The DWIronman League dies to: Base Ganymede

[Grain of Salt]

46 minutes ago, kraflab said:

Streaming would mean nothing unless there's a hand camera, fyi. Anyone can just as easily stream a pre-recorded run.

 

Not really. With most streams it's safe to say the gameplay isn't pre-recorded just because there's some degree of interaction with the chat, even if just pausing momentarily to answer things. You don't necessarily need to go all the way to "I need a stream of his hands on the keyboard or it could be all fake".

[leodoom85]

With all that being said, I really hope that this demo format doesn't change completely to a stream exclusive session because of this specific, particular situation. Some folks don't have the specs to do it, yet, they want to post their demos and, I personally enjoy doing those demos for fun and also, to polish my skills even further...

[seed]

6 minutes ago, leodoom85 said:

With all that being said, I really hope that this demo format doesn't change completely to a stream exclusive session because of this specific, particular situation. Some folks don't have the specs to do it, yet, they want to post their demos and, I personally enjoy doing those demos for fun and also, to polish my skills even further...

 

This please.

 

All the worse if we'd be forced to have a camera on the keyboard or whatever, I'm not going to do that.

[Urthar]

Had a quick go, category 1: DWIM_BG_Urthar.zip

[Pegleg]

I agree with leodoom and seed. I enjoy participating in DWIL, but I won't (for a number of reasons) if DWIL becomes a stream-only competition. I agree that integrity in competitions is important, but there has to be a limit, especially for a competition where the only reward is essentially a pat on the back from Alfonzo at the end of the year.

 

Way back in July, 2016, in the inaugural edition of DWIL, the statement was made "not everyone is comfortable with streaming; demos will be accepted." I think that this statement still holds. While there are clearly people that stream (Britbowlers and others) as part of the DWIL, I wonder how requiring streaming would impact participation? The effect on the number of participants might be negligible, but I think it more likely that a number of people would choose to not participate in this competition, especially if more draconian streaming requirements were introduced.

 

 

[Liberation]

I haven't taken part in the Ironman stuff for a while due to other commitments (and being lazy), however do feel the need to air my view on this.

 

I don't know how anything competitive can carry on using the demo format. There is nothing stopping anyone from bringing any IM run or speed run in the archives into disrepute. The format is open to abuse and of course TAS is an issue as well.

 

 

[GoneAway]

4 hours ago, Grain of Salt said:

 

Not really. With most streams it's safe to say the gameplay isn't pre-recorded just because there's some degree of interaction with the chat, even if just pausing momentarily to answer things. You don't necessarily need to go all the way to "I need a stream of his hands on the keyboard or it could be all fake".

For someone that is cheating I don't think interaction with the chat is any kind of evidence. This has been done before in other games - streaming pre-recorded runs and faking it live (including personal reactions and interaction with the chat).

 

However as archi mentioned on the discord, you could ask the streamer to do a 180 or something to confirm its live, which would be definitive.

[Nine Inch Heels]

8 minutes ago, Liberation said:

The format is open to abuse

So is streaming, because nothing is stopping people from using "playback". Putting the format of demos in question solves nothing and says nothing.
 

 

9 minutes ago, Liberation said:

TAS is an issue as well

It is only an issue if used such that it fools the viewer, and it's also a vastly different thing when opened in a demo editor... Main reason people have been caught cheating is because we had the demos at the time.

[Liberation]

2 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

Putting the format of demos in question solves nothing and says nothing.

 

Considering we have had 2 incidents in recent memory of demos being questioned, but no streams as of yet, I beg to differ.

 

I'll concede on the TAS point, fair enough.

[Benjogami]

29 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

It is only an issue if used such that it fools the viewer, and it's also a vastly different thing when opened in a demo editor... Main reason people have been caught cheating is because we had the demos at the time.

 

22 minutes ago, Liberation said:

I'll concede on the TAS point, fair enough.

I think the TAS-detection capabilities are being overblown here. Re-recording can result in conclusive anomalies if you inspect the inputs in an editor, but if you're careful and only join the demo when there aren't any inputs happening, for example, it's completely undetectable.

[DeletedUser]

@ZeroMaster010

 

You humour me greatly with your arrogance and contempt, a flood of accusations born from the poison of envy and smite of disrespect. I feel both disappointment and flattery these thoughts would originate from another player who has demonstrated one of a kind talent and has accomplished the impossible, yet is apparently immune from judgement owing to their reputation, do not think your words hold more credibility just because of who you are, being more well known and what you have accomplished in breaking world records and setting ones never previously accomplished, such as with TNT and Plutonia Nightmare. With that being said I will divulge my thoughts on the serious accusations you have set forth.

 

I won't address the individual gameplay scenarios you've highlighted, as the foundation of your argument arises from jealously, this is clear when you contrast my success with your failure, being deluded into thinking you should have surpassed these trials yet cannot absolutely comprehend how someone else can claim victory on a consistent basis, instead I will address my playing ability. You know nothing about who I am or my history with this game, I am exceptionally talented not only at Doom, but other oldschool FPS along with videogames in general. I make speedruns and partake in Ironman out of passion for the game, it is a personal challenge in testing my playing ability to overcome arduous odds, I play for fun, it's about me vs the game and I hold no strong competitive urge or desire to be known as the best, reputation and status are not important to me but having fun is essential.

 

Are you serious when you can't believe someone can beat an Ironman consistently? It's just playing the game without saving or loading, do you not have a fundamental understanding of the core gameplay and how to the play game correctly? Am I the only one who can play aggressively, with an intuitive and innate ability to bend the game to their will and not panic when in a dire situation, but with tactical genius aware of my surroundings and dexterous reflexes can act in the heat of battle and overcome arduous odds? When you highlight cases of RNG, I honestly don't think about it that deeply, I'm confident in what I'm doing, I'll make a risky move and hold strong with faith. I laugh at your baseless accusations of slowdown in reference to Stardate, I'm sure other skilled players such as Mrzzul and Nevanos could playthrough Stardate casually withour prior practice or saving and get just as far. Also bear in mind that I have died in several Ironmans before, do you honestly think their was demo manipulation there?

 

You also demonstrate your ignorance very clearly when you admit you haven't watched my Ironman demos in full, and by watching I do mean actually studying them and assessing each scenario, bearing in mind my experience and ability at Doom which is extradonary, not skipping to a random moment and making up fabrications based on your own failures thinking oh it's impossible, their is no way any player could accomplish that. I do make mistakes, sometimes crucial ones, this is also reflected if you studied my speedruns which are far from perfect and have flaws such as missing shots, awkward movement and poor dodging, however a key skill I have is not panicing when low on health or when the circumstance is dire. Well guess what, I'm one of a kind, no one can play the game like me, every talented player and speedrunner has their own strengths and weaknesses that make them stand out.

 

I am deluded when you suggest someone must have prior knowledge to stand a chance of victory at Ironman. Well look at Demon of the Well, he's not a speedrunner but is known for making FDAs both blind and familiar, he has an exceptional ability at conquering maps on his first attempt, the most prominent example I can think of is rdwpa's MuMe.wad. Does that mean he cheats? Certainly not, he's a talented player who obviously has a high level of playing ability. You also have j4rio and 0xfooba who have accomplished amazing demos that haven't been set before, with the former tysons that should be impossible and the latter UV-Maxes on some the hardest maps devised and speedrun movies of Sunlust. So why would you think my speedruns are cheated, when their are fellow speedrunners who have demonstrated extraordinary playing ability, do not stream and have surpassed my demos? As I certainly have never accussed anyone else of cheating, but respect their accomplishment and admire their tenacity at conquering very hard maps and goals.

 

I have not shown jealously or malice towards fellow speedrunners who have surpassed my demos but silently congratulate and admire their accomplishment, in some cases publicly such as when Ancalagon went back and re-ran Combat Shock in response to when I beat his old runs. I do not look at speedrunning with a competitive eye, thinking I must have the record and surpass my competitor, instead my view is a cooperative one, it's us speedrunners against the game, building on one another's ideas and talent when a new record is set, complementing each other's unique strengths and weaknesses.

 

My question would be why are you accusing and targetting me specifically? I can see from the depths of your arrogance, you believe with absolute certainty you are correct and I must be a cheater with any form of rebuttal being null and void. Well let me state clearly I have nothing to gain, why would I cheat at Ironman when I have pubically stated previously I do not care about winning or if a fellow player surpasses me, this is just fun to me. For speedruns, what would be the purpose in cheating as it's a personal challenge to me, I want to demonstrate to myself I've got the skill and talent to conquer very hard maps, it's about me against the game and I don't feel jealously at a fellow speedrunner who has beaten my record. I make speedruns out of passion and love for the game and not for admiration or self flattery, as long as Andy accepts the demo for DSDA that's all I care about.

 

I am not going to stream as I do not care for an audience and am not influenced by the accusations of an envious stranger. I only streamed briefly for a short time in the past out of curiosity, but it does not interest me nor do I feel passion for it. I haven't watched Twitch in over a year, I was drawn to it in my spare time during the short period prior to my first full time job after finishing my studies. My life has changed a lot in the past two years and their are far more important aspects in life which draw my attention, I have little free time as well. Also you must be very self-conscious if you honestly think one has to stream their demo to demonstrate they aren't cheating, that just indicates your disrespect and distrust towards other players with exceptional playing ability, you'll never be a talented survivalist like me :)

 

Let me make it clear I don't give a damn what you or anyone else thinks of me, when I am passionate about a subject I will speak my mind truthfully even if it means being brash at times, both online and in real life, I won't be intimidated by anyone and will confront them with assertion and confidence. I'm here for fun, making speedruns and commenting on subjects once in a while which capture my eye.

 

Thank you for revealing your true colors, seething with jealously and enveloped by arrogance, you've lost what respect I had for you. If you've come to your senses you will offer an apology, take a good luck in the mirror before you make such a disgusting accusation against a fellow Doom player, who has not caused strife and discord but shows humility and respect with a care free attitude, or will you continue this charade and repeat history, replicating the case of Okuplok? If you do continue to accuse, it will be solely for my amusement as I will not take you seriously and will likely ignore you. Choose wisely.   

[Tarnsman]

I'd like to thank Bloodite for providing the framework for my new favorite copypasta.

[esselfortium]

Oh jeez. Claiming that ZeroMaster, of all people, is just jealous of your skill.

[Tristan]

13 minutes ago, Bloodite Krypto said:

you've lost what respect I had for you

 

sucks when that happens doesn't it?

[Tarnsman]

This post really deserves to be engraved on like a ten foot tall stone tablet and placed at the entrace of some sort of Hall of Fame for legendary posting.

[ReaperAA]

@Tarnsman u trying too hard to gain some likes, don't u think?

[NaZa]

EDIT: deleted a stupid post by myself

Edited May 1, 2019 by NaZa

[Tarnsman]

@ReaperAA

Nah, sometimes art deserves to be appreciated and the creator thanked for their contribution to history.

 

I will say, Bloodite's comparisons to things like J4rio's previously thought to be impossible Tyson runs doesn't hold up. Those are the culmination of countless failed runs. Where as ironman is supposed to be a singular attempt. That is where the contention comes from. Someone being able to pull off an insane feat through constant struggle and attempts is a lot different than consistently performing at that level on single attempts, often supposedly blind.

[loveless]

We've got a defensive wall of text, finely crafted with language seething pure anger telling us how much one doesn't care.  

  

Sounds like a lot of caring, though.

[j4rio]

4 minutes ago, Tarnsman said:

This post really deserves to be engraved on like a ten foot tall stone tablet and placed at the entrace of some sort of Hall of Fame for legendary posting.

 

Just shut the fuck up already.

 

@Sindrom Dude, zm's post is obviously not jealousy related when he took the time to at least bring up and explain his reasoning. You could at least try and adress those points. There are many instances where your demos just scream preknowledge of maps, while you vehemently claim none of it is based on any grounds. If you don't want to put the accusation to rest because of a "jealous accuser", do it for somebody who genuinely wants to believe you. 

[leodoom85]

Bravo guys. Now let me buy some popcorn to do the demos later and eat it, if I have enough time that is...

[Loud Silence]

People are funny. :)

[NaZa]

Just now, Rimantas said:

People are funny. :)

Sorry for jumping to another topic, but your demo doesn't work on my side. If you still have your demo, can you please tell me the total time that elapsed the moment you beat E1M4? Thanks.

[seed]

26 minutes ago, loveless said:

We've got a defensive wall of text, finely crafted with language seething pure anger telling us how much one doesn't care.  

  

Sounds like a lot of caring, though.

 

My thoughts exactly. Often those who claim they don't care probably care the most. Oh the irony.

[Loud Silence]

@NaZa I recorded it with Eternity Engine dev build. https://devbuilds.drdteam.org/eternity/

It's pretty long demo. I downloaded it now from thread and will rewatch it now. But i don't know how to check total time.

[NaZa]

Just now, Rimantas said:

@NaZa I recorded it with Eternity Engine dev build. https://devbuilds.drdteam.org/eternity/

It's pretty long demo. I downloaded it now from thread and will rewatch it now. But i don't know how to check total time.

Yes, I have trouble watching Eternity demos on my end for some reason. You can check total time on the intermission screen, below level time.

[Pegleg]

ToD recorded a video of himself playing "Subtle Shun." This is a screenshot from that video.

 

 

This is what the entire video looks like--all you see is ToD's hands, mouse, keyboard, and monitor. (You also hear him talking and hear the TV in the background, but that is immaterial to this point--sound wouldn't really be necessary.)

 

It seems to me that this would be the only way to ensure that there is not cheating--by forcing participants to record a video of themselves playing the level. No multiple cameras, no starting up a playback, just start up the video, show yourself loading the game, show yourself setting any compatibility levels, etc., and show yourself playing. If you want to be very overbearing, record yourself loading the demo that you just made and play it back.

 

I predict that if this were to be required, the level of participation would be slashed significantly. There might be a few people who would do this, but I doubt it would be more than a few. But for those that are really concerned about cheating through demos and streams, this would alleviate their concerns.

 

Of course, this would still not keep people from lying about whether the run was Category 1, 2, or 3. So, even with this very draconian requirement for a very specific type of video recording, there would still be an element of the honor system. For example, someone could still be accused of having prepared for what they claimed was a "blind" run.

[leodoom85]

1 minute ago, NaZa said:

Yes, I have trouble watching Eternity demos on my end for some reason. You can check total time on the intermission screen, below level time.

You can't see the time elapsed on automap like in PR/GLBoom+?

That kinda sucks.

[Altazimuth]

6 minutes ago, NaZa said:

Yes, I have trouble watching Eternity demos on my end for some reason. You can check total time on the intermission screen, below level time.

What's the issue you have with demo playback? I can try look into it when I get back to working on EE proper.

[Tarnsman]

I don't think anyone is suggesting that handcams or streams become the norm. Just that extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

 

With something like standard speedrunning you have thousands upon thousands attempts so skill ends up shining through at the end because you end up with an average of all the items skill can't control for.

 

With the ironman runs, particularly blind ironman runs, the things that skill can't control for become a lot more of a factor. There are plenty of things in doom that qualify as 'random bullshit' that can end even the most skilled of runs. Avoiding this pitfall in 1 of your 100 attempts that you happen to post is believable. Doing it in 28 of your 30 attempts is much, much less. This is the critical component of Zeromaster's protest.

 

This isn't simply someone being really good at Doom, it's someone being improbably lucky in a way that's increasingly unlikely as it continues to happen. And if the response to this is to drop the dramatic-reading-of-the-year candidate and accuse Zeromaster of all people of jealousy, that's not exactly a good look.