the one thing to balance DOOM

[Nevander]

23 hours ago, chowbar said:

reduce lost soul health

This. Literally the only change Doom needs. Which is why I have done so in my Blood Fixer Plus mod.

Edited May 1, 2019 by Nevander

[seed]

43 minutes ago, Nevander said:

This. Literally the only change Doom needs. Which is why I have done so in my Blood Fixer Plus mod.

 

And make them more aggressive a la Doom 64, then they're perfect 👌. 

[Cruduxy Pegg]

If the chaingun uses cells it'd be worse than the pistol which is an achievement. Horrible dps and even more horrid ammo efficiency. Tapping is the only saving grace for the weapon and penalizing that is a straight up toss into the trash bin.

[CyberDreams]

13 hours ago, Doomkid said:

Why would you nerf one of the lowest-tier guns? Almost every mod that tries to “balance” Doom usually gives it more kick since it’s inferior to the plasma gun, ssg and even the single-barrel in like 80% of situations you’ll find yourself in when playing the average Doom map..

 

When playing deathmatch I curse authors who insist on spawning you with the CG (which includes myself) because it’s so wimpy compared to the shotguns, cell guns and even the dangerous RL.

 

The chaingun is basically worthless in multiplayer and is only good as a sniper or clearer of zombiemen in SP. It has it’s place though, in many of my maps I force the player to rely on the chaingun for the first segment because once you find the plasma it’s essentially only there for when you’re out of cells as a second-rate backup gun.

 

If your goal is to incentivise pistol use, make it much more accurate than the CG is and increase it’s rate of fire a bit. I did this for Rowdy Rudy and several players told me it made the pistol substantially more useful and satisfying.

True. I'd also say that you could use the CG to clear out Demons/Spectres. I've seen it done in some oldschool demo's. Not sure if it's viable today, but essentially sniping is the way to go with it due to it's accuracy. I wouldn't know about Multiplayer though, but i'll take your word for it ;)

 

@The OP - Even if you wanted to do something like this, i think that some people tend to forget that Doom and Doom II aren't exactly the same game. I mean, sure they play/look basically the same but the fact that the bestiary is extended and the inclusion of the SSG does change the way that you play.

 

For Doom, this new CG ammo change would drastically make the CG worthless as you tend to use it more, especially earlier on like most people have already said, and for Doom II it might do the same thing as well but then again, it might not be as harmful in the long run since i don't recall it being used as much (but then, whats the point when you have the Plasma Rifle).

 

Overall though with most people playing PWAD's probably with D2's bestiary/weapon this would be a worthless change to the CG since you just don't use it much in those types of PWAD's (except for sniping which would be totally bonked by this new change). As for Ultimate Doom PWAD's, they would TOTALLY be affected by this change, and not in a good way.

[SaladBadger]

i'm actually terrified at this point that this suggestion is 100% serious, despite this being one of the worst suggestions i have ever heard in terms of doom balance. why is everyone so obsessed with trying to "fix" the pistol?

[Dark Pulse]

11 hours ago, Capellan said:

 

Clearly you are not old enough to remember the NERDRAGE when Deus Ex: Invisible War (the only DX I actually like) did this. :)

Speak not its name, lest its maggoty corpse rise anew to haunt us all.

[Kira]

27 minutes ago, SaladBadger said:

why is everyone so obsessed with trying to "fix" the pistol?

The common argument is that it becomes obsolete a few seconds in any map but I don't completely agree with this sentiment. I rely on it a lot of the time actually, to finish off enemies that didn't fall on my intended kill shell. Also switches and secrets.

[LadyVader1138]

1 hour ago, Kira said:

The common argument is that it becomes obsolete a few seconds in any map but I don't completely agree with this sentiment. I rely on it a lot of the time actually, to finish off enemies that didn't fall on my intended kill shell. Also switches and secrets.

And even without it, it is just meant to be a weak starting weapon to encourage you to find the better stuff AND to serve as a punishment if you die in a level instead of having limited lives.

[Boondorl]

3 hours ago, SaladBadger said:

why is everyone so obsessed with trying to "fix" the pistol?

 

A lot of it boils down to balance philosophy. Some designers prefer starting weapons be bad to encourage players to find better weapons. This can have its own benefits, like encouraging the player to not stick with the weapon the whole time and to explore for new ones. The downside in Doom's case should be obvious: dying resetting your arsenal means every level needs to be designed to be beatable from Pistol start, and if the Pistol is bad, well... This can cause levels to feel watered down in comparison to how challenging a level near the end of the game realistically could be. Some WADs just straight ignore this rule either by assuming you're saving or giving you every gun at the start (even MAP30 does this in Doom 2).

 

On the other hand, some designers prefer diversity of roles in a weapon arsenal. To a lot of people, why have the Pistol if the Chaingun is better in every way? Duke 3D takes this approach more with its pistol being a fast firing, accurate weapon with its major downside being a brief reload. In Doom's case this can fix the aforementioned problem of levels needing to be watered down since you can assume the player has a good weapon at all times, but mods that attempt it often feel off because the game simply wasn't designed around it (read: it can make the game too easy). For maps that don't care about Pistol starts it feels much more fitting.

 

There's other balance differences but those aren't specifically related to starting weapons. Designers that want to "fix" the Pistol are usually more focused on diversifying weapon roles while those who are fine with it as is are okay with a more tier-based system.

[Loud Silence]

I love Doom how it already is.

[Kira]

@Boondorl Improving the difficulty curve of levels from a pistol start standpoint is a solid argument. I never do continuous so I tend to forget how bonkers this design is despite the convenience for mappers.

[Doomkid]

14 hours ago, Nevander said:

This. Literally the only change Doom needs. Which is why I have done so in my Blood Fixer Plus mod.

Why is it necessary to reduce lost soul health? That removes basically the only thing that makes them a threat. One SSG blast already takes care of them, if you could kill them with a single barrel shot they would be almost entirely helpless.. there’s already like 5 enemies that die from a single shotgun shell, I’m glad lost souls are basically like flying pinkies in terms of strength.

[Boondorl]

8 minutes ago, Doomkid said:

Why is it necessary to reduce lost soul health? That removes basically the only thing that makes them a threat. One SSG blast already takes care of them, if you could kill them with a single barrel shot they would be almost entirely helpless.. there’s already like 5 enemies that die from a single shotgun shell, I’m glad lost souls are basically like flying pinkies in terms of strength.

 

Most of the time it's a change that's accompanied by making them more aggressive (see: Doom 64). That way they don't take as many shots to kill but will immediately get on your face if you don't prioritize them. Doom 1 is also in that awkward state where it doesn't have the SSG yet so Lost Souls feel pretty spongy. They also don't get any buff with fast monsters unlike our pink friends so they pretty much always stay useless.

[Cruduxy Pegg]

I'll have you know lost souls on nightmare are horrifying and can ruin a run in less time than a pinky. They are pretty much the biggest danger in many fights since they are one of the few monsters that counter circle strafing, nerfing their health usually makes them a complete non-threat (99% of edited lost souls) or stupid game ruiners (the other edits that usually have a stupid kamikaze attack).

[Mk7_Centipede]

i just want to make doom feel more like ultimate doom i guess

Edited May 4, 2019 by Mk7_Centipede

[Capellan]

8 hours ago, Dark Pulse said:

Speak not its name, lest its maggoty corpse rise anew to haunt us all.

 

Invisible War is as underrated as the original DX is overrated, IMO.

[Dark Pulse]

4 minutes ago, Capellan said:

 

Invisible War is as underrated as the original DX is overrated, IMO.

The good does not outweigh the bad, just like in DX, the bad does not outweigh the good.

[Empyre]

19 hours ago, Capellan said:

 

Clearly you are not old enough to remember the NERDRAGE when Deus Ex: Invisible War (the only DX I actually like) did this. :)

I am old enough to remember it working just fine when all the weapons in Blake Stone shared one ammo pool.

[Capellan]

18 minutes ago, Dark Pulse said:

The good does not outweigh the bad, just like in DX, the bad does not outweigh the good.

 

For me it more than did.  IW is the only DX game I would consider re-playing.

 

As far as the original point of the thread goes (he said, in an attempt to be relevant to the wide conversation), like most other commenters I think it is a terrible idea.  The OP is of course fully entitled to like what they like, though.

[ReaperAA]

The best way to balance to Doom is do what Skillsaw did with Valiant.wad

 

Buff the chaingun's rate of fire so that it becomes more powerful at stunlocking enemies BUT becomes less ammo efficient at sniping enemies. And give pistol more rate of fire and accuracy so that it replaces the chaingun for the sniping role.

[hella knight]

I keep telling myself that OP is just trolling because I don't have time to hate someone this much right now.

[Maximum Matt]

On ‎5‎/‎1‎/‎2019 at 10:38 AM, Boondorl said:

You're gonna have to make the Pistol shoot nukes if you want people to actually use it.

I support this idea.

[OliveTree]

Really disappointed in the forum right now, tbh :/

 

Heaven forbid somebody think out of the box and imagine potential ways to reinvent the mechanics of Doom, it's not like thats the entire premise of this modding community.

[Alper002]

I think it has to do with the name of the thread, honestly.

If it was called something other than it's current thread name, "The one thing to balance DOOM", I think most people wouldn't critizise the idea as heavily.

Mostly because, well, this suggestion doesn't live up to the current title's hype.

 

The idea is still kind of bad, though, mostly because it makes the chaingun worse than it already is.

[Doomkid]

25 minutes ago, EtherBot said:

Really disappointed in the forum right now, tbh :/

 

Heaven forbid somebody think out of the box and imagine potential ways to reinvent the mechanics of Doom, it's not like thats the entire premise of this modding community.

I certainly didn’t mean my criticism of the idea as a slight against the OP himself and I hope it doesn’t come off that way, I disagree with his idea but it’s nothing personal of course

[Maximum Matt]

You know what would be cool? If Doomguy had nunchucks

[seed]

On 5/2/2019 at 1:29 AM, Doomkid said:

Why is it necessary to reduce lost soul health? That removes basically the only thing that makes them a threat.

 

Imo, because they just aren't too big a threat but rather an annoyance. They don't do much damage, have slow attacks, and are infuriating when they go out of your range or sight (just wait for them to come back later, if they even come back at all...).

 

They'd be better if they had less health (personally, I'd say a shotgun blast should always kill them), but also make them more aggressive, just like Doom 64 did, so that they're easy to dispatch but are also more dangerous to the player. In classic Doom they're just frustrating to fight... Yes, they have their purpose in the game and community wads, that much is not questioned, but that doesn't make them fun.

Edited May 4, 2019 by seed

[Maximum Matt]

Not to mention the fact that nine times out of ten they start infighting if they're in a group.  Just makes them seem idiotic.  

[xvertigox]

the one thing to balance DOOM

Spoiler

-fast

 

[ReaperAA]

3 hours ago, Maximum Matt said:

You know what would be cool? If Doomguy had nunchucks

 

Instead of Tyson runs, we would have Bruce Lee runs. I like it.