Doom and Doom II 2020 re-release

[funduke]

12 minutes ago, Allard said:

No, the uncensored US verison is still on the index. Only the Nazi-less versions are off the hook.

 

Look here:

https://www.schnittberichte.com/news.php?ID=15460
https://www.schnittberichte.com/svds.php?Page=Indizierungen&Kat=Streichungen#liste-aller-listenstreichungen

[Edward850]

35 minutes ago, Allard said:

Just lowkey include the original unaltered IWADs with the PC download as an unadvertised extra.

That would be illegal. Remember, they weren't edited for no reason, you know this.

Edited January 16, 2020 by Edward850

[Allard]

14 minutes ago, funduke said:

 

Look here:

https://www.schnittberichte.com/news.php?ID=15460
https://www.schnittberichte.com/svds.php?Page=Indizierungen&Kat=Streichungen#liste-aller-listenstreichungen

Huh. Wonder if anyone at Beth/Id knows of it.

[Linguica]

44 minutes ago, Allard said:

lowkey include the original unaltered IWADs with the PC download as an unadvertised extra

 

So decide to break the law in Germany and hope no one in Germany notices?

[Edward850]

18 minutes ago, Allard said:

Huh. Wonder if anyone at Beth/Id knows of it.

Bethesda aren't dumb, despite what popular opinion tends to be about their recent games would have you believe. I'm all but certain they know more about that than anybody here.

Edited January 16, 2020 by Edward850

[Dwars]

I'd personally be content with the 'original' version IWADs that come with your purchase for free being the ones used for the source port version. I'd rather fight the Triad with decorations of the Staatmeister El Hitcuro/Gustavo Hilper in the secret levels than Zombiemen in barren blue, red, and gray hallways.

[ENEMY!!!]

 

3 hours ago, Linguica said:

 

So decide to break the law in Germany and hope no one in Germany notices?

Until three weeks ago this would have been a major objection, but not any longer, as the US Doom II IWADs have been taken off the ban list since 30 December 2019.

 

But my guess is that Bethesda (a) are playing it safe and/or (b) may well have decided upon the edits to the current re-releases before the US version of Doom II got taken off the Germany ban list.  There is also the possibility (c) that the Nazi stuff may be legally prohibited in certain countries other than Germany.  Regardless, I think that Germany's change to its laws will make waves and set precedents and that there's a good chance that the next time we see a re-release of the original Doom games it will feature the Nazi stuff unedited - although the changes to the red cross on the health are almost certain to remain for well-documented reasons.

Edited January 16, 2020 by ENEMY!!!

[Allard]

Well at the very least they should include some easily accessible IWADs with the installation.

7 hours ago, Linguica said:

 

So decide to break the law in Germany and hope no one in Germany notices?

Not really, as I've already explained.

Edited January 17, 2020 by Allard

[Edward850]

18 minutes ago, Allard said:

Well at the very least they should include some easily accessible IWADs with the installation.

Unity asset packets aren't encrypted or encoded formats, frankly no more complex than a WAD file itself. Would be dirt easy to add support for in the likes of Slade3 and source ports.

Edited January 17, 2020 by Edward850

[drfrag]

 Well if i'm not wrong this still has wrong aspect ratio for wide screens unless you use 4:3 with black bars. The main feature seems to be split screen which is great, if i'm not wrong the Unity backend launches four instances of the game. I wanted to mention that i've just added native support for 4 XInput controllers to LZDoom (it was in for DInput so it wasn't strictly necessary). This is for fake splitscreen, what i don't like is that you must start the instances yourself, resize them and use up to four different folders with different config files. There must be a way to start the instances with the command line, assign the controllers and create the four config files. Of course no idea of how to do it, right now is a bit tricky to setup but not very complicated after all. May be Rachael could help but she's been banned from this forum so i guess i'll create a thread @zdoom.org soon. I've just got the idea from MultDoom: https://www.doomworld.com/doomgl/other.htm

Quote

This first version was based on the idea rather simple to replace the low-level network functions (sendto and receivefrom) by accesses to a memory shared by two Doom processes launched on the same machine.

 

Edited January 17, 2020 by drfrag

[Allard]

I'm a bit confused: what is the mapping for the Quicksave / Load on PC? F6 and F9 don't seem to be doing anything.

...can you even quicksave on PC?

[Edward850]

7 hours ago, drfrag said:

if i'm not wrong the Unity backend launches four instances of the game.

Kinda sorta. All the globals are put into a class and it just spins up multiple copies of the class for each player. That's also how it handles restarts between switching content. 

[sponge]

6 hours ago, Allard said:

I'm a bit confused: what is the mapping for the Quicksave / Load on PC? F6 and F9 don't seem to be doing anything.

...can you even quicksave on PC?

 

You can, however at the moment you have to hit F5 and F9 while the pause menu is open. Obviously not ideal, and not how practically anyone would expect it to work, but I have it on my fix list.

[warman2012]

Tl,dr: Doom's code is out there, no one can stop the modding scene or get rid of the iwads.

 

Based on what I am seeing, I will say this. Even if Bethesda does lock the iwads behind a Unity compressed file wall or if there are extreme edits to Doom in the re-release, the game is essentially classified as quasi-abandonware. You can get an unmutilated copy on the net if you look hard enough. Even if Bethesda went on a witch-hunt and magically got rid of all sources of the iwads (which they can't), the code is GPLed and community works like Freedoom exist with the code necessary for a rebuild. Add to that the myriad of realm667 edited sprites and the iwads could be rebuilt if necessary.

 

 

[Allard]

5 hours ago, sponge said:

 

You can, however at the moment you have to hit F5 and F9 while the pause menu is open. Obviously not ideal, and not how practically anyone would expect it to work, but I have it on my fix list.

Gotcha, thanks for the reply!

19 minutes ago, warman2012 said:

Tl,dr: Doom's code is out there, no one can stop the modding scene or get rid of the iwads.

 

Based on what I am seeing, I will say this. Even if Bethesda does lock the iwads behind a Unity compressed file wall or if there are extreme edits to Doom in the re-release, the game is essentially classified as quasi-abandonware. You can get an unmutilated copy on the net if you look hard enough. Even if Bethesda went on a witch-hunt and magically got rid of all sources of the iwads (which they can't), the code is GPLed and community works like Freedoom exist with the code necessary for a rebuild. Add to that the myriad of realm667 edited sprites and the iwads could be rebuilt if necessary.

This. After all, the BFG decensor patches were (and are) a thing. I imagine if this version gets released on other stores, a decompressor will be available in around ten minutes, seeing as this illustrious community is not short on people with tremendous coding skills.

Edited January 18, 2020 by Allard

[Edward850]

50 minutes ago, warman2012 said:

Even if Bethesda does lock the iwads behind a Unity compressed file wall

This hasn't happened. It has been explained a thousand times that these formats aren't even remotely obscure. This kind of posting was akin to when we stuck Forsaken's maps and other assets into a literal ZIP file and some people complained they couldn't find the maps anymore.

50 minutes ago, warman2012 said:

the game is essentially classified as quasi-abandonware.

This isn't a thing. Abandonware is a made up term and doesn't have any actual meaning, it's just a blanket term by people who upload old DOS games to websites, generally without bothering to check the active copyrights. Yes, I know full well abandonware is said to mean it's for games that have liquidated IP holders, however that doesn't change anything and the word only gets used in that context very minimally. Doom doesn't even fall partially into that context, the rights of the game are very very well known and understood, and id Software even still exists and actively support and sell the game. It fails the term on every possible metric.

Edited January 18, 2020 by Edward850

[warman2012]

25 minutes ago, Edward850 said:

This hasn't happened. It has been explained a thousand times that these formats aren't even remotely obscure. This kind of posting was akin to when we stuck Forsaken's maps and other assets into a literal ZIP file and some people complained they couldn't find the maps anymore.

I know it hasn't happened. There is a key word here sir, its called If this particular action were done, we (the community) could recover from such a bleak-sounding fate.

 

Quote

This isn't a thing. Abandonware is a made up term and doesn't have any actual meaning, it's just a blanket term by people who upload old DOS games to websites, generally without bothering to check the active copyrights. Yes, I know full well abandonware is said to mean it's for games that have liquidated IP holders, however that doesn't change anything and the word only gets used in that context very minimally. Doom doesn't even fall partially into that context, the rights of the game are very very well known and understood, and id Software even still exists and actively support and sell the game. It fails the term on every possible metric.

Do we really have to cherry pick every word or phrase in a response, even when its not necessary? This takes the context out of what I was saying. Doom is always going to be available in its unmutilated form. Also, I said quasi-abandonware, meaning its one of those things that is and is not. It is in the sense that one can get it from "other sources" that abandonware would otherwise be on. Also, would your average Doom player really care about the distinction? Not really.

Edited January 18, 2020 by warman2012

[Edward850]

14 minutes ago, warman2012 said:

I know it hasn't happened. There is a key word here sir, its called If this particular action were done, we (the community) could recover from such a bleak-sounding fate.

If is fine and all but the catch is they have demonstrated the opposite. They obviously want to maintain support for vanilla mods, and there's only one way that works.

14 minutes ago, warman2012 said:

Also, would your average Doom player really care about the distinction? Not really.

This is Doomworld, we are here precisely for the nitpicky details, that's why this forum has lasted for as long as it has because there's always been something to analyse and discuss.

Edited January 18, 2020 by Edward850

[warman2012]

7 minutes ago, Edward850 said:

I'm not sure what the point is of discussing hypotheticals that nobody could prove could occur, and in fact are unlikely to occur for reasons stated in this thread. 

One, this could in fact occur in the realm of coding. Code something well enough, and the result you say could not happen could in fact be implemented. Putting that tidbit I just mentioned aside, the point is more of a morale boost for your more emotionally charged Doom fans. I am boosting their morale with this statement.

 

7 minutes ago, Edward850 said:

Not caring is not an excuse to not bother.

Once again, the distinction is moot and the reason to not bother with the distinction is A: does not serve a useful purpose to those persons who could care less when they download the file. B: is nothing more than a useless tangent to the overall meaning of my earlier post.

 

To the admins: I am done discussing this tangent.

Edited January 18, 2020 by warman2012

[Edward850]

9 minutes ago, warman2012 said:

One, this could in fact occur in the realm of coding. Code something well enough, and the result you say could not happen could in fact be implemented.

I'm extremely aware how programming works, this is a strange thing to state to me. However I'm not saying if it was possible to implement an encrypted container format or not (*), what I said was it's unlikely to happen because that's obviously not how Bethesda or id Software want it designed as that would be 110% unconventional to their end-goal.

 

(*Though the logistics of which in a platform which you can't hide data in because the end system has to be able to execute the code on a user level certainly presents some interesting implementation issues that might as well be a gigantic money pit and a waste of time.)

Edited January 18, 2020 by Edward850

[seed]

5 hours ago, warman2012 said:

Tl,dr: Doom's code is out there, no one can stop the modding scene or get rid of the iwads.

 

Based on what I am seeing, I will say this. Even if Bethesda does lock the iwads behind a Unity compressed file wall or if there are extreme edits to Doom in the re-release, the game is essentially classified as quasi-abandonware. You can get an unmutilated copy on the net if you look hard enough. Even if Bethesda went on a witch-hunt and magically got rid of all sources of the iwads (which they can't), the code is GPLed and community works like Freedoom exist with the code necessary for a rebuild. Add to that the myriad of realm667 edited sprites and the iwads could be rebuilt if necessary.

 

The source code being GPLed and being readily available has nothing to do with the distribution of the games, and it does not contain the games themselves. Info about what a source code is.

 

And Doom classic, with all those re-releases happening, could not be farther from abandonware status, be that in a quasi sense or not. The fact that you can get it from illegitimate sources means nothing, the game is otherwise still commercially available and as a result, that translates into piracy. At worst, your best bet would be applying a patch that restores the altered content if, by absurd, the OG IWADs would vanish.

 

Also using Freedom to essentially rebuild the game is a dangerous thing to do. Something somewhat similar to that was attempted recently with a mod, and guess what, it got a cease-and-desist.

Edited January 18, 2020 by seed

[Cacodemon345]

Quasi means "seemingly, apparently but not really", AFAIK.

[Gez]

7 hours ago, warman2012 said:

You can get an unmutilated copy on the net if you look hard enough.

I'd like to encourage people to talk about the IWAD patchers that exist instead of hinting at warez. Yes I know it's simpler to download a file than to have to fire up three neurons to figure out how to use an IWAD patcher. But it's a lot less illegal to use a patcher.

[seed]

4 minutes ago, Gez said:

I'd like to encourage people to talk about the IWAD patchers that exist instead of hinting at warez. Yes I know it's simpler to download a file than to have to fire up three neurons to figure out how to use an IWAD patcher. But it's a lot less illegal to use a patcher.

 

Gotcha :p

 

2 hours ago, seed said:

At worst, your best bet would be applying a patch that restores the altered content if, by absurd, the OG IWADs would vanish.

 

[Orchid87]

Lmao, people were okay with shooting nazis in Doom for years, but of course in 2020 it suddenly becomes problematic. Seems that some people here would support pulling Wolfenstein games from the stores because someone might find them offensive. What a clown world we live in.

[Gez]

The nazis themselves aren't changed, so I don't know what you're on about.

 

It's the textures used in a couple of secret levels that had a little bit of a cosmetic change. There are three points here:

• It's possible to be okay with both sets of textures. Accepting the new doesn't mean rejecting the old.
• The change does not actually impact gameplay experience at all. The textures are still recognizable enough.
• The original game, unchanged, is still available on GOG.com and Steam.

So perhaps lay off the hyperbole? There are better things to pull a temper tantrum over.

Edited January 19, 2020 by Gez

[P41R47]

I just wish Bethesda takes Hell 2 Pay and Perdition's Gate out of copyright limbo and make them public again... if they are free add-on, better, but i really like for this to happend.
Hell2Pay is an underrated masterpiece and Perdition's Gate, too.

[Grizzly]

21 hours ago, Orchid87 said:

Lmao, people were okay with shooting nazis in Doom for years, but of course in 2020 it suddenly becomes problematic.

 

The german laws wrt: Nazi stuff have existed since 1945. This is not a new phenomenon, and in fact it's slowly being more reduced now (what with Germany saying that games can be art and as such can be exempt from the "no nazis" law). Wolfenstein 3D was banned from sale in Germany since it was released. Check out the old webpage for Wolf3d!

Quote

NOTE TO GERMAN RESIDENTS: Please note that we are legally prohibited by German law from selling this item to any address in Germany. If you order this, your order will be cancelled. Thank you.

21 hours ago, Orchid87 said:

What a clown world we live in.

Interesting that you would go Honkler on us in this thread >.>

Edited January 20, 2020 by Grizzly

[funduke]

Wolfenstein 3D (and Spear of Destiny) is no longer on the german index anymore, just like the US version of DooM II.

Look here:

https://www.schnittberichte.com/news.php?ID=15282

https://www.schnittberichte.com/svds.php?Page=Indizierungen&Kat=Streichungen#liste-aller-listenstreichungen

 

Greetings
Funduke

Edited January 20, 2020 by funduke

[CorianderCastor]

I, myself, wouldn't mind a two-way patch between bfg and new 2020 iwads.