Doom 64 coming to PC and modern consoles?

[sponge]

6 hours ago, Jon said:

I think the Nintendo SDK is incompatible with the GPL which rules out most ports. 

 

Yup, 100% correct. Wouldn't work on any console, GPL or LGPL. I would've absolutely loved to base the console ports off of something like Chocolate or Crispy Doom, but that just can't happen. Console SDKs are confidential, and can't be released in any form.

 

Quote

I think it's a unity wrapper around the doom 64 bfg edition classic engine (which had been adapted to split screen etc). I suspect plugging unity into the Nintendo SDK was an easy path.

 

Also basically correct! I wrote up a little explainer for my personal portfolio: https://d8d.org/professional/ We're basically using Unity kind of like SDL, except Unity helps handle a lot of stuff you need to pass console cert that homebrew doesn't need to worry about, like handling Joy-Cons correctly, user profile management, touch controls with feedback. Not having to build our own 2D UI, or trying and bolt all of it onto the Doom engine is another advantage. All of that, plus the ability to ship on 5 platforms simultaneously would've taken significant amounts of time if we had to develop all the cross-platform hooks ourselves. The D3 BFG Classic Doom is the Doom used in the original XBox, and the 360/PS3 ports and is on GitHub. The "Doom as a shared library" part of it is new to this port, and isn't open unfortunately. I think it's a cool model to be able to run an unlimited amount of instances of Doom at once that way.

 

It's a bit weird that a lot of the conversation around it has turned into "Doom ported to Unity" it's not like we rewrote the whole Doom engine to use ECS and C#. That Doom core can be pulled out and you could call it's functions from Python if you wanted to, but that wouldn't mean Doom was ported to Python.

Edited September 5, 2019 by sponge

[TakenStew22]

Holy shit I did not know about this yet. Definitely gonna get this on Switch.

[chungy]

6 hours ago, sponge said:

Yup, 100% correct. Wouldn't work on any console, GPL or LGPL. I would've absolutely loved to base the console ports off of something like Chocolate or Crispy Doom, but that just can't happen. Console SDKs are confidential, and can't be released in any form.

I don't think this is a real barrier.

 

The same can be said of the Steam SDK -- it is GPL-incompatible. Strife: VE works with it by having a little shim driver that can talk to the SDK library without needing to break any licenses.

 

And really, do you think Nintendo would REALLY object to something like Strife: Veteran Edition just because of a pre-existing software license? Any hypothetical port could shove the Switch-specific bits off to the side.

[Edward850]

50 minutes ago, chungy said:

Strife: VE

Strife: VE has special permission granted for its use on Steam and GOG, and thus does not qualify as an example in this scenario.

 

50 minutes ago, chungy said:

And really, do you think Nintendo would REALLY object to something like Strife: Veteran Edition just because of a pre-existing software license? Any hypothetical port could shove the Switch-specific bits off to the side.

It's not Nintendo that would be the key issue here, though they would be if you in turn tried to open source their SDK. GPL seems to be a very fickle thing to use on consoles due to the nature of the console integration and its various certification requirements. We generally try to avoid it ourselves, it's not worth the hassle, even if you could legally stretch it. That's ignoring striking head-first into the Tivoization clause in GPL3, of course, which basically would outright shitcan any idea from the start.

Edited September 6, 2019 by Edward850

[Ferk]

The way Wyrmsun workarounds Steam SDK integration for its GPL engine is by having what's essentially a launcher, there isn't even any dynamic linking gluing together the GPL game and the proprietary launcher (I don't think the GPL would even allow that, it would have to be LGPL).

But I expect that this might not be an option for consoles.

[Jon]

4 hours ago, chungy said:

I don't think this is a real barrier.

 

The same can be said of the Steam SDK -- it is GPL-incompatible. Strife: VE works with it by having a little shim driver that can talk to the SDK library without needing to break any licenses.

 

Is the Steam SDK under an NDA? The issue with GPL-and-Nintendo-SDK isn't from the GPL side, it's from the NDA side. Exposing the API by publishing the source is the breach.

 

 

[Quasar]

4 hours ago, Jon said:

 

Is the Steam SDK under an NDA?

 

Sort of, sort of not. I really don't get the situation around it. The API is pretty much public knowledge but when you get licensed to use it, it still comes with all the boilerplate language you'd expect for an NDA. It's kind of dumb.

[FreakZoneGames]

18 hours ago, Gez said:

The problem is that "and" has a sequential value.

 

For example, if I say "you can get in your car and drive to your job", it makes sense, the actions come one after the other. If I mix it up and say "you can drive to your job and get in your car" then it gets weird. Perhaps you drove to your job, left your car there, and came here with the company car, and I'm telling you to drive the company car back to your workplace and get in your own car?

 

On the other hand, if I say "you can get Doom64 EX and buy the Doom 64 re-release", then I could order it the other way around because the two things do not depend on each other. You can do one, or the other, or both, in any order.

Oh wow are we really gonna have this conversation? LOL

Yeah it's an old phrase and it's not worded as clearly as it could be. But it works. It doesn't say "And then", it just says "and" You're talking as if it says "And then"....Aaaand let's get back on topic cause this is silly :P

[Jalapen0]

My concern with Doom 64 on the Switch is that are there problems with Doom Eternal for the Switch which would lead that game to being released on the Switch later than the PC, PS4, and XB1 versions?

[Dark Pulse]

6 hours ago, Jalapen0 said:

My concern with Doom 64 on the Switch is that are there problems with Doom Eternal for the Switch which would lead that game to being released on the Switch later than the PC, PS4, and XB1 versions?

The answer is "Who knows," but since they've gotten their feet wet porting Doom 2016, I'd imagine they've got a fairly good grip on the Switch hardware by now.

[D4NUK1]

On 9/6/2019 at 11:29 AM, Jalapen0 said:

My concern with Doom 64 on the Switch is that are there problems with Doom Eternal for the Switch which would lead that game to being released on the Switch later than the PC, PS4, and XB1 versions?

Im sure Panic Botton it's the one making Doom Eternal for Switch, as they made the Doom and Wolf ports.

 

This port will be doing by NDS. Different People, different studios, so im sure will not affect the Switch Release if Panic Botton can do their work without problems.

[BlumKram1]

well, we all gotta wait for an official word on it, I'd gladly download Doom on PC, got tired a bit of PS.I do really hope if D64 does get ported that Kaiser includes a finished multiplayer mode/split screen,

[Caffeine Freak]

https://www.pcgamer.com/doom-eternal-has-been-delayed-until-2020/

 

 

 

YEEAAAHHHH!!!!!

 

[Devalaous]

Delayed with Eternal though, RIP

[ASON-Z-]

Well I certainly wasn't expecting them to port it to every other platform.

Definitely looking forward to how they're going to remove the Nintendo references in every other release besides the Switch.

[Gez]

On vendredi 20 septembre 2019 at 12:17 PM, BlumKram1 said:

I do really hope if D64 does get ported that Kaiser includes a finished multiplayer mode/split screen,

The problem here are the levels. Doom 64 has several levels where room-over-room is simulated by having sectors moving up and down while you're not seeing them, so you can for example walk under a bridge, and then above the bridge, but in fact you're walking on the same floor each time.

 

Add multiplayer on a level like this and you have a problem because one player could stay there and look at the sector shifting while the other player triggers the changes.

 

I suppose they could do like in Strife VE and add multiplayer maps, while not allowing coop in the single-player campaign. But that's IMO the very outmost that can be realistically expected; it'd be all around simpler for everyone not to bother with MP support at all.

[seed]

1 hour ago, aSeriesOfNumbers said:

Well I certainly wasn't expecting them to port it to every other platform.

 

I did, ratings for the PS4 and PC leaked a while ago, it was only a matter of time before they confirmed the rest of the platforms beside Switch.

[Graf Zahl]

1 hour ago, Gez said:

The problem here are the levels. Doom 64 has several levels where room-over-room is simulated by having sectors moving up and down while you're not seeing them, so you can for example walk under a bridge, and then above the bridge, but in fact you're walking on the same floor each time.

 

Add multiplayer on a level like this and you have a problem because one player could stay there and look at the sector shifting while the other player triggers the changes.

 

I suppose they could do like in Strife VE and add multiplayer maps, while not allowing coop in the single-player campaign. But that's IMO the very outmost that can be realistically expected; it'd be all around simpler for everyone not to bother with MP support at all.

 

Or change the levels to use true 3D structures in those places. But that's something unlikely to happen because it not only requires a new engine but also a careful reworking of the maps.

 

[cybdmn]

On 10/10/2019 at 9:45 AM, Graf Zahl said:

 

Or change the levels to use true 3D structures in those places. But that's something unlikely to happen because it not only requires a new engine but also a careful reworking of the maps.

 

 

As far as i remember, "3d bridges" are rather rare in Doom64, but carefully playtesting and reworking of the maps is needed, if you want to add coop support, because many scripted stuff in the game could potentially cut-off the other players on many occasions.

[Devalaous]

I dont think the community would take it kindly if the only rerelease on PC thats ever happened, wasnt the original mapset, but instead altered ones for shoehorned multiplayer

[Nevander]

A better alternative would be a new set of levels designed for coop, to be played in coop. No fancy lock ins or fake 3D effects. They might be boring but at least it would work. Also playable in solo, of course. But, I doubt they would bother anyway. That's why we are here, to be the ones to make such maps.

Edited October 13, 2019 by Nevander

[Gerardo194]

On Wednesday, October 09, 2019 at 6:42 PM, Caffeine Freak said:

https://www.pcgamer.com/doom-eternal-has-been-delayed-until-2020/

 

 

 

YEEAAAHHHH!!!!!

 

Is that YEEAHH a reference to that guy yelling YEEAHH last E3 conference?

[ZeroTheEro]

15 minutes ago, Gerardo194 said:

Is that YEEAHH a reference to that guy yelling YEEAHH last E3 conference?

A general sign of joy, mate.

[Graf Zahl]

On 10/12/2019 at 2:05 PM, cybdmn said:

 

As far as i remember, "3d bridges" are rather rare in Doom64, but carefully playtesting and reworking of the maps is needed, if you want to add coop support, because many scripted stuff in the game could potentially cut-off the other players on many occasions.

 

 

I can outright tell you that the maps as-is are not suitable for multiplayer at all. While there are not many obvious 3D structures, another thing is far more common, i.e. that you have corridors crossing each other at different heights. The entire map is done so that at some point far from the intersection the properties of the intersection sector are changed. This is perfectly fine for singleplayer but won't ever work for multiplayer unless the map is changed.

 

And whether they consider it worthwile to edit the maps or even add some dedicated MP maps to the game remains to be seen. Even though previously unavailable to PC users it's just an old game from over 20 years ago that will mostly apply to retro fans, and they are not the kind of group that's easy to milk with online playing services. My guess is that they'll just release the game as-is with an engine that won't cost them too much effort.

 

[Dark Pulse]

Guys... I'm pretty sure it's going to be a rather straight port with no real engine modifications in terms of additional functionality. Quit daydreaming that it'll be this Doom64+ or something. That's something the community might do; maybe GEC or something, but it almost certainly will never happen for a commercial product. The margins for something like this are already pretty small - arguably even futile, if it weren't packed in with something like Doom Eternal.

 

There may well be extra content, but almost certainly there won't be anything that fundamentally changes the engine - and including functional co-op would most definitely be that, because of the tricks used to fake 3D and thus any map using it would need to be redesigned (or have some form of real 3D floors) to be workable.

Edited October 14, 2019 by Dark Pulse

[Gez]

22 minutes ago, Dark Pulse said:

I'm pretty sure it's going to be a rather straight port with no real engine modifications in terms of additional functionality.

Yeah.

 

Dedicated multiplayer maps, fully separated from the single-player maps of the original campaign, is what they did for Strife: Veteran Edition; Strife being another game where the maps were not designed to be compatible with multiplayer. So it's kind of the upper bound of what can be reasonably expected in terms of effort. And again, one shouldn't go in expecting even that to be a given; it's so much simpler to just not have multiplayer at all.

[Lollie]

One of the big reasons why people are hoping for any sort of multiplayer in Doom 64, is because it's already been kind of available in Doom 64 Ex — just not in a stable state. The proof-of-concept is already there.

 

It also helps that Nightdive has been supporting online multiplayer for re-releases of games that previously already had multiplayer (Turok 2, Forsaken, Blood ), so it's clear that a game's age and niche target audience hasn't stopped them. Whether this will be extended to an official release of Doom 64 (which had no multiplayer) is yet to be seen, but as far as daydreams go, it's not an entirely unreasonable daydream.

 

The main issue is content: Do you take a page from Turok 2 and offer a "Best Of" selection of maps from the main campaign, retooled for deathmatch? Do what was done for Strife and build a new episode of levels specifically for co-op?

 

 

Open up the PC release of Doom 64 for custom levels and modding, and give the game new life with community contributions?

[Graf Zahl]

3 hours ago, Lollie said:

One of the big reasons why people are hoping for any sort of multiplayer in Doom 64, is because it's already been kind of available in Doom 64 Ex — just not in a stable state. The proof-of-concept is already there.

 

A proof of concept is rarely more than 10% of the needed work.

 

 

3 hours ago, Lollie said:

 

It also helps that Nightdive has been supporting online multiplayer for re-releases of games that previously already had multiplayer (Turok 2, Forsaken, Blood ), so it's clear that a game's age and niche target audience hasn't stopped them. Whether this will be extended to an official release of Doom 64 (which had no multiplayer) is yet to be seen, but as far as daydreams go, it's not an entirely unreasonable daydream.

 

As you said, "that already had multiplayer". Making multiplayer of a capable game operational again is relatively easy - adding working multiplayer to a game that never had it is a major piece of work, because you can be certain that, since the feature was not on the table during development, any part of the game can show problems. Like the abovementioned map design issues or an engine that has no stable transferable state and many, many more. Also, in a commercial environment this kind of enthusiasm has no place - you have to bring in a game on budget and that will normally not include this kind of work because it is very time consuming

 

 

 

[Nevander]

I just hope that WADs created with Doom Builder 64 will be compatible with this new release. That would be perfect.

[Dark Pulse]

2 hours ago, Nevander said:

I just hope that WADs created with Doom Builder 64 will be compatible with this new release. That would be perfect.

Doubtful, since that would mean allowing for custom WADs, and if it is a straight port for the most part, custom levels are unlikely to be a priority.

 

That and really it should be moved to DB2/DBX/GZDBBF.