Why are Doom 2 maps so much more unique than Doom 1?

[Optimus]

I am just curious from a level design perspective, even if I kinda know the possible answers.

But is it because there is a genuine limitation (less unique textures) or is it because people try to mimic the original style?

 

I was thinking about this after playing Shotgun Symphony, which indeed was kinda different and more unique in it's design than most Doom 1 megawads I've played. Still, you can see the familiar startan textures and all that which makes it Doom 1, the monsters are limited, but it seems like the creators tried to make some more interesting and bigger areas than usual. Don't get me wrong, I sometimes enjoy playing yet another Doom 1 megawad that looks like episode 1 look alike, but I am curious whether it's the texture limitations or attitudes that makes most Doom 1 maps look not as unique and memorable as Doom 2 megawads.

 

Any other good Doom 1 map or megawad that kinda goes it's own way?

[Chris Hansen]

My 2 cents on the topic...

 

For me it's mostly related to attitude. I guess I could make an Ult. Doom map that looks and plays more differently than the iwad upon it's based. But I just love the style and gameplay of those Ult. Doom maps too much to really venture into more unknown territories, so to speak. And I guess that if I really want to make something completely different to Ult. Doom I could always "just" make a Doom II map or a Doom II map with custom textures/flats. It's definitely not got anyting to do with texture limitations; it's an attitude thing.

 

It's an interesting question and one I asked myself not long ago actually. I started wondering why I always end up making Ult. Doom levels that look and play more or less like the original game instead of heading into a completely different direction. I once made a map for Doom II (Gamma Labs) that looks like an episode 1 map, so I guess it could work the other way around. Maybe I should force myself to try it sometime, could be interesting. One thing's for sure: The selection of textures/flats won't be showstopper for me :)

[Nine Inch Heels]

If memory serves, Doom2 was a pretty "rushed" project compared to doom. As such some of its ideas come across kinda "brain stormy" and evoke a feeling of being "kinda rough" around the edges. So maybe it's that kind of "charme rustique" that gives doom2 a vibe of its own.

 

Then add all the new enemies to the mix, and it manages to differentiate itself quite substantially from doom, for better or for worse.

Edited January 19, 2020 by Nine Inch Heels

[dmslr]

16 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

Doom2 was a pretty "rushed" project compared to doom2

You mean compared to doom1?

[Nine Inch Heels]

fixed :P

[Faceman2000]

5 hours ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

If memory serves, Doom2 was a pretty "rushed" project compared to doom. As such some of its ideas come across kinda "brain stormy" and evoke a feeling of being "kinda rough" around the edges. So maybe it's that kind of "charme rustique" that gives doom2 a vibe of its own.

 

Then add all the new enemies to the mix, and it manages to differentiate itself quite substantially from doom, for better or for worse.

While true, I think OP meant Doom 2 pwads vs Doom 1 pwads haha.

 

And yeah, I think it’s an attitude thing. Doom 2 offers so much more freedom with textures and monster placement that there’s like little reason to make a Doom 1 pwads unless you were actively trying to emulate its style. It’s not that it can’t be done, just that there isn’t much reason to.

[Optimus]

6 hours ago, Chris Hansen said:

 

And I guess that if I really want to make something completely different to Ult. Doom I could always "just" make a Doom II map or a Doom II map with custom textures/flats.

That's a good point. If I want to make any kind of map without style restrictions I'd usually go to Doom 2 as it has way more textures themes and monsters, it's like Doom 1+. But if I was specifically hooked of making a Doom resembling style 1 map, I already made my mind and I end up using Doom 1 (unless one works on a Doom 2 megawad with some Doom 1 style map in mind). Usually if I don't want to bother changing the textures but I liked a specific sky (like the orange Ultimate Doom ep4) I'd end up Doom 1. Also if I prefer the simple shotgun against simple enemies battles then again I would be like "Ok,. I can scrap the big monsters and SSG and do the same on Doom 2 but you know what? I am going for Doom 1".

Edited January 19, 2020 by Optimus

[P41R47]

I think that mostly, it comes as a simply a choice of gameplay, as Doom 2 maps are a lot less atmospheric than U.Doom. Maybe its like @Nine Inch Heels said, being Doom2 a lot more rushed than the original game. And if you think that while playing it, you start to think its right, and the principal factor for arguing that is the sector light. Doom 2 is a lot more dark than Doom, probably to mitigate the rushed way of working and to not let the player see the low level of polish or details of the maps. Then comes Sandy in the equation. Sandy's philosophy to map is quite different than that of Romero. In Ep2 and Ep3 we saw how he departed from what Romero did, but still maintaning a proper degree of aesthetic similarity to make the game heterogeneous.
In the other hand, Doom 2 comes totally from the mind of Sandy Petersen, who brought the demon reality and its abstract style with him for Doom2, then, after seeing how easy it was to make totally mind blowing maps centered around the gameplay mechanics, Romero and McGee get on board.

To close my post, i think that the difference is the same as TNT and Plutonia. U.Doom and TNT give a lot of details to enviroment and a loose form of storytelling via the context and by level progression. Then we got Doom 2 and Plutonia, with a defined aesthetic but more centered in a gameplay oriented output and less coherent unfolding narrative.

Its a shame that Id didn't have the time to offer us an IWAD with this two styles mesh together, like Alien Vendetta, BTSX, Reverie, and No End in Sight, and possibly, every great mommunity awarded vanilla megawad, achieved. 

Edited January 20, 2020 by P41R47

[Chezza]

I'm going with the rushed theory as well in addition to trying to keep things fresh with new ideas.

 

Personally I like some of the quick gimmicky maps to change the pace.

Edited January 20, 2020 by Chezza

[Morpheus666]

I'm probably going to get burned but IMO i personally dislike Doom 2's Maps, (I've only ever played up until Level 6)

 

Reasons:

Doom 2 felt like playing a casual Slaughter map at times, (nothing wrong with that BUT) the sloppiness of how fast they shoved doom 2 out the door is blatantly obvious to me, it lacked the quirky "Soul" of Doom 1 in which rather then going full blown gun's blazing rampage, Doom 1 had a pace and the maps had a coherent "story line". Doom 3 kinda did something along those lines but (WE WON'T DISCUSS THAT ATM) Also call me a sucker for nostalgia (Doom 1 was the first "old" fps I've ever played)

Edited January 20, 2020 by Morpheus666

[Capellan]

As others have noted, Doom 2 has a substantially wider variety of textures and a much larger bestiary, which allows "stock" Doom 2 PWADs to be more diverse in visual style and gameplay then "stock" UDoom ones.

 

[Jaws In Space]

20 hours ago, Optimus said:

Any other good Doom 1 map or megawad that kinda goes it's own way?

Sinergy by Crunchynut, Base Ganyemed Complete by Khorus, & basically any Ultimate Doom wad by Nicholas Monti. They don't stray far from Doom in their texture usage, but as far as map layouts go they don't stick to that Knee Deep in the Dead style like the vast majority of Doom wads try to do.

 

I find that most Doom wads that are unique in style were made in 1994 & 1995, but even back then you had maps that tried to be just like Doom. Ultimate Doom was mostly ignored with few exceptions, such as 2002 A Doom Odyssey, until the release of Doom the Way Id Did. That wad really did usher in a new wave of Ultimate Doom wads that have been released pretty consistently since then. Most of the newer wads still emulate the style of the original Doom, but more often now I'm finding Doom wads that go in their own direction.

[Gez]

22 hours ago, Optimus said:

Any other good Doom 1 map or megawad that kinda goes it's own way?

REKKR

 

It's hard to have something that "kinda goes its own way" more than a full-blown TC, and REKKR is for for Doom 1.

 

There's also the Aliens TC for Doom 1, but despite the name it's kind of more of a partial conversion, as many assets are still recognizable as being from Doom, even if a bit edited.

[OldDoomer]

So I just wanted to preface that I've lurked DoomWorld now for over TWO DECADES and for your topic I finally decided to create an account so I could reply.  I'm not a procrastinator I swear...  I don't personally create DOOM maps.  I enjoy playing through what everyone else creates and I'm personally thankful so many people in 2020 continue to create new resources for such an incredibly old title.

 

The way I've seen the differentiation between DOOM 1 and DOOM 2 is like this.  DOOM 1 has what's a fairly decent narrative all things considered with a definitive player progression, both play-wise and visually.  The episodes in DOOM 1 progress tech base, onset of Hell, and then Hell proper, with a difficulty curve that continuously introduces changes in enemy usage and environment (ex: by the time you reach Hell, there are typically multiple sectors per level that will cause you pain that have to either be navigated or circumvented, with many of these not being present in the tech bases).  With that sort of narrative and environmental progression I feel it's only expected a larger mega WAD or similar level set would attempt to follow a similar suit, and in that vein DOOM 1 is arguably better suited.  For most non-single level WADs it's typically not best to introduce varying environments and spikes in difficulty within the same level, as you want the player to use each level to understand your design aesthetics & anticipated progression.  Dying at particular segments where levels go through a drastic change in environment and/or difficulty just isn't fun.

 

On the other side of the coin re: DOOM 2, personally I have always enjoyed playing DOOM 2 more.  The SS "upgrade" over the shotgun is always a standout and the expanded monster roster makes for more fighting dynamics and use.  Yet one thing I have always been consistently bugged about when playing is how much DOOM 2 doesn't actually do a good job at portraying the [small, compared to DOOM 1] narrative it's trying to push.  It's supposed to take place on Earth, but other than some sky textures and level names every level just kind of feels like... another 'onset of Hell' level; not quite Hell but not a tech base, with a weird mixture of both sprinkled in periodically.  Here I feel DOOM 2 level designs can be expressive because a mapper can just make another "DOOM 2 Level 1" level, or they can intermingle their levels against id's work.  DOOM 2 for myself in this sense hasn't really had a narrative as such, compared to the narrative that DOOM 1 portrays.  I did chuckle at another recent thread here in General that was making topic of how some of the buildings in DOOM 2 are not truly that far away from actual buildings.  I think had id seriously dedicated time to a more fleshed out DOOM 2 experience they could have at the very least added some 'Earth-y' textures and building scape.  Instead I just cannot get over the prominent dull brown-ish 'onset of Hell' feel that most all of DOOM 2 has.

 

I feel if I were someone who actually created maps and map sets for DOOM I would likely use DOOM 2, not only for the full roster of weapons, enemies, and items it grants, but also in that I can play off the sort of narrative-less dynamics DOOM 2 has.

 

In regards to the dynamics between DOOM 1 and DOOM 2 itself, I remember vividly when DOOM 2 came out I tended to play it rather than return to DOOM 1 (I had purchased Ultimate DOOM by this point, and eventually purchased the Depths of DOOM compilation when it released for the heck of it).  Like was said a ways above most of the community had seemingly moved on to DOOM 2 by that point, and the whole experimenting with something that "wasn't DOOM" had a lot of it's heyday early on in that 1994-1995 period, before reverting to switch and key hunts to then be followed by hub design and revolve full circle to more unique WAD designs that were truly "unique" and not just unique in level concept.

Edited January 20, 2020 by OldDoomer

[Wagi]

I think one of the things missing from the discussion of thematic consistency is that the texturing in Episode 3 is downright random sometimes, some of the biggest offenders being E3M4 and E3M5. Hellish marble brick walls with office lights overhead, with office tile floors, or techbase lights shining overhead?

[Kappes Buur]

"Why are Doom 2 maps so much more unique than Doom 1?"

 

How much more unique can more unique be than unique?

Just curious.

 

Every map is unique, unless 2 authors present the same map.

Then one map would be unique and the other plagiarized.

:)

Edited January 21, 2020 by Kappes Buur

[seed]

Probably because it kinda dumped the sense of place that Ultimate Doom had, instead choosing to take a very gameplay-centric approach to its design. Certainly, the locations of some maps are still fairly evocative, but others, not so much, not to mention gimmicky levels like Barrels O' Fun.

 

But this worked in the game's favor, as despite not being as beautiful as UDoom was, it's much more fun to play than it, and there's also the expanded bestiary to add even more to the fun factor and replayability. Also, unlike others I love Doom 2's maps, though I've found myself revisiting the OG Doom more often lately. I don't think its maps are rushed either considering the limited tools available at the time. A bit unpolished? Sure, but not rushed.

[Optimus]

Just realized I phrased it not well enough in the thread title, meaning the difference styles of user megaWADs not original IWADs, but anyway thanks and one or two of the Doom 1 suggestions I haven't played.

[adamadam]

Doom and Doom 2 were the same game, you could take the .exe file from one and use it to play the other game.  Can also think of it like the original Doom is a subset of Doom 2, anything that can be created in the original can be created in Doom 2 but not the other way around - so if you're going to make custom levels, might as well just go Doom 2.