unpopular retro opinions

[dr_st]

I found GTA3 clunky, but Vice City was fine and I didn't feel it was clunky at all. San Andreas has tons of things, but that's also partly its problem: it is just too big, and it tries to be everything - from a fighting game to a flight simulator. I have a saved game where I'm stuck at the Verdant Meadows airport trying to pass the flight training missions, and the last one is so annoying, that I just put the game aside. I have more fun ways to spend my time.

[seed]

I don't find VC, SA, or whatever clunky at all honestly, I loved them as a kid and had a ton of fun with them, although I've never managed to finish them since I didn't care for it at the time. And nowadays I can't really stand that gangsta attitude in SA anymore.

 

But that game was full of content for sure, and there was a ton to do, it was quite a journey. The characters were interesting too.

[hybridial]

Well here's mine, all the GTA games suck :P

 

Every last one. Especially when they involve any driving. 

[seed]

22 minutes ago, hybridial said:

Well here's mine, all the GTA games suck :P

 

Every last one. Especially when they involve any driving. 

 

But driving in these games was madness if you had cheats enabled :D :D .

 

SA also had some real over the top events when it came to this, I still remember one involving Big Smoke when he destroys his car completely following an explosion.

[dr_st]

The car names in GTA1 were the best. Mundano, Penetrator, Porka Turbo, Jugular. The rest of the game - not so much. The fact that you couldn't retry failed missions was a really really bad gameplay decision.

 

In GTA3 it was cool when you get the bulletproof Patriot from this guy. And in VC you could deliberately fail one of the missions to get an all-proof Admiral.

[seed]

15 minutes ago, dr_st said:

The car names in GTA1 were the best. Mundano, Penetrator, Porka Turbo, Jugular. The rest of the game - not so much. The fact that you couldn't retry failed missions was a really really bad gameplay decision.

 

Lmao these names are so silly but funny.

 

I agree though, never like the fact that you couldn't just retry the missions once failed, you had to go all the way back to the to do it. Or so it was from VC onwards, I've not played the older titles.

 

Also fun fact, as a kid I thought VC was a silent game. At the time the pirated copy I had simply didn't have the sound working, and coincidentally many videos I found were also silent. So, for a brief period of time I thought sound and music became a thing only after SA :v.

[dr_st]

1 hour ago, seed said:

I agree though, never like the fact that you couldn't just retry the missions once failed, you had to go all the way back to the to do it. Or so it was from VC onwards, I've not played the older titles.

You haven't played the older titles, so you don't understand what I'm talking about. :) In GTA1 you simply could not retry failed missions. You get one try. Fail a mission - it's gone. Try the next one. And there is no save. Fail too many missions - good luck finding other ways to attain the target score for completing the level. Might have to restart the whole thing.

Edited May 23, 2020 by dr_st

[seed]

2 minutes ago, dr_st said:

You haven't played the older titles, so you don't understand what I'm talking about. :) In GTA1 you simply could not retry failed missions. You get one try. Fail a mission - it's gone. Try the next one. Fail too many missions - good luck finding other ways to attain the target score for completing the level. Might have to restart the whole thing.

 

WTF.

 

Okay, now that's bullshit. I thought it was just an inconvenience, not a huge deal like this. One of the dumbest decisions I've seen...

[CherubCorps]

 

3 hours ago, hybridial said:

Well here's mine, all the GTA games suck :P

The only GTA game I ever played was the original from 1997. The radio stations were amusing. Not being able to replay missions was lame. Overall, It was OK and kinda forgettable. To this day, I'm still surprised that GTA blossomed into such a juggernaut franchise. 

 

Not a fan of Serious Sam games. Didn't find it fun. It's fast gameplay where you fight hordes of enemies, but Sam moves too slow. I'm also not a big fan of the aesthetic (Minus the Sam logo and the headless AAHHH soldiers).

[randomgamerguy1997]

1 hour ago, RomDump said:

 

Not a fan of Serious Sam games. Didn't find it fun. It's fast gameplay where you fight hordes of enemies, but Sam moves too slow. I'm also not a big fan of the aesthetic (Minus the Sam logo and the headless AAHHH soldiers).

 

Thankfully Serious Sam 3 fixed the problem of Sam moving too slow.

[arnaldocsf]

Ok, so talking about GTA. The first one is the best, the second is a little lame but playable, IMO. Everything after that don't work for me, Vice City, San Andreas... whatever. I don't like it. At all. 

 

We can talk about ARPG here? 'cause Diablo II it's a good game, but a real mess to play online. So many builds, so many combinations, so many things to understand and so litte time to do that... took all the shine off. 

 

 

[Dragonsbrethren]

I started with GTA3 and that trilogy was great, San Andreas being the best of the bunch. But GTA4 and 5 are no where near as fun because of their driving physics and tanky walking controls. Every time I try to play them, I just want to go back to one of the older games.

[OliveTree]

atari adventure is better than the original zelda in terms of design and balancing

[dr_st]

@seed

Yeah, totally. However, it is perfectly understandable in the first game, which is revolutionary and implements concepts that hadn't been done before. They probably did not get enough external playtesting before release to get a good idea of what gameplay mechanics would be fun. The key lessons were learned, and already in GTA2 you can both retry missions and save your game. However, saving costs money, so it was intended to be used sparingly, just so as not to force you to play the entire episode in one sitting (which could take several hours). Also, there are still limited lives, so it is possible to "lose" and have to start the map over. In GTA3, the lives mechanic was also removed, but then it would have been pointless anyways, since there are unlimited free saves now.

 

4 hours ago, arnaldocsf said:

Ok, so talking about GTA. The first one is the best, the second is a little lame but playable, IMO. Everything after that don't work for me, Vice City, San Andreas... whatever. I don't like it. At all. 

That's not an opinion you see every day indeed. :) Is it the 3D environment or something else? I recall I had similar feelings at first coming into GTA3 off GTA2. I still can't describe it better than "clunky". The pace felt slow, the character moved slow, the carhandling felt poor, as in every hit throws it off the course. By the time I got to GTA:VC, two things happened - the game got better, and my playing skills got better, so overall it was a much more fun experience for me (it is also the first game of the series that I fully completed).

 

3 hours ago, Dragonsbrethren said:

But GTA4 and 5 are no where near as fun because of their driving physics and tanky walking controls.

Really, so they changed the way the walking controls work? The first trilogy offers two options: mouse+keyboard which is the standard WASD for movement, mouse for turning, and joypad mode (which can be played on the keyboard), where every directional input has the character turn and run in that direction.

[A Nobody]

I played the PlayStation version of GTA 2.

Edited May 24, 2020 by The Strife Commando

[taufan99]

Another retro (?) music opinion (special DragonForce edition):

Valley of the Damned > Through the Fire and Flames.

[Dragonsbrethren]

6 hours ago, dr_st said:

@seed

Really, so they changed the way the walking controls work? The first trilogy offers two options: mouse+keyboard which is the standard WASD for movement, mouse for turning, and joypad mode (which can be played on the keyboard), where every directional input has the character turn and run in that direction.

It's not so much that they changed the controls as much as it is they changed the player's momentum when changing directions. You can't really turn on the fly video-game style anymore. It's a more realistic lean into a curve turn. Tanky might not have been the right choice of word for it, maybe sluggish?

 

In any case, I forgot about the mouse + keyboard controls in the PC versions. They're ok on foot, but for driving I prefer a controller for GTA. Thankfully there's a really good Xinput mod for the PC version of SA.

[dr_st]

I keyboard-only everything. :) The only games where I use mouse+WASD are modern FPS. Although I think that GTA:SA especially can benefit from analog stick precision at certain points. Like that flight training mission I hate. I did give it a few tries with a controller, and didn't do much better.

[Smouths]

Couldn't get into Duke3D, Unreal, or Halo in the slightest.

 

Descent 2 was better than Quake 2, both as a game and as a sequel, with a better soundtrack to boot (no offense to Sonic Mayhem, as the Q2 OST was still good.)

 

Commander Keen was super charming, but not very fun.

Edited May 24, 2020 by Smouths

[dr_st]

@Smouths

I actually preferred the MIDI soundtrack of Descent II; pity there are only 4 distinct level tracks. They obviously invested more in the Redbook audio, but apparently screwed it up in some of the re-releases.

[VGA]

22 hours ago, Rathori said:

Except it's the same engine with bells and whistles bolted on as they made newer games, and the handling is pretty much the same between the games. Also VC is the best of 3D-era GTA games (i.e. before GTA IV) - SA's too big and has too many pointless crap that no one would care about or notice if it wasn't there.

San Andreas is much improved technically and the driving is better (once you max the driving skill to get rid of the annoying unfair spinouts)

 

The shooting is also better, the music/radio stations are better, too. And the map is impressively huge and with many optional things to do. They went all out in that one.

 

San Andreas is better than GTA 3 in all respects. Vice City has that nice 80s vibe with a Scarface-inspired storyline so it has aged better than GTA 3. But the gameplay mechanics are worse than GTA:SA.

[Smouths]

8 hours ago, dr_st said:

I actually preferred the MIDI soundtrack of Descent II; pity there are only 4 distinct level tracks. They obviously invested more in the Redbook audio, but apparently screwed it up in some of the re-releases.

 

The midi soundtrack was great, but yeah, definitely wish there were more tracks. The redbook audio had a huge influence on my musical tastes growing up though, and was partly what got me into music production when I was younger. Been wanting to sort through the various releases of D2 and grab all of the extended and alternate mixes and put together a custom compilation for DXX-Rebirth that could possibly span the whole SP campaign, lol.

Edited May 24, 2020 by Smouths
I've kind of got shit taste in music tho tbh

[Woolie Wool]

On 5/24/2020 at 9:20 AM, dr_st said:

@Smouths

I actually preferred the MIDI soundtrack of Descent II; pity there are only 4 distinct level tracks. They obviously invested more in the Redbook audio, but apparently screwed it up in some of the re-releases.

 

I prefer to play Descent II with MechWarrior 2's soundtrack.

 

Descent 1's level design was way better than the sequel's. The D1 levels were complex and the 6DoF style was hard to come to grips with, but they had more structure and within-level variety than the endless cavern sprawl of D2. The music and robots were better too. I would say it is the better game but I can't because of the FUCKING CLASS 1 DRILLERS AND RED HULKS JESUS CHRIST

 

Jazz Jackrabbit 1 had better art, music, and humor than Jazz Jackrabbit 2 but was let down by exceedingly poor jump physics in a genre where the jump physics are everything.

 

The SoundBlaster was a monumental piece of shit and Creative's business practices held PC audio back for years, if not decades.

 

I enjoyed the Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale games, but Planescape Torment was an obtuse, unattractive, miserable game whose setting and atmosphere vacillates between crass wallowing in gore, grime, and sex, and po-faced pseudo-philosophy that has little application to real life, and its attempts to be sophisticated and mature only make it seem more childish than Baldur's Gate. And the gameplay was just outright garbage that squandered the tactical potential of the Infinity Engine.

 

Icewind Dale II had the most interesting combat and RPG system of any of the Infinity Engine games, and I'd love to play a version of Baldur's Gate II that used IWD2's weird pseudo-3E rules.

 

On 5/21/2020 at 2:42 PM, The Strife Commando said:

Nintendo is not overrated. They saved gaming. Without them, it would have died because of Atari's greed.

There were these things we had in the early 1980s called "arcade machines" and "home computers" (and not just IBM's PC either, but machines by Apple, Commodore, Sinclair, Acorn, Atari, the MSX consortium, and many others) that had their own video games. There were also other countries in the world besides the United States. The "Great Gaming Crash of 1983" and Nintendo's deliverance is a myth perpetuated by provincial American console users, who, like most Americans, do not consider anything outside their own country and their own experience significant at all.

[DRM-MAN]

"There were these things we had in the early 1980s called "arcade machines" and "home computers" (and not just IBM's PC either, but machines by Apple, Commodore, Sinclair, Acorn, Atari, the MSX consortium, and many others) that had their own video games. There were also other countries in the world besides the United States. The "Great Gaming Crash of 1983" and Nintendo's deliverance is a myth perpetuated by provincial American console users, who, like most Americans, do not consider anything outside their own country and their own experience significant at all."

 

Nah that's just humans in a nutshell

[A Nobody]

18 minutes ago, Woolie Wool said:

 

I prefer to play Descent II with MechWarrior 2's soundtrack.

 

Descent 1's level design was way better than the sequel's. The D1 levels were complex and the 6DoF style was hard to come to grips with, but they had more structure and within-level variety than the endless cavern sprawl of D2. The music and robots were better too. I would say it is the better game but I can't because of the FUCKING CLASS 1 DRILLERS AND RED HULKS JESUS CHRIST

 

Jazz Jackrabbit 1 had better art, music, and humor than Jazz Jackrabbit 2 but was let down by exceedingly poor jump physics in a genre where the jump physics are everything.

 

The SoundBlaster was a monumental piece of shit and Creative's business practices held PC audio back for years, if not decades.

 

I enjoyed the Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale games, but Planescape Torment was an obtuse, unattractive, miserable game whose setting and atmosphere vacillates between crass wallowing in gore, grime, and sex, and po-faced pseudo-philosophy that has little application to real life, and its attempts to be sophisticated and mature only make it seem more childish than Baldur's Gate. And the gameplay was just outright garbage that squandered the tactical potential of the Infinity Engine.

 

Icewind Dale II had the most interesting combat and RPG system of any of the Infinity Engine games, and I'd love to play a version of Baldur's Gate II that used IWD2's weird pseudo-3E rules.

 

There were these things we had in the early 1980s called "arcade machines" and "home computers" (and not just IBM's PC either, but machines by Apple, Commodore, Sinclair, Acorn, Atari, the MSX consortium, and many others) that had their own video games. There were also other countries in the world besides the United States. The "Great Gaming Crash of 1983" and Nintendo's deliverance is a myth perpetuated by provincial American console users, who, like most Americans, do not consider anything outside their own country and their own experience significant at all.

Well I'm not American so...

[Mr. Freeze]

Do people actually dispute the Crash of 1983 to not be primarily localized in America? All of the literature I've read on the subject identifies it as an American event. 

 

And to me, Planescape's strength is in it's philosophy and storytelling. I'd rather have Chris Avellone philosophy-wank for six hours than play anything in Forgotten Realms, or worse some fantasy game that tries to be #relatable with a poorly-told allegory (why yes, racism is bad especially when it's between white people  Dwarves and Elves). Fantasy is the realm of mediocre authors and I appreciate Torment's attempt to buck the trend. 

[Chip]

I don't understand all the ganging up against these opinions. I mean, the topic is literally called Unpopular Retro Opinions, so there are going to be things you disagree with. people getting angry because you oppose their opinion is mind boggling. In life there happens to be people that don't agree with you. getting mad about it doesn't solve anything, it just makes you look foolish. And I am not discluding myself from this, but seriously, who cares? the opinion is harmless, and you don't have to get mad about it. 

I'm just asking you (and myself) to not try to take away someone's opinion by giving them "facts" which are just your opinions.

[dr_st]

What are you talking about? Who's angry? Who's "ganging up"?

[hybridial]

7 hours ago, Woolie Wool said:

I enjoyed the Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale games, but Planescape Torment was an obtuse, unattractive, miserable game whose setting and atmosphere vacillates between crass wallowing in gore, grime, and sex, and po-faced pseudo-philosophy that has little application to real life, and its attempts to be sophisticated and mature only make it seem more childish than Baldur's Gate. And the gameplay was just outright garbage that squandered the tactical potential of the Infinity Engine.

 

Damn, that's savage. I actually have not played it yet, I've started it a bunch of times but never got very far. I'm playing Icewind Dale now and enjoying it, and I love the Baldur's Gate games. I do definitely intend to play through Planescape Torment, I have no idea how I'll feel about it in the end, I know not to expect it to be as fun in the combat department. I generally like dark and miserable atmospheres though :P I'd like to play Icewind Dale 2 at some point but its a bit of a technical nightmare to get it to work properly, really sad they can't find the source code for it. 

 

I generally appreciate what Beamdog have done for these games, but Siege of Dragonspear sucked, and it sucked because they treated it like they were making a new RPG and a lot of the design choices were against the spirit of the original games. And if you're making a game on a 20 year old engine, the simple fact is your audience is not going to be a fresh audience, its going to be the vets, and they did not design it at all to what long term players would want from it, so outside of other issues (the writing is kinda bad regardless) it was kind of doomed to fail fundamentally. 

 

Also after having played through Pillars of Eternity, 90% of Pillars of Eternity 2, as much of Pathfinder Kingmaker and Divinity Original Sin 2 as I could fucking stand, and well, to be fair, not really played Tyranny but heard it's kind of a mixed bag. But of the others? I'll take Baldur's gate 1 and 2, and even Icewind Dale over them, because they are objectively better designed and better written, and what problems they have are technical, and also that they come from a time where the manual is huge but you have to read it. But I don't see the accessability argument because Original Sin 1&2 and Kingmaker are actually much more frustrating, obtuse and pains in the asses than those 20 year old games that were actually made by competent people and hold up far better than you'd expect. I don't think people really understand what they mean when they randomly throw the word "dated" at a lot of games. 

 

Quote

And to me, Planescape's strength is in it's philosophy and storytelling. I'd rather have Chris Avellone philosophy-wank for six hours than play anything in Forgotten Realms, or worse some fantasy game that tries to be #relatable with a poorly-told allegory (why yes, racism is bad especially when it's between white people  Dwarves and Elves). Fantasy is the realm of mediocre authors and I appreciate Torment's attempt to buck the trend. 

@Mr. Freeze I didn't know how to edit this into my post as a proper quote, but, anyway, I like quite a bit of Forgotten Realms fiction and I think you'd be surprised at the quality of some of it. Depends on the writer really I guess, and I think Baldur's Gate is of a high quality as a story until Throne of Bhaal where it kinda buttrushes to the finish line, I guess just the consequence of stuff that happened in its development, but, that said, Bioware have made far worse when it comes to ending a saga poorly. 

Edited May 29, 2020 by hybridial

[Woolie Wool]

7 hours ago, Mr. Freeze said:

Do people actually dispute the Crash of 1983 to not be primarily localized in America? All of the literature I've read on the subject identifies it as an American event. 

 

And to me, Planescape's strength is in it's philosophy and storytelling. I'd rather have Chris Avellone philosophy-wank for six hours than play anything in Forgotten Realms, or worse some fantasy game that tries to be #relatable with a poorly-told allegory (why yes, racism is bad especially when it's between white people  Dwarves and Elves). Fantasy is the realm of mediocre authors and I appreciate Torment's attempt to buck the trend. 

I found his philosophy-wank in Pillars of Eternity to be both more applicable and more interesting, and delivered by better characters to boot.

 

1 hour ago, hybridial said:

I generally appreciate what Beamdog have done for these games, but Siege of Dragonspear sucked, and it sucked because they treated it like they were making a new RPG and a lot of the design choices were against the spirit of the original games. And if you're making a game on a 20 year old engine, the simple fact is your audience is not going to be a fresh audience, its going to be the vets, and they did not design it at all to what long term players would want from it, so outside of other issues (the writing is kinda bad regardless) it was kind of doomed to fail fundamentally.

I liked Dragonspear's storyline right up to the point where the game took away Caelar Argent's agency and gave it to that pretty-boy wizard and the boss from IWD1. I was revved up for an epic and tragic ideological confrontation between my LG paladin and a relatable but misguided LG antagonist and got a generic final dungeon and boss fight against a cackling monster covered in spikes. What a letdown.

Edited May 29, 2020 by Woolie Wool