Any Opinions On Episodic WADs?

[DSC]

As you all know, many famous wads out there like Eviternity, Scythe 2, Ancient Aliens and Valiant follow this game structure in which there are several episodes each with their own theme, which the maps follow. To be honest, I personally don't really like that system a whole lot: it makes maps have a lot less variety appearence-wise, which can get very tiresome, especially if it is a long 32 map megawad. I am more the kind of guy that likes for all the individual levels to be their thing. Anyways, got any opinions on this?

[gaspe]

I have some mixed feelings on that format. Having different themes is quite cool because when you change episode you got to see something new, on the other hand it's more difficult for the maps to stick out when they have to follow a strong thematic consistency and even if each map has its own individuality they tend to blend all together. Scythe 2 really start to shine from the mid point (episode 3) but I still can remember rather well the remaining parts. To me the worst offender of this is Valiant, the first and the last episode are rather striking but I don't remember pretty much nothing of the middle episodes other than the theme.

[ukiro]

Achieving thematic continuity and making the levels feel like parts of a cohesive whole is something many appreciate, not least because Doom II did so poorly in this regard, but also because of the additional immersion it provides. Setting the cut-off points, often via death exits, at 5 or so maps makes it easier to design for both continuous and pistol start play. A theme per chapter or episode lets you explore more nuances of that theme than if it all had to live within a single level. For Eviternity specifically, I suppose some map pairs look quite similar, like 7 & 8, 16 & 17, and to some extent 22 & 23. But within every single chapter there is a still lot of variety in size, play style, visuals, etc.

 

Making each level be its own thing with no consideration for surrounding maps is more common in the larger community projects. If we compare this to music it's more like a compilation or a playlist than an album. But what's the point of a megawad if it's just a random jumble of levels, other than the convenience of only having to load a single wad? I suppose difficulty could still scale continuously in that scenario, but I personally struggle to think of something I value higher in a megawad than thematic coherence.

[Tartlman]

Yeah, I agree that valiant is one of the worst offenders of episodic sameness. Episode 2 has no maps that stand out to me, and the only map in episode 3 (not counting the secret levels cause those are their own thing) that stands out to me is Crush Depth (but BOY that is a great map). Valiant even starts to feel like a slog during the 4th episode, although the sweeping lunar landscapes of the 5th is usually a good enough reason to continue. For me probably one of the better cases is ancient aliens, since each level is distinct in their own way, save for map02 being distinct in its uninterestingness. Like, we've got a map that happens in a gradually lowering sinkhole, a map with a couple giant towers in the center, and a map where two archviles must be avoided and blown up by teleporting barrels - all in the same visual theme.

 

As for eviternity, i'm still working through that one.

[Maximum Matt]

It breaks shit up

[Slartibartfast]

Well. It's going to be totally subjective, as always... But I guess you knew that from the start.

I'm going to force the book analogy here: you can theme something very hard (think Hobb's Apprentice series), which has its strengths in consistency and clarity (especially evident in the "all-mighty" E1), but will fail in variety, or you can be more loose or "opaque" let's say with your direction, and just go for good maps irrespective of what precedes and supersedes it (think most Arthur Conan Doyle stuff).

But I feel like stating these opinions is preaching to the choir. Of course it's gonna be subjective. But okay, let me put my opinion like this:
If you're gonna theme, do it Sigil or Thy Flesh Consumed* style and theme VERY HARD. Stick to it even in sacrifice of map creativity if necessary.
If you're not gonna theme, try to avoid having a half-ass tendency to do that throughout your map set. Err on the side of being more distinct from map to map. D2 The Way Id did It was a superb example of how you do that. IIRC, Alien Vendetta (which is my personal favorite so forgive me my bias) is probably the one that did that anarchic "do whatever you want but god damn it let the map be fun" the best.

For an example of the latter, think DOOM 2. There's kinda a theme? Somewhere? There are story beats that never tie into anything you do, but there's like 3 "episodes" or whatnot? IMO D2 fucked up by half-theming, half not theming. It feels... Undirected. Sort of like there was supposed to be a concept, a red line or whatever, but rushed development or "let's lump it all on Sandy" made it both themed and not. And that's why I have a rather sharp distaste for most D2 maps, even though I admire their creativity.

TNT/Plutonia are together a great example of how the dichotomy of theming can be either used (TNT) or totally disregarded (Plutonia) while still yielding superb map making. It's as Ron Swanson said: "Never half ass two things. Whole-ass one thing."

*We don't talk about E4M4.

Edited October 29, 2019 by CinnamonKilljoy
More examples

[Andromeda]

12 hours ago, CinnamonKilljoy said:

*We don't talk about E4M4.

What do you mean? It's one of the best levels in the episode :)

 

On-topic, I really don't mind episodic wads, it's still Doom so it's awesome.

[gaspe]

On a second thought it's weird how you are putting Ancient Aliens together with those other 3 wads. From what I saw AA follows more the traditional megawad structure and doesn't have the strong, thematic mini-episodes format that made Scythe 2 and Valiant so characteristic.

Edited October 30, 2019 by gaspe

[DynamiteKaitorn]

I don't mind episodic style WADs. It helps me skip bad episodes and play the good ones. Also, episodic helps me understand how much further I need to go before I can stop playing and take a break. (I know technically I can do that literally anywhere but if, for example, I wanted to do a bunch of maps, an episode makes it a little easier).

[Doomkid]

Ahh so we're talking more about clustering maps by theme than a more literal "episodic format" a la Doom1.

 

I don't have one strict preference. In the realm of deathmatch, I love both EXEC.wad and the Onslaught series. They both feature consistent theming visually, a sort of gothic/brick/temple thing going on sometimes, lots of support3 borders, all that jazz. I'm kept in by the gameplay though, and I'd be lying if I said I didn't start to get a little tired of the visuals after the 10th - 15th round or so in succession. Obviously it's not like I get permanently bored with them or whatever, I'm just done for the day at that point.

 

On the other hand there's more "anything goes" type deathmatch packs. Some maps feel right out of the iwads, some maps are gothic, some maps are modern and uber detailed, some maps are all silver and "sci-fi" or whatever else. I honestly have a slight preference for this kind of mix-tape approach, particularly in deathmatch, which is not at all narrative driven anyway. I don't have time to get bored with one theme, just enough time to appreciate it for that round, then moving onto the next stage.

 

The same thing kinda sorta applies to my SP dooming, but less so. If the maps are completely, in no way whatsoever thematically linked, yeah it gets pretty weird and disjointed, because there's supposed to at least be some minimal level of continuity throughout a campaign. On the flipside if I'm getting to like the 6th map in a row that is visually identical to the 5 preceding it, yeah it gets a bit old. I made this mistake to some degree with how I directed Doomed in Space, though it's not that bad because it can be beaten pretty damn quickly and each map is distinct from the last - just not starkly enough to avoid feeling repetitive, unfortunately.

Edited October 31, 2019 by Doomkid

[ReaperAA]

If its done in Eviternity's style (each map feeling distinct while still adhering to the theme of the episode), then yes I like it.

[Mk7_Centipede]

i like the BTSX method with a hub that divides separate themes.  I think this is the best method.  Its a bit more organic than UD.  It gives you breather maps which is cooler than drastically dropping off the difficulty for a new episode's map 01.

[Murdoch]

Like most things, you can do it bad, or you can do it well.

[DSC]

On 10/29/2019 at 1:35 PM, ukiro said:

Achieving thematic continuity and making the levels feel like parts of a cohesive whole is something many appreciate, not least because Doom II did so poorly in this regard, but also because of the additional immersion it provides. Setting the cut-off points, often via death exits, at 5 or so maps makes it easier to design for both continuous and pistol start play. A theme per chapter or episode lets you explore more nuances of that theme than if it all had to live within a single level. For Eviternity specifically, I suppose some map pairs look quite similar, like 7 & 8, 16 & 17, and to some extent 22 & 23. But within every single chapter there is a still lot of variety in size, play style, visuals, etc.

 

Making each level be its own thing with no consideration for surrounding maps is more common in the larger community projects. If we compare this to music it's more like a compilation or a playlist than an album. But what's the point of a megawad if it's just a random jumble of levels, other than the convenience of only having to load a single wad? I suppose difficulty could still scale continuously in that scenario, but I personally struggle to think of something I value higher in a megawad than thematic coherence.

I understand where you are coming from. But this is Doom, no one cares about coherence and plot, everybody just wants to kill demons. Look at AV, so far my favorite megawad. Everybody loves it and was undoubtedly very influencial in the community. Most maps don't have nothing to do with each others: a pyramid, a poisonous lake, a sewer, a Dead Simple map, a Living End map, a secret base on the seaside, a depot, a fortress in the middle of a blood sea, a Heretic based map, an IOS map, that one in each section is a different color, an entire island, some kind of facility on a hillside, a mysterious temple sitting on top of a rock in the middle of the sea, a castle,... And that is only around half of the maps!!! My point is, it did not affect the gameplay of Alien Vendetta, it was still fun to go through it.

[BigBoy91]

I like episodic WADs because they have a consistent atmosphere and feel more cohesive than just a bunch of random maps. One of the reasons I like Ultimate Doom more than Doom 2.

Edited November 2, 2019 by lazy91geek

[jazzmaster9]

6 hours ago, DSC said:

But this is Doom, no one cares about coherence and plot, everybody just wants to kill demons. 

You might be surprised how many people, including myself, really put a lot of love and care to have a cohesive structure in terms of Environmental storytelling and theme when it comes to mapping.

[Devalaous]

6 hours ago, DSC said:

But this is Doom, no one cares about coherence and plot, everybody just wants to kill demons.

I strongly disagree. I know im in the minority, but there IS a large group of people that care about the worldbuilding and story within doom wads.

[Doomkid]

I think people who prefer some degree of thematic consistency, or in some cases a fully cohesive campaign, are easily the majority.

 

The expanded bestiary is rarely argued against, but purely from a design and episodic-structure standpoint UD is always the preferred choice over Doom2. The “I prefer Ultimate Doom’s maps and episode-based structure but think the added Doom2 monsters enhance the experience” refrain is one of the oldest and most common at this point.

 

To me it’s clear that most players are looking at the very least for a sense of cohesion, and a smaller subset within that group are probably even craving a narrative. I don’t have strict numbers to back up this claim, I’ve just read thousands upon thousands of threads here and elsewhere over the years stating some variation of this.

Edited November 3, 2019 by Doomkid

[baja blast rd.]

On 10/27/2019 at 11:47 AM, DSC said:

As you all know, many famous wads out there like Eviternity, Scythe 2, Ancient Aliens and Valiant follow this game structure in which there are several episodes each with their own theme, which the maps follow. To be honest, I personally don't really like that system a whole lot: it makes maps have a lot less variety appearence-wise, which can get very tiresome, especially if it is a long 32 map megawad. I am more the kind of guy that likes for all the individual levels to be their thing. Anyways, got any opinions on this?

On 11/2/2019 at 1:42 PM, DSC said:

I understand where you are coming from. But this is Doom, no one cares about coherence and plot, everybody just wants to kill demons.

 

Scythe 2 was a direct source of structural inspiration for Valiant and Eviternity, and Ancient Aliens was led by the dude who made Valiant. So it is unsurprising that visual unity, a quality Scythe 2 champions, is to varying degrees a defining characteristic of this group of megawads. I wouldn't think of it as an intrinsic attribute of that 'system' you refer to. It is perfectly reasonable to take the Scythe 2 format and introduce sub-themes or visual motifs unique to each map, with the primary theme ever present in the background like an ostinato. Guest maps sort of do that by default, being by a different author and all.

 

As others have mentioned, Ancient Aliens is not a clustered megawad. (More evidence for visual uniformity and the cluster format being concomitant only by will of the author.) I'd also say that Eviternity has 'perverted clusters' like Sunlust, albeit in different ways. A few clusters retain the unity you speak of, but guest maps prove 'wider-arcing' curveballs than Ancient Aliens's, perhaps because otex has insane range. 

 

Lastly, Alien Vendetta has loose thematic clusters. They are defined by setting and gameplay more than by textures and colors, and the number of authors involved obfuscates the similarities (or rather, prevents them from taking root as deeply in the first place). Alien Vendetta is hardly the grab-bag of maps you are painting it as. You alluded to being new to pwads. As you play more megawads, you will find that coherence comes in a great number of guises, that it is not always visual unity. Going Down, Speed of Doom, D2tWiD, JPCP... all unified, all in different ways. My guess is you will come to appreciate it.

Edited November 6, 2019 by rdwpa
adding second quote

[Bauul]

On 11/2/2019 at 10:42 AM, DSC said:

But this is Doom, no one cares about coherence and plot, everybody just wants to kill demons. 

 

It's perhaps little surprise that the thematic consistency and environmental storytelling a coherent episode (/ level cluster) experience can provide is lost on you if this is how you approach playing Doom levels.

 

Eviternity's episodes, for example, aren't just thematically coherent across levels, but physically coherent too: each level begins where the prior one ended. You could (more or less) stitch every level from an episode into a single giant map and you wouldn't notice the seems.

 

Many of us thoroughly enjoy the narrative experience of playing Doom levels, the stories each level tells through its environment and type and intensity of the gameplay. Episodes in a megawad give the author an opportunity to extend that experience over multiple levels. Granted some of them can just feel like a bunch of disconnected levels using the same texture set, but when done well they provide a strong and memorable gameplay and experience progression.

[yakfak]

i'm never really that impressed with the ideas of levels following on from one another - making doomguy this indefatigable character who takes on the whole of yr level set without resting isn't storytelling so much as mythmaking and hero-worship. many of the map sets named in this thread are ones I admire but it's not because of their consistency - I'd like them just as much if the map order was scrambled!

Edited November 6, 2019 by yakfak

[DSC]

Seems that most people here appreciate worldbuilding and coherence very much. Fine, then. I too like some good and imaginative storytelling, I apologize if my comments made it seen otherwise. But there is a time and place for it, and Doom just is not the game for this kind of stuff, in my humble opinion.

[3saster]

A unifying theme doesnt even need to be visual, as you'll learn by playing more PWADs. As an example, take one of my personal favorite PWADs, Hell Revealed 2. It has a wide number of authors, and every map is fairly distinct; nevertheless, they do have a number of things that unify them: extensive use of bridges, extreme monster density, the music, etc. There is even a stylistic shift; maps 1-14 are small and short; 15 onwards has maps that are much larger in size and has more exploring. It's distinctive enough in that you could make a map in that style, and someone would say "yeah, that belongs in HR2".

 

Since rdwpa mentioned Alien Vendetta, I'll bring up another curious point about it. Clandestine Complex (MAP24) is a beloved map, everyone likes it! Even so, the vast majority of people will tell you it feels out of place, both in difficulty and visual design. The map it replaced from the first version of version of AV, Valley of Echoes, fits much better in that area as part of the "long and brutal" stretch of AV (which any player will tell you is 25-28, even though the maps are very different from each other). That was, in fact, part of the reason it was removed; it made that "episode" too long and grindy. So even AV, a wad supposedly known for lack of thematic consistency, definitely has episodic clusters, and the team was aware of them.

 

As another consideration, even maps that are heavily tied together thematically can be very distinct. Take the poster child for episodic megawads, Scythe 2, and let's look at its 5th episode for example. The first map is a primarily berserk map, the second is a exacting map with little health or ammo, the third is a very difficult "chess game" (everyone remembers this map!), the fourth a freeform level with a number of raw slaughters, and the fifth a tough level where you do one leg of your choice to get the BFG, then do the other one with it. So even within it's own episodes, the individual levels are very distinctive.

[DSC]

11 minutes ago, 3saster said:

A unifying theme doesnt even need to be visual, as you'll learn by playing more PWADs. As an example, take one of my personal favorite PWADs, Hell Revealed 2. It has a wide number of authors, and every map is fairly distinct; nevertheless, they do have a number of things that unify them: extensive use of bridges, extreme monster density, the music, etc. There is even a stylistic shift; maps 1-14 are small and short; 15 onwards has maps that are much larger in size and has more exploring. It's distinctive enough in that you could make a map in that style, and someone would say "yeah, that belongs in HR2".

I actually wanted to mention the HR duology, but I just couldn´t put my thoughts into words, if you know what I mean... But yes, you are right:both wads have a very distinct style overall, but the maps don´t have that much much to do with each other. But still, I was talking mostly about visual themes in my original comment. You know, there are many wads that do the exact opposite: have a big diversity of level layouts and design but look all the same.

[doomsucksass]

"Any Opinions On Doom 1?"

[Xfing]

So it IS possible to make episodic-format wads for Doom 2 as well? Well, stupid question - No Rest for the Living is one such WAD and even if you make separate ones, it's possible to smosh them together so that they're selectable from the in-game menu. I wonder why no one ever went for a 7-episode Doom 2 WAD that covers the entirety of Doomguy's canon adventures. I suppose Doom Tribute is as close to a realization of that idea as it gets - although it did skip Thy Flesh Consumed, had new enemies and was a traditional 30-mission megawad.

[Devalaous]

I would be much more inclined to finish my backlog of megawads if they used xINFO to divide those 32 levels into episodes

[RHhe82]

Oh, this is an old thread. Oh well, already bumped, so what the heck. I actually quite appreciate episodic structure such as they are employed in, for instance, Valiant or Eviternity, or Sunlust even, although there is a risk that I'm going to have less than stellar time if the theme of the episode (be it visual or some other element) is not to my liking. Valiant is a good example: I like episodes 1 and 5, episode 3 to a lesser extent, and episodes 2 and 4 to even lesser (meaning they're merely very good instead of excellent). For those megawads I mentioned, it's a blessing that there more than 3 episodes, so I don't find them too invariant.

 

That said, I don't mind 3 episode structure, either. Ancient Aliens doesn't grow old even though there are only 3 main themes, from which I like the middle episode the least. There is still enough internal variation there. I guess the trick is that the mapper(s) explores the thematic choice, builds upon previous maps instead of merely making more of the same. Although what this actually means, I can't quite put to words. You know something's gone wrong, when levels blend together.

 

Ancient Aliens does something very right -- episode 1 is desert ruins with some UFOs for 10 levels, and yet I love each level.

 

Sunlust does something very right -- visual themes can be easily be seen, and yet each level feels like its own beast.

 

Heretic fumbles a bit -- granted, I've played it much less than Doom, but levels within episodes blend a bit together, and I'm often surprised that some two sections reside in the same map when I was sure they would not (and vice versa).

[Dweller Dark]

I think episodic structure can be much better as it's easier for me to pace myself by it. I can work on playing an episode each day for WADs with multiple episodes and not wear myself out mentally.

[LadyMistDragon]

It can be good if utilized correctly and in Doom II megawads, is a way of drawing clear lines in the sand so far as providing some hopefully generous limits for mappers to stick to in a megawad project.

 

With Doom 1 content, this gets harder to answer. Generally, that's probably why they tend to stick to something like the techbase/corrupt techbase/hell structure because it does impart a fair degree of distinctiveness. But take something like Base Ganymede for instance. Gameplay doesn't change hardly at all from Eps 1-3, other than a noticeable difficulty curve and encounters are basically what one might expect if someone applied the Scythe formula to Doom 1. It's something that's not properly taken advantage of in my limited experience and it'd be great to see more of that.