WRATH: Aeon of Ruin (a new game from 3D Realms)

[Rudolph]

Damnit, just as I thought I had understood the difference between the two! :P

 

I guess there is some sort of a Ship of Theseus argument to be made here...

[Major Arlene]

16 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

Damnit, just as I thought I had understood the difference between the two! :P

 

I guess there is some sort of a Ship of Theseus argument to be made here...

Hence why we categorized Total Chaos that way ;p

 

IMO- a standalone game does not use ANY ASSETS of another game. It simply uses the engine code to build on, but doesn't use "replacer" language, i.e. DEHACKED or weapon mods using DECORATE (although the case can be made that as long as "replaces" isn't used in the language then it's probably something standalone). There's plenty of GZDoom games doing this (Project Absentia, Darkadia, Stellar Valkyrie, Vomitorium, Shrine & Shrine II, Brutal Fate etc.) I'd consider a TC something like Batman DOOM, the Aliens TC, etc.

TL;DR/clarification people write their own code for their own assets in a standalone. TCs use code such as "TCPistol replaces DoomPistol" to "convert" the original assets to something new, but doesn't fully replace OG coding.

Edited August 24, 2021 by Major Arlene
clarification

[Redneckerz]

3 hours ago, Rudolph said:

I am not sure I follow. So it stops being a total conversion if it becomes standalone? :o

It was already answered, but yes. Its a standalone when it looks for its own data.

 

A standalone TC does the same thing, but the assets it brings are a replacement for the original assets (FreeDoom)

Then you also have standalone DLC/Expansion packs. The same  core assets as the original, but new levels, enemies and a separate executable, distinguishing it from the main game.

[[McD] James]

edit: nevermind, I misread.

Edited August 24, 2021 by [McD]James

[Murdoch]

7 hours ago, Rudolph said:

So, a "stand-alone total conversion"? Now, I am confused again. :P

 

It's an odd one. It's a replacement iwad so you don't need the original iwad. It replaces the data 1 to 1. So by strict definition I think you could call it a standalone game. But since it alters no actual mechanics it plays more like a TC.

[Noiser]

On 8/24/2021 at 10:35 AM, Major Arlene said:

Hence why we categorized Total Chaos that way ;p

 

IMO- a standalone game does not use ANY ASSETS of another game. It simply uses the engine code to build on, but doesn't use "replacer" language, i.e. DEHACKED or weapon mods using DECORATE (although the case can be made that as long as "replaces" isn't used in the language then it's probably something standalone). There's plenty of GZDoom games doing this (Project Absentia, Darkadia, Stellar Valkyrie, Vomitorium, Shrine & Shrine II, Brutal Fate etc.) I'd consider a TC something like Batman DOOM, the Aliens TC, etc.

TL;DR/clarification people write their own code for their own assets in a standalone. TCs use code such as "TCPistol replaces DoomPistol" to "convert" the original assets to something new, but doesn't fully replace OG coding.

Not really, this definition is totally arbitrary. Doesn't matter if it's on GZDoom or with Dehacked - as long you don't rely on commercial IWADs, you can call your game stand-alone if you want. Generally "stand-alones" are prone to be commercial (or not) and TCs tend to need the Doom IWAD and is more intended as part of the modding community rather than it's own thing.
 

Also, "Total Conversion" is a misnomer - Batman Doom and Aliens TC uses a lot of Doom assets but are still considered TCs. REKKR on the other can be considered a full stand-alone game (since it doesn't rely on the Doom IWAD anymore).

Edited August 26, 2021 by Noiser

[kristus]

The distinction should really be between mod and game. Does the project work more as an expansion to the original game but requiring the original game to run. It's a mod.

 

Does it run on it's own without any of the IWADS holding it up? It's a game.

 

But a mod is ofc also a game, it's just not a stand alone game.

[boris]

At yesterday's Realms Deep the release date for Wrath was announced: 27th of February 2024 (unless they postpone it again, of course):

 

 

[Mr Masker]

2 hours ago, boris said:

At yesterday's Realms Deep the release date for Wrath was announced: 27th of February 2024 (unless they postpone it again, of course):

 

Wait this game still exists? I thought it died or something...

Edited October 1, 2023 by Mr Masker

[mrthejoshmon]

I ain't believing that release date till Febuary.

[boris]

5 hours ago, Mr Masker said:

Wait this game still exists? I thought it died or something...

 

It does, and it's still looking great. Their communication has been pretty terrible most of the time, but 2 years ago they at least started to post bi-weekly updates (which were still very sparse in the beginning), you can read them all here: https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/1000410. They stopped those now (they did announce that in the last bi-weekly update), so I guess there might be radio silence for the next 5 months.

[Caffeine Freak]

I finally played the early access of Wrath sometime in the last year or two. Thoroughly enjoyed the detailed, multi-route, 90's level design on the Quake engine, with the Hexen-type puzzles and environments and aesthetics reminiscent of Heretic II. Hulshult's ambient soundtrack was great as usual. I'm fucking psyched about this.

[Ferk]

That's good news.

I wonder if they still plan to release with the coop and multiplayer modes too. The trailer didn't showcase that.

[boris]

1 hour ago, Ferk said:

I wonder if they still plan to release with the coop and multiplayer modes too.

 

Coop was scrapped over 2 years ago. Can't find the source in the updates, but it's been confirmed on the 3DR Discord multiple times by 3DR people. They say that MP will still come, whatever that means, considering coop is also MP... I guess they just mean DM.

[Kyle07]

Nice to hear it has a release date. Never wanted to buy it in Early Access. Don't ask me why, because Iron Fury I did buy during the Early Access. But still I don't like the feeling to buy something what maybe will never come out.

[Major Arlene]

7 minutes ago, Kyle07 said:

Nice to hear it has a release date. Never wanted to buy it in Early Access. Don't ask me why, because Iron Fury I did buy during the Early Access. But still I don't like the feeling to buy something what maybe will never come out.

it's unfortunately a bit cyclical, sometimes EAs are to make sure the game *can* come out either for funding, to gauge interest or get feedback, etc. but then people don't want to buy it because it's not complete

Wrath in particular has been a bit hard up on the dev process but they did their best to communicate in the last year or so to show progress. it's nice to see them finally have it all together.

[boris]

Believe it or not, the game was actually released today.

[cybdmn]

28 minutes ago, boris said:

Believe it or not, the game was actually released today.

 

What's even more unbelievable is that the game is released on GOG the same day it is released on Steam.

 

Have downloaded it, will play tomorrow, while waiting for my big box copy.

[Spie812]

Man, I've been waiting for this since the first post. The early access version managed to tap into exactly what I wanted to see from a modern retro shooter. I'm thrilled to see it finally leave development hell.

[Caffeine Freak]

I've played the first 10 minutes or so of the release version today, past the tutorial level and into the first level of the hub. Pretty solid stuff. Handles and feels great, like I remember. Atmosphere is solid. Going around breaking stuff is still highly addictive. This is a truly impressive accomplishment for the Quake engine. Excited to play more. I agree with @Spie812, in that I'm glad it finally emerged from development hell.

[cybdmn]

Seems that the source code isn't available at Github anymore.

 

https://github.com/KillPixelGames

 

Does that mean they plan to release a more recent version of the code, now that the full game is released?

[Individualised]

They legally have to, unless they paid for a licence to the Quake engine.

[cybdmn]

Sure, but licensing the original Quake engine alone does not make it legal to make the game closed source, they have to actually use this code, instead of the Darkplaces code which is GPL 2.0. I'm pretty sure that is a vast amount of work, creating something like DP based on the old Quake code.

[Redneckerz]

6 hours ago, Individualised said:

They legally have to, unless they paid for a licence to the Quake engine.

Im also reminded that a license has to be paid to LadyHavoc/Darkplaces if they plan on publishing it on consoles.

 

This was alas atleast the case with the initial Nexuiz console release.

 

The PC source code should remain available though.

 

EDIT: Source is now here:

https://github.com/Official3DRealms/wrath-darkplaces

https://github.com/Official3DRealms/wrath-qc

Edited February 28 by Redneckerz

[D4NUK1]

Played the game after all those years on EA.

i'm very glady they changed some aspects of the gameplay desing, mostly the nail chaingun (having the rigth click do the same type of shoots but more focused was boring, and the unbalanced Super Shotgun rigth click of the original made stuff trivial. I still like the soul theather mechanics and it's good it's only 1 now, to force players to use instead of saving all unto the end of the levels. This game always gave me a aspect of Darks Souls so this make it more in par-

 

Still not played all the levels in but gonna leave a good review-

[cybdmn]

7 hours ago, D4NUK1 said:

 I still like the soul theather mechanics and it's good it's only 1 now, to force players to use instead of saving all unto the end of the levels. This game always gave me a aspect of Darks Souls so this make it more in par-

 

You know that there is an option for unlimited saves? So in fact nobody is forced to use the soul tether saving system. 

[Astar]

Oh, good to know. 

I remember when game was kinda... meh. 

 

I'll be glad to give it another chance

[D4NUK1]

20 hours ago, cybdmn said:

 

You know that there is an option for unlimited saves? So in fact nobody is forced to use the soul tether saving system. 

That's also very good, but i expected the option being there when you create the profile, but anyways, helps both partys of the inmersive players and the inmersive players that need to do stuff every 5 minute.

[mrthejoshmon]

So, I have just recently completed Wrath and I haven't had propper internet (still don't), so I haven't seen any of the discourse (if there is any?) or reception the game has received.

 

So as a quick question how is the general reception? Is there much discussion about the game?

 

Anyway my thoughts:

 

It's actually quite shit.

 

Let me go into more detail

Spoiler

Episode 1 was pretty fun, just like I remember the Early Access demo, however some of the levels found me starving for even basic ammunition. I did enjoy the open areas of the first few levels however I felt as though there was a decent variety to encounters, there was good space to work with in combat and the encounters were quite interesting.

 

Everything I just said immediately vanishes in E2. We didn't have an EA demo for Episode 2 onwards and I'ma be blunt chief we could've done with that for feedback (one of the major points behind EA games) because it's very bad.

 

There is an enemy called the Wretch and I swear to god they should rename the game to Wretch Aeon of Ruin because that fucker gets used at least 60 times a map. Jesus Christ every time I entered a room it would always place like 6 of the fuckers on balconies, ledges, fucking behind me... It is such a boring and annoying enemy, not difficult just irritating chaff (the fact he explodes on death or sprays projectiles all over if gibbed just compounds this).

 

There was exactly 1 map passed E1 that didn't overuse this enemy and that's because it had literally none of them (Flesh Pits from E3, if I recall correctly).

 

Ammo just vanishes for like half the guns in E2 onwards, I have a permanently fully loaded shotgun and bile launcher but nothing else, this isn't helped by enemies dropping ludicrously low ammo (the Invader enemy drops like 4 pistol shots but it takes about 5 to kill them so what's that about, the Opressor drops 5 ammo which is utterly worthless, the Heretic drops like 10 but takes 40+ to put down...). It just became shotgun and bile: the movie: the game, it blew ass.

 

The items were ridiculous, most of them straight deleted encounters outright so they went unused so I could actually try and play the game, then the game was terrible anyway.

 

E2 and E3 maps have a nasty habit of being compact labyrinths that just link back on themselves for literally no reason. I was excited for Crystal Dunes (I think that was the name) as it was shown to be a massive dessert, some Serious Sam shit, and then it just said fuck you and dumped me in a cave/temple that kept leading back to the start for literally no fucking reason (open a gate and activate a lift for what you think is progress just for it to take you back to the start, literally why).

 

The maps also just kinda lowkey suck, that one map in E3 with 2 instakill traps can suck a dick.

 

Also, found an oversight (maybe) that let me charge the mace to 50 uses by picking up maces in the 5 levels without expending the souls (didn't check if intentional) and it let me obliterate the final boss and all his goons almost immediately.

 

Also the "story" is, there, I guess. The big twist at the end was super lame, out of left field but also not unexpected tbh. I could see that dodgy fucker being dodgy but like, bro gained nothing and just made his own demise easier.

 

I could go on but fuck it, nah, ain't worth my time no more.

 

3/10, lame as shit and I wanted it to end.

 

[hybridial]

I played through episode 1, and overall I think that part of the game is alright, but based on reading various criticisms of the game including from @mrthejoshmon just now and Civvie 11's video from the other day as well as what time I've spent trying to play episode 2, it's clear to me what went wrong; and I would directly compare it to Quake: Arcane Dimensions in several key ways.

 

Like AD, Wrath's maps mostly have different individual designers. As such both feel like showcases. The issue Wrath has is it seems to create a campaign out of showcase levels. This is where it went badly wrong because as Civvie brought up in his video, they had to try to balance every map for every potential difficulty level and order you play them in and taking into account resources carry over the whole time. This was just a bad call, and the original designer of Wrath talked about this in a comment he made on Civvie's video where he admits his ideas just didn't really pan out. And to be honest this is my criticism of episode 1; which mostly is balanced and feels complete... but it makes me rather play Quake or Quake AD because those are just better. Episode 2 and 3 is what happened when they didn't even have time to polish this flawed approach. 

 

AD works great with a similar idea of a set of big showcase levels because they are all individual, every one is considered a fresh start and they don't really try to tie it all into a campaign as such. This just fits much better with the map design on show in AD, but it did not work for Wrath because of the differences. 

 

 

Edited March 20 by hybridial