To the creators of the ZDoom/Chocolate/PrBoom/Vavoom & Crispy source ports

[kb1]

21 hours ago, xvertigox said:

@kb1 In VR lowering the fov by occluding peripheral vision is sometimes used to reduce motion sickness (normally while sprinting). I'm not sure if that holds true for 2D screens but it could be something to look at given the speed of Doomguys movement.

Interesting. I've been asking questions to narrow down the possible culprits. It seems to occur when watching demos, so it's not playing the game that causes motion sickness. And, aparently, motion sickness doesn't happen with action movies, so it's not specifically the fact that there's high-speed movement.

 

One thing that I've noticed over the years is that, if you watch an action movie, frame by frame, moving bjects can become extremely blurry, but this is not noticed at full speed.

 

In contrast, in high-frame-rate video games, moving objects are perfectly clear when the playback is paused, which is unnatural. Based on this, if I had to make a guess, I'd say that vanilla_d00m suffers from having extremely fast vision, with low persistence.

 

If that's true, the issue could be reduced by:

• even faster frame rates
• simulating motion blur

Now, I know that some modern games fake motion blur, by simply oversampling, and actually blurring objects, by drawing them over themselves translucently at slight offsets. But, proper motion blur requires more: The effect must follow the trajectory of the movement, be linear, and be split along primary colors. The eyes have a different persistence for red vs. green, for example. You might be able to see this effect:

 

Make this image large, and "quiver" as you look at it, or move your eyes so the image is quickly within your FOV. Some people can see the red dots "quiver":

 

 

I'm pretty sure this is due to the red having a longer persistence in the eyes. I think if motion blur took this into account, motion sickness could be reduced.

It's just a theory, though.

 

[-TDRR-]

You could try playing with Pixel Eater's Motion Blur (using LZDoom to fix the problems you had with GZDoom) and disabling autorun to minimize the impact of motion sickness.

[vanilla_d00m]

I just stopped playing.. and believe me, it was hard to do so.  

 

Seeing my cousin play it and me running out the room because i was like 6 or 7 made me think this so called DOOM game is for the big dogs only. 

[-TDRR-]

40 minutes ago, vanilla_d00m said:

I just stopped playing.. and believe me, it was hard to do so.  

 

Seeing my cousin play it and me running out the room because i was like 6 or 7 made me think this so called DOOM game is for the big dogs only. 

Aw, that sucks. You could maybe give it a try someday, but anyways if you are sure in your decision we aren't stopping you.

[vanilla_d00m]

 

[kb1]

2 hours ago, vanilla_d00m said:

I just stopped playing.. and believe me, it was hard to do so.  

 

Seeing my cousin play it and me running out the room because i was like 6 or 7 made me think this so called DOOM game is for the big dogs only. 

I'm starting to think that motion sickness is only part of your story...

 

If you get a chance, I'd appreciate if you could review a couple of my previous questions. For example, I asked you about watching action movies, about looking out the car window, etc. If you could respond to those questions, I'd be grateful. I'm thinking that, if I can better understand your issues, I might be able to develop a software remedy, or, at least, improve the experience for people that suffer with such issues. I'd like to give it a try. The questions I asked were carefully designed to help me narrow down the possibilities. Who knows, maybe one day you'll be able to play without getting sick! Or at least, you might discover what makes the problems occur.

 

Thanks in advance.

[Ferk]

@vanilla_d00mCould you also answer the question about what control settings you use?

The fact that you feel more dizzy when you are watching a demo than when you are playing could be a sign that it's related with the "feeling of control" you have.

If you are using a wireless gamepad/mouse, for example, there will be input latency which could make a barely noticeable delay in the movement that might be sickening. Also with keyboard keys and gamepad joysticks the movement speed might be more linear and less natural than with mouse.

if you use a mouse and have mouse acceleration turned on then that could also affect, since the movement might be less predictable causing speeding that's inconsistent with the travel distance of the mouse.

 

 @kb1About motion blur.. there's also complaints for motion sickness using Doom (2016), and for that they said motion blur is actually making it worse. There's also mixed feedback about FOV, I guess it depends on the screen aspect ratio.

 

 

Edited May 23, 2019 by Ferk

[vanilla_d00m]

I tried everything (wireless mouse, corded mouse, keyboard only, mouse accel on/off) 

 

havnt tried tdrr's post. 

 

I'm going to try out pixel eaters motion blur right now, but if it makes it worse, guess im retiring (im falling asleep all the time here)

 

but if all goes well... I guess a donation for all ur hard work suggestions :)

Edited May 23, 2019 by vanilla_d00m

[kb1]

On 5/23/2019 at 5:37 AM, Ferk said:

@vanilla_d00mCould you also answer the question about what control settings you use?

The fact that you feel more dizzy when you are watching a demo than when you are playing could be a sign that it's related with the "feeling of control" you have.

If you are using a wireless gamepad/mouse, for example, there will be input latency which could make a barely noticeable delay in the movement that might be sickening. Also with keyboard keys and gamepad joysticks the movement speed might be more linear and less natural than with mouse.

if you use a mouse and have mouse acceleration turned on then that could also affect, since the movement might be less predictable causing speeding that's inconsistent with the travel distance of the mouse.

 

 @kb1About motion blur.. there's also complaints for motion sickness using Doom (2016), and for that they said motion blur is actually making it worse. There's also mixed feedback about FOV, I guess it depends on the screen aspect ratio.

Good to know. I still think I'm onto something, though. I would think that motion blur, done incorrectly, might be as bad, or worse than not having motion blur at all.

I'm also starting to think that the weapon bobbing may play a role as well.

 

 

11 hours ago, vanilla_d00m said:

I tried everything (wireless mouse, corded mouse, keyboard only, mouse accel on/off) 

 

havnt tried tdrr's post. 

 

I'm going to try out pixel eaters motion blur right now, but if it makes it worse, guess im retiring (im falling asleep all the time here)

 

but if all goes well... I guess a donation for all ur hard work suggestions :)

Let me ask my exact questions here, if you don't mind. If you do mind, please tell me and I'll stop asking).

1. Do you get motion sickness watching movies with lots of fast action?
2. Do you see an unexpected effect when looking at the picture I posted above? (it's pale green with red dots)

If you want to figure it out, I have 2 things you might try. Again, if you're not interested, please reply or PM me, ok?

1. As an experiment, find some thick paper or cardboard. Tape it to your monitor, in such a way that it totally covers up DoomGuy's gun, hiding the weapon bob effect. Play for a couple of minutes, and see if it helps.
2. As a mental exercise: Spend a few minutes relaxing before playing, to help expel any negative energy. Then, the second part of the exercise is to imagine that you are controlling a robot who's actually the one playing Doom. Imagine that the robot has a camera installed, and on your monitor, you're watching the output of the camera.

#2 may sound a bit silly, but please try it anyway. From what I've read, a theory is that motion sickness happens when the eyes see the movement, but the body doesn't feel the movement, which causes a "disconnect". If that's true, then you may be able to convince your mind that you're not moving - you're just watching a robot move.

 

Anyway, that's just about all I have for now. Thanks for letting me ramble, and, if you're leaving, best of luck to you! And, please let me know if either technique helps.

 

Edit: No donation required - thanks, though.

Edited May 24, 2019 by kb1

[vanilla_d00m]

ill try it next year :)

 

Silly.... whatever works, is yelling "IDDDDD SOFTWAAAAAAAAAARRRRRREEE"  while trying to finish the game silly??

 

The classic doom music's is phenomenal and will forever be stuck in my head.

Edited May 24, 2019 by vanilla_d00m

[kb1]

11 hours ago, vanilla_d00m said:

ill try it next year :)

 

Silly.... whatever works, is yelling "IDDDDD SOFTWAAAAAAAAAARRRRRREEE"  while trying to finish the game silly??

 

The classic doom music's is phenomenal and will forever be stuck in my head.

For some reason, you still haven't answered me, despite me asking 3 times. I was hoping to work with you to find a possible remedy. I guess I'll take the hint, though I did ask you to tell me if you didn't want me to pry. That's the most silly thing so far.

[vanilla_d00m]

ill try it someday :)  I have the most ultimate motion sickness i ever had. 

 

You're questions are going to be answered.. i just don't really know when man.

 

EDIT:

 

Ok... once i feel like the day before I even touched doom again in april, I will answer you're question.

Edited May 25, 2019 by vanilla_d00m

[vanilla_d00m]

"Ask me about my source port"

 

kb1...   does you're source port play nice??

 

EDIT:

 

kb1, I'm already done with doom.. over the top motion siickness, it even makes me twitch! (its really not fair.. i really like the music in the game and i remembered all the levels in ultimate doom but whatever)

 

 

I only check to see if the creators of the source ports i used wanted a donation.

 

but yea man ggs all..

Edited May 25, 2019 by vanilla_d00m

[kb1]

2 hours ago, vanilla_d00m said:

"Ask me about my source port"

 

kb1...   does you're source port play nice??

 

EDIT:

 

kb1, I'm already done with doom.. over the top motion siickness, it even makes me twitch! (its really not fair.. i really like the music in the game and i remembered all the levels in ultimate doom but whatever)

 

 

I only check to see if the creators of the source ports i used wanted a donation.

 

but yea man ggs all..

It took you more time and energy to write that replay than it would take to answer the 2 simple questions (about TV, and about the green and red image) :)

 

Source port? It's getting there. If I'd find some time to work on it, I'd have more to say. Anyway, feel better.

[vanilla_d00m]

On 5/23/2019 at 7:47 PM, kb1 said:

Good to know. I still think I'm onto something, though. I would think that motion blur, done incorrectly, might be as bad, or worse than not having motion blur at all.

I'm also starting to think that the weapon bobbing may play a role as well.

 

 

Let me ask my exact questions here, if you don't mind. If you do mind, please tell me and I'll stop asking).

1. Do you get motion sickness watching movies with lots of fast action?
2. Do you see an unexpected effect when looking at the picture I posted above? (it's pale green with red dots)

If you want to figure it out, I have 2 things you might try. Again, if you're not interested, please reply or PM me, ok?

1. As an experiment, find some thick paper or cardboard. Tape it to your monitor, in such a way that it totally covers up DoomGuy's gun, hiding the weapon bob effect. Play for a couple of minutes, and see if it helps.
2. As a mental exercise: Spend a few minutes relaxing before playing, to help expel any negative energy. Then, the second part of the exercise is to imagine that you are controlling a robot who's actually the one playing Doom. Imagine that the robot has a camera installed, and on your monitor, you're watching the output of the camera.

#2 may sound a bit silly, but please try it anyway. From what I've read, a theory is that motion sickness happens when the eyes see the movement, but the body doesn't feel the movement, which causes a "disconnect". If that's true, then you may be able to convince your mind that you're not moving - you're just watching a robot move.

 

Anyway, that's just about all I have for now. Thanks for letting me ramble, and, if you're leaving, best of luck to you! And, please let me know if either technique helps.

 

Edit: No donation required - thanks, though.

 

Bump... I just healed and im going to answer the questions the best of my ability,

 

I don't get motion sicknss in movies with fast action.... unless im watching the movie doom with the rock from wwf.

The pale green red dots thing...... when i do the quiver, the red dots on the right go down, the left goes up... 

 

The no bob thing didnt work.... i expelled some negative energy and same thing.

 

Just playing doom for 2 seconds makes me sick..... i feel blood rush to my head instantly and then.... everything starts to suck.

 

 

I can listen to the music though which is a blessing (e1m1)  thinking about doom in my head gives a little sickness too... great.

 

 

EDIT: that pale green red dots made me dizzy.. no wonder i couldnt answer ur question last month, the thread was unbearable (falling off my seat unbearable)

 

Edited July 16, 2019 by vanilla_d00m

[kb1]

Hi vanilla_d00m!

 

Thanks for the answers. Sorry about the dots. When I was about 6, we used have this very cool, spooky board game called The Green Ghost (image). It consisted of a large piece of molded plastic that was glow-in-the-dark green with red lettering painted on it. I remember it having that curious quivering effect on my eyes. I really loved that game when I was a kid!

 

I did not realize that you had a long term sickness - sorry to hear that. The motion sickness thing is a bummer. I did not mean to excessively pry - I just cannot imagine how that feels, and I wanted to be able to understand. And, above all, I'd love to figure out if there's a way to reduce/eliminate the issue. I am convinced that the key lies in the difference between an action movie and a first-person shooter. Movies tend to run somewhere between 24 and 30 frames-per-second, but Doom starts at 35 frames-per-second, and modern ports can multiply that number up to the monitor refresh rate (which usually ranges between 60 frames-per-second up to 144 or beyond).

 

What this means is that shooters should be huge improvements on movies: higher frame-rate, higher resolution, sharper images, etc. The fact that the problem becomes so much more severe in shooters is very counter-intuitive.

 

Something about the movie is correcting the motion-sickness problem. But the movie images are so much poorer in comparison. It doesn't make sense...

...except for one difference: Movies have natural motion blur. Film exposure time and camera image retention time cause the motion that occurs *between* frame 100 and frame 101 to appear in frame 101 as a "smear" of color super-(or sub) imposed.

 

This is the only difference I know of, between movies and generated scenes (shooters): Shooters don't display proper motion blur. Some shooters do have a "motion blur" option which blends the previous X frames into the current frame, but that's not the same thing.

 

I have some ideas I'd like to try...maybe one day I'll ask you and some others to test out some alpha-version source ports (for only a minute or so), if you'd be willing.

 

EDIT: Better picture of The Green Ghost.

 

Edited July 18, 2019 by kb1

[vanilla_d00m]

lol

 

I'm healed now... i tried zdoom again (i need my doom fix) and tried ultimate doom, but BEFORE i did anything in the game i pressed ESC as fast as i can (one move in the game and im gone so i was nervous) this is what i did:

 

- Made shure the room is fully light and very bright.

 

- movebob 0 cl_capfps true & rendering: original

 

- set the resolution to max on zdoom 1280?

 

- brightness 1.50

 

- keyboard only, im done using the mouse

 

- move a little far back from the monitor

 

And the last and final thing... I put alot of still objects in front of my monitor (peanut butter jars, water bottles, holy bible, tums calcium holder, baking soda box.

 

I was able to play... and now i can play :)

 

 Or maybe I was lucky.... i didnt play for an hour, i'm still little scared after i completed ultimate doom while it felt like the room was spinning.

 

 

Its a start though..

 

 

 

EDIT:

 

i think im done for good.. it was nice registering to this site, I had fun.

Edited July 18, 2019 by vanilla_d00m

[kb1]

Good talking to you. Take care.

[vanilla_d00m]

I sent you a PM... maybe you can give me more suggestions, I'll give it one more go.