music and there are still a few duplicates. We're also running into the same old MIDI controller problem (I can link you to a long explanation but tl;dr some of the pitch bends sound absolutely nuts). I'd like permission to edit D_DM2INT so I can insert controller resets. It won't change the music at all; as far as I can tell that track doesn't use any pitch bending. At the same time I'm going to un-edit "Till Next Time" because it doesn't make a very good text screen track as it is.

[Tarnsman]

Duplicate tracks are intentional.

[_delete my account_]

Will it be compatible with any DOS port (Boom, Legacy, MBF)?

[OpenRift]

17 minutes ago, Angel Of Nemesis said:

Will it be compatible with any DOS port (Boom, Legacy, MBF)?

Yeah, it's vanilla compatible, so it should work with those.

[Faceman2000]

On 5/10/2022 at 4:24 PM, Saducimus said:

save for map6. There doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to the layout.

I just beat Map06 and I think it’s my favorite so far. The general weirdness and focus on exploration and atmosphere reminds me of the run of maps from 18 to 20 in the original that was my favorite section.

[Tycitron]

Y'know after beating this a 3rd time and going around in the files of the wad, i am very curious about one thing. although spoiler-y for map30. 

 

Spoiler

What was originally going to happen at the end of map30? in one of the text files it mentions a "virus ending" that went unused, im just curious what that ending was supposed to be, (unless its going to be used for TNT Convilution/Forever, but i have no clue what the story in that one is going to be) I find the Moonguy ending unique. albeit a bit silly, but im a sucker for unused content in games.

 

 

 

 

(also who the heck are Kahuna and Shaman? they are plastered over alot of places, are they like a reference to something else are they unique to TNT2?)

 

[lupinx-Kassman]

Really appreciate the feedback so far everyone! Its been very useful. We've been addressing issues as they are brought up.

And I'm happy people seem to be enjoying MAP30 so far! After spending several lifetimes on it its nice to finally watch folks experience it for the first time.

 

I provided a spoiler synopsis of 30's plot below for those that are that curious. As well as a few plot-related fun tidbits. I really recommend you play the map first though before reading any of it:

 

Spoiler

 

Synopsis:

    An unsettling presence has made itself known to the cosmos. A prodigious lifeform that the UAC speculates is tied to the ongoing hellspawn threat. Due to heavy personnel loss during the previous wars; the UAC signs a contract with TNT to send their subdivision of humanity's brightest to covertly research the entity. TNT constructs the syringe facilities to infiltrate the planet's biology and study its functions without alerting the creature.

    Their research uncovers two horrifying truths: the colossal organism was responsible for creating the icons of sin that our hero has encountered at the end of so many journeys, and the cataclysmic threat the entity poses only grows over time as it continually improves itself. About once every millennium the planet evolves into a more imposing form. The next cycle soon approaches.

    Armed with this knowledge TNT constructs Bio Society: a scientific colony within the planet's anatomy whose sole purpose is to develop and maintain the Devilution Device. This instrument is capable of altering the path of the planet's evolution to suit TNT's self-serving purposes. However, despite warnings within the team, they make a critical mistake.

    The bioplanet's senses were already dulled due to a century-long slumber. When it finally awakens the cautionary measures taken to hide the colony's presence prove to be lacking. The planet makes short work of the human inhabitants within its body.

    Our hero arrives shortly afterward, and by following clues left behind is able to use the Devilution Device for a more altruistic outcome. That is jumping the planet's evolution into an Earth-like rendition of himself.

Aand now for some MAP30 plot tidbits:
-I understand that the map's plot may feel a bit estranged from the rest of the megawad. That's because it *was* disjointed from TNT2 for a long time. I didn't know what TNT2's plot was at the time I was developing the map so I decided on my own theme and story. It wasn't until near the end of its development that I started trying to link it to TNT2's plot. Thankfully the only real alteration that required was to change the demon planet to be Io itself as opposed to another of hell's ancient denizens.

-SHAMAN/KAHUNA/GN are reoccurring characters I created as part of an ongoing easter egg breadcrumb trail that links many of the maps I've made/am working on together. If you look hard enough anyway. SHAMAN is the central plot element of the maps I made for Community Chest 4. I don't feel the maps themselves have aged super well but I'm still keeping the character around. KAHUNA is foreshadowing for another one of my things. Prof. GN is an enigmatic fella that shows up in various forms in my maps. Usually as a gift-giver.

-Amusingly I never actually gave the bioplanet a name. When Alfonzo wrote the endgame text he referred to it as FINAL DOOM. Technically this was the name I was giving to the new IoS the bioplanet was creating (which can be found referenced in a secret area). However I liked his interpretation so I decided to leave it. And hey! Now you can say the bioplanet is FINAL DOOM SR. and the egg is FINAL DOOM JR.

-I had come up with two endings that were difficult to choose between. The first was about destroying the new IoS while it was still an
egg being developed in the demonplanet, and the second was the devilution ending that I ended up pursuing. However you can still find a reference to the first ending in the secret area with the IoS monitors. Its the FINAL DOOM monitor that shows the new IoS as an egg.

-Xaser had also suggested an ending when I mentioned that I was having a hard time coming up with one. His idea was for doomguy to turn himself into a virus that would sicken and kill the demon world. I didn't end up going with this ending, but it still made me laugh so I included an easter egg that references it in a secret BFG room accessible near the end of the map. The animated monitor in that room is all that exists of that ending.

-I made a mistake regarding lifespans in the monitor graphics within the secret area that details some of the IoSes the demon planet created. If you consider Doom2 to take place first and then other megawads to follow-suit chronologically then the lifespans don't make sense. I later however learned that TNT2's plot would have time travel in it, so I decided to leave it alone. After all it could just be the way events played out in this timeline eh?

-There are also some references to wads that weren't my own but that I was just a fan of. The IoS room is the obvious one. With the exception of the FINAL DOOM monitor, the names of the IoSes in that room are all named after the final bosses from other megawads. The "Margie" ship you escape on is also a reference to Darkening 2's infamous single-line throwaway plot. I make the same reference in my old Nebula 95 maps (and in fact this ship is also in those maps.)

-Not MAP30 related, but unlike MAP30 I didn't really have an elaborate plot in mind for MAP20 (The Infernal Carrier) when I submitted what I had circa 2013. It was just my attempt to create the hellship mentioned in TNT's original plot. The ending areas and time travel elements alluded to in 20 were devised by the contributors that finished the map. Since they came up with the story elements for 20 I'll let them describe it in more detail if they like.

 

 

On 4/14/2022 at 2:19 AM, ReaperAA said:

Just completed the wad and I have to say I had a great time. Map30 in particular was very... surreal (that's the best word I could think of) and I really liked it. Much better that having yet another IoS map. Probably my 3rd favorite map after map20 and map15.

With that said, I did discover 2 minor issues in the map. First is this area shown in the screenshot (in SW renderer)

 

Same area in HW renderer

This area is very very dark. On software renderer, you can see the enemies (even if barely) so its not a problem there, but on hardware renderer you can't see enemies at all. I would suggest increasing the light level in this area so that those who prefer playing with HW renderer (whether due to performance reasons or otherwise) don't have to switch renderer for this.

 

The second (minor) issue is the "2 minutes to Devilution". I feel like the message should be made a bit more clear that you need to escape quickly. Since I wasn't aware of it, I was just taking my time and admiring the scenery of the ending areas until I suddenly got voodoo'ed. It took me a while to figure out what was happening because initially, I didn't notice the "2 mins to Devilution" message and was distracted by the 2 bovines. Only did I notice that on my 2nd visit to the area.

 

I did however try to make the ending a bit more obvious with text. I may also do something to keep the cyberdemons in check a little longer so the player has more time to read the message.

 

Spoiler

I would have liked to have made the ending a more spectacular escape sequence that made the danger a bit more obvious through lightning flashes and alarms a la Super Metroid. Unfortunately the map is stretched very thin as far as what choco-doom can handle. Even simple changes threaten to wreck it haha

 

6 hours ago, Tycitron said:

Y'know after beating this a 3rd time and going around in the files of the wad, i am very curious about one thing. although spoiler-y for map30. 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

What was originally going to happen at the end of map30? in one of the text files it mentions a "virus ending" that went unused, im just curious what that ending was supposed to be, (unless its going to be used for TNT Convilution/Forever, but i have no clue what the story in that one is going to be) I find the Moonguy ending unique. albeit a bit silly, but im a sucker for unused content in games.

 

 

 

 

(also who the heck are Kahuna and Shaman? they are plastered over alot of places, are they like a reference to something else are they unique to TNT2?)

 

 

Gave some plot info above if you're deathly curious.

 

Edited May 14, 2022 by lupinx-Kassman