DoomerWorld made me stop caring about what "Classic" fans think of Doom Eternal.

[Mr. Freeze]

Is it fair to say I disagree with a direction the new series is taking, or is that making me a "hater" or "troll"? Just wondering. 

[Redneckerz]

As a news editor of games myself (including Eternal) i find the whole ''wars'' and ''criticizing'' aspect to be utterly boring. The whole concept of telling a random person you will never meet that his game or console sucks as compared to the superior alternative (Whatever that is) is so trite.

 

I understand this kind of wasting time replaced knitting of the old times (when that was hip and funky). However, knitting, if done for some time, has a result, namely a product like a shawl, a scarf, a sweater.

 

Telling others that your opinion matters more than others and you will have to let them know (Especially when it comes to gaming) has no purpose but to waste your time, my time and time's time.

 

I guess me approaching Boomer age has something to do with it and i don't make YouTube video's posting that very same opinion in video form, but l prefer my sanity check to be somewhere else and have meaningful conversation.

 

TLDR:

5 hours ago, BluePineapple72 said:

I stopped caring about what other people thought about the things I like/dislike a long time ago. Much healthier for my blood pressure

 

[seed]

My bullshit meter is off the charts again it seems.

 

A lot of arguments against D2016 aren't even valid, such as the glory kill mechanic - news flash for you, this existed long before Brutal Doom, originating from the old Doom 4 when it was called "synchronized execution" (or something like that). New mapsets are not even remotely targeting BD or are made with it in mind, wtf. Also slaughterwads aren't a new phenomenon - Alien Vendetta and Hell Revealed would like a word with you. And some of the hard mapsets out there aren't even slaughter oriented.

 

And people can like whatever they want, or hate it, but if you want to criticize something at least get your facts straight. Doom as a series needs to change and evolve, recycling old concepts and ideas will lead nowhere, if you cannot accept its change in direction, well, stick to classic Doom and its wads. Good thing most developers don't target for "old timers" as their main audience, it is a mistake to cater to people who refuse change and are stuck in the past.

[Archvile Hunter]

3 hours ago, warman2012 said:

-

You have every right to be sad/disappointed about what the current ID Software is doing, but lashing out against others for enjoying NuDoom is immature. Sadly, it seems more and more commonplace to shit on whatever people are enjoying nowadays.

[Stale Meat]

55 minutes ago, warman2012 said:

I admittedly have no hard evidence for this last point, but in some ways, I believe Brutal Doom has already affected mapping with harder mapsets like slaughterwads and tougher mapsets like Ancient Aliens. Sure seems funny to me I can complete mapsets like AA and Super Mayhem 17 quite easily with BD or its cousin Project Brutality, but any other mod or straight vanilla, its tough as nails. Could be me, could be something else. Makes me wonder if BD was a design goal for these mappers.

Out of all the takes you have made, this is easily the most nonsense and asinine one. You seem to be saying that the reason these specific Wads (and I assume others?) are tough is because the map makers decided to 'balance' the difficulty around Brutal Doom, with the proof being...how much easier Brutal Doom makes playing the wads?

This is completely ignoring how despite being 'balanced' around it, Brutal Doom/Project Brutality/whatever is not only never mentioned in the handy Readme's included with these Wads, but is also not even included inside or along the Wads proper despite apparently having a big chunk of design influence made around it/them. Hell, even with the specific case of Ancient Aliens I would argue the mere presence of Dehacked enemies in the monster roster goes against the notion of these wads being designed around Brutal Doom simply because such enemies wouldn't be necessary if the levels were meant to be played with the changed up monster roster of Brutal Doom.

As for the rest of your thoughts on how Doom Eternal is going to change the classic Doom landscape forever™️, this kind of alarmist thinking has a pretty long history of popping up within the community while also never quite happening. Even on this very site you can read how people were pretty sure ports like zdoom were gonna render the classic megawads a thing of the past. And while there is a pretty vibrant set of maps and map makers for advanced source ports, it is clear as day that vanilla-style mapping is still alive and well (you could even argue that if anything many of the best vanilla-style megawads are post-Alien Vendetta). So if the advent of all the various source ports of the game with all the fancy features and shiny bits on them didn't end up killing vanilla Doom mapping, I really don't see Doom Eternal doing it.

[Stale Meat]

37 minutes ago, Mr. Freeze said:

Is it fair to say I disagree with a direction the new series is taking, or is that making me a "hater" or "troll"? Just wondering. 

As long as you aren't lashing out at other people, it is perfectly fine to not agree with or even like how Eternal/the new series as a whole is going. Doom has a lot of fans and a lot of 'flavors' with how it has been portrayed over the years. Some people not having a liking for how they are doing the series right now is inevitable, so I wouldn't take someone not liking the new game as someone not being a 'True Fan' or anything like that.

[jazzmaster9]

1 hour ago, Mr. Freeze said:

Is it fair to say I disagree with a direction the new series is taking, or is that making me a "hater" or "troll"? Just wondering. 

unless you claim that Doom Eternal is going to kill Classic Doom and treat it like some kind of Purist killing plague then no, it doesnt make you a hater or a troll, just a person who knows what he likes and dislikes.

 

I have my own gripes with Doom 2016 as well but I wont run around every Doom 2016 post and scream how much i hate the Plasma Gun and how it looks like Mario or something.

also an amazing game like Super Mario Bros is probably the last thing I will compare to anything I consider Bad.

Edited January 24, 2020 by jazzmaster9

[mrthejoshmon]

Has the Boomerworld joke been made yet or can I use it?

[Urdak5891]

If i worried about what other ppl think I would never leave the house.

[Doomkid]

9 hours ago, BetaMarine said:

I have noticed this behavior to be pretty common in "Classic" Doom fans. Whenever I see them complain about the new games, its always about how "toxic" new fans are or "You like new Doom game you are stupid" kind of stuff. As if to compensate for the dying interest in "Classic" Doom games, they spin this same bullshit narrative that fans of the new Doom games are just idiots somehow.

I don’t get this. Firstly because I’ve literally never seen the behaviour described, at least not on Doomworld, but also because it’s completely circular “he said, she said” silliness that comes across more as an excuse to ignore the critiques that all so-called Classic Doomers have, just because some of them are morons.

 

”I have noticed this behavior to be pretty common in “modern” Doom fans. Whenever I see them complain about the old games, its always about how "toxic" old fans are or "You like old Doom game you are stupid" kind of stuff.”

 

I could state this verbatim and, ironically, the attitude of the OP would actually prove me right - at least in this instance. You have to see the problem I have with this thread now, surely?

 

Most people - at least I’d like to hope - don’t go judging millions of people and discarding their opinions based on the behaviour of a few assholes. People are going to dislike things you like sometimes, and are going to be dicks sometimes. Using that as some kind of limp, flaccid excuse for brazenly painting all Classic Doomers as a bunch of knuckle-dragging fuckwits as you did just seems like pointlessly divisive behaviour. It kinda strikes me as someone talking out of both sides of their ass, because you’re decrying such behaviour while also engaging in it..

 

Oh and, this is another topic altogether so I don’t know why the two have been conflated, but “dying interest” in Classic Doom? Is this a joke? Seriously, you have to stuff your head in the dirt to believe this. There are Classic Doom related speedrun / history / etc videos uploaded mere months ago on YouTube with views in the millions.. The collective weekly downloads of source ports are in the tens of thousands.. On this site alone, there are like 10 goddamn wads released per day, probably far more when you consider the greater internet. I’m sorry but I’ve watched the numbers over the years very closely and to say Classic Doom is on “the up & up” is putting it very lightly.

 

I’m sorry for being kind of douchey in my tone here, but can you honestly blame me? The thread essentially asserts that a demographic I belong to are just a bunch of worthless assholes best left ignored. Am I supposed to respond to that like it makes me happy or something? 

 

Let me put it this way: I have no intention of writing off all New Doomers, just because some of them are going to come in here and brazenly declare that Old Doomers are just shitty people.

 

EDIT: Just to be crystal clear - I love the Doom series. Yeah, 1 and 2 were my favourites, but I thought 4 was awesome and I’m eagerly awaiting 5. All this infighting between Doom fans.. Pretty disheartening. Not surprising though. Doom taught us infighting, after all!

Edited January 24, 2020 by Doomkid

[BetaMarine]

15 minutes ago, Doomkid said:

I don’t get this. Firstly because I’ve literally never seen the behaviour described, at least not on Doomworld, but also because it’s completely circular “he said, she said” silliness that comes across more as an excuse to ignore the critiques that all so-called Classic Doomers have, just because some of them are morons.

 

”I have noticed this behavior to be pretty common in “modern” Doom fans. Whenever I see them complain about the old games, its always about how "toxic" old fans are or "You like old Doom game you are stupid" kind of stuff.”

 

I could state this verbatim and, ironically, the attitude of the OP would actually prove me right - at least in this instance. You have to see the problem I have with this thread now, surely?

 

Most people - at least I’d like to hope - don’t go judging millions of people and discarding their opinions based on the behaviour of a few assholes. People are going to dislike things you like sometimes, and are going to be dicks sometimes. Using that as some kind of limp, flaccid excuse for brazenly painting all Classic Doomers as a bunch of knuckle-dragging fuckwits as you did just seems like pointlessly divisive behaviour. It kinda strikes me as someone taking out of both sides of their ass, because you’re decrying such behaviour while also engaging in it..

 

Oh and, this is another topic altogether so I don’t know why the two have been conflated, but “dying interest” in Classic Doom? Is this a joke? Seriously, you have to stuff your head in the dirt to believe this. There are Classic Doom related speedrun / history / etc videos uploaded mere months ago on YouTube with views in the millions.. The collective weekly downloads of source ports are in the tens of thousands.. On this site alone, there are like 10 goddamn wads released per day, probably far more when you consider the greater internet. I’m sorry but I’ve watched the numbers over the years very closely and to say Classic Doom is on “the up & up” is putting it very lightly.

 

I’m sorry for being kind of douchey in my tone here, but can you honestly blame me? The thread essentially asserts that a demographic I belong to are just a bunch of worthless assholes best left ignored. Am I supposed to respond to that like it makes me happy or something? 

 

Let me put it this way: I have no intention of writing off all New Doomers, just because some of them are going to come in here and brazenly declare that Old Doomers are just shitty people.

 

EDIT: Just to be crystal clear - I love the Doom series. Yeah, 1 and 2 were my favourites, but I thought 4 was awesome and I’m eagerly awaiting 5. All this infighting between Doom fans.. Pretty disheartening. Not surprising though. Doom taught us infighting, after all!

Yeah i agree actually, sorry for my shitty post. I guess I have become the very thing i swore to destroy, a self-destructive asshole. I'm not gonna defend my post because frankly, It was not well thought out at all. So yeah, sorry...

Edited January 24, 2020 by BetaMarine

[BetaMarine]

2 hours ago, Mr. Freeze said:

Is it fair to say I disagree with a direction the new series is taking, or is that making me a "hater" or "troll"? Just wondering. 

Not really, there are some directions I disagree with. The whole "weak-point" system doesn't really take much skill, just move mouse left,right or up.

[BetaMarine]

1 hour ago, mrthejoshmon said:

Has the Boomerworld joke been made yet or can I use it?

Nope, you can use it free of charge ;)

[NoXion]

Classic Doom has been around for just over 25 years. That's a bloody quarter-century! It's only a few years younger than I am. The community is still going strong and producing excellent material. It's not going to be disappearing any time soon.

Will the release of Eternal lead to an influx of newcomers whose first impressions of the franchise as a whole will be initially based entirely on that game? Of course. But those people won't be the ones making maps and WADs for classic Doom, certainly not at first. To be successful at mapping for Doom, you need familiarise yourself with how the original game works, as well as with the peculiarities of the engine. Otherwise you'll be going nowhere in a community where the bar of quality has been set stratospherically high by literal decades worth of WADs to pick and choose from.

To lay my cards on the table, hardly a week goes by for me without me playing oldksool Doom, and I'm greatly anticipating Doom Eternal. For me they are different things; classic Doom is where the best of the community can shine through, while Eternal is shaping up to be the massive and sprawling modern game, with a budget of millions made by professionals. I don't blame Hugo and Marty and the rest of the team for wanting to go all-out on the second incarnation of Doom in modern gaming; they were kind of finding their feet in Doom 2016, but now they can really cut loose creatively.

[VanaheimRanger]

1 hour ago, Doomkid said:

All the right things!

Man, I wish I could articulate my thoughts on this level.

[Doomkid]

1 hour ago, BetaMarine said:

Yeah i agree actually, sorry for my shitty post. I guess I have become the very thing i swore to destroy, a self-destructive asshole. I'm not gonna defend my post because frankly, It was not well thought out at all. So yeah, sorry...

I meant no disrespect, and I’m sorry for the somewhat assy tone of my post. Thanks for understanding. I’m not gonna edit my post to hide my initially douchey tone, but I just want to say thanks for reading and understanding. I absolutely appreciate that!

[D4NUK1]

Yeah i see it, and it's make me also less care classic doom as it's because if it not vainilla then it's not Doom. There it's that Elitism on some post and i really dislike it. Im also love the new dirrection of DOOM Eternal as remind me somehow of a Modern version of Metroid Prime Series with Doom fast paced combat.

[Dragonfly]

7 hours ago, warman2012 said:

I for one hate the Baron of Hell replacement in Eviternity and cannot change that and the pistol rate of fire. Does anyone think we want to have this forced upon us for Eviternity or any mapset for that matter? 

 

Yes I blame the new doom too, I 100% added these features in Eviternity and FORCED YOU TO USE THEM because of Doom 2016, and now Doom Eternal is COPYING ME and didn't even credit me!!!!!!!!!!1!!!

 

Spoiler

The above is entirely satire. I made Eviternity the way I wanted to because it plays the way I, the lead developer of the mapset, wanted it to play. D16 had absolutely no influence on my mapping or modding decisions, but rather was influenced by the fantastic projects of my fellow Doom Mappers and my own inspiration sources, such as IRL locations.

 

Doom's survived literal decades of video gaming trends and subgenres at this point. Of course these things will influence some projects but it'll never change what is fundamentally Doom. Besides, we're living in a resurgence of Vanilla projects, with the likes of DTWID, BTSX etc paving the way to show how great Vanilla can be. If that's your thing, go play those and similar projects. If things like Eviternity, Ancient Aliens etc as you listed isn't to your taste, don't play them. Really simple concept, I reckon even you could manage to grasp it!

 

tl;dr - Grow up, take off the tin foil hat, and move on lol.

 

[jazzmaster9]

I mean its really hard to take someone's criticism seriously they try to enforce their views with mapping Revisionism and baseless hypothesis.

[Doomkid]

5 minutes ago, Dragonfly said:

 

So what you’re saying is, you think Classic Doom is shit and your endgame is to transform it into Doom4 from within, by way of heading projects like Eviternity?

 

I always knew it. Just glad to hear you finally FESS UP!

[Cacodemon345]

Another thing that I would like to point out is that the lives system was planned in classic Doom, but was scrapped. Now 26-years later, when it's getting implemented in Doom Eternal, people are complaining, which is actually laughable for me.

 

Also, let Doom Eternal be Doom Eternal in terms of aesthetics, not Quake 1.

[Linguica]

8 hours ago, warman2012 said:

I for one hate the Baron of Hell replacement in Eviternity and cannot change that and the pistol rate of fire. Does anyone think we want to have this forced upon us for Eviternity or any mapset for that matter?

 

What an ironic thing to say since you COULD easily edit this to be whatever you wanted if you took the time to learn how to use the high quality freeware Doom modding tools that others have developed for your benefit. Doom Eternal on the other hand has no mod support at all so you better like what they give you because you can't do anything about it.

[Cacodemon345]

Wasn't there plans to release modding tools much later after Doom Eternal was released? Or did it get scrapped?

[seed]

15 minutes ago, Cacodemon345 said:

Another thing that I would like to point out is that the lives system was planned in classic Doom, but was scrapped. Now 26-years later, when it's getting implemented in Doom Eternal, people are complaining, which is actually laughable for me.

 

Tbh when I originally saw them last year the way these items looked like was a bit too Mario-esque to me - I could almost hear the Mario theme in my head rofl.

 

But indeed, this was originally meant to be part of the OG Doom, or if it wasn't, it was an artifact from Wolf. I just wonder how exactly is it going to play like in the actual game though (I've heard Hugo talking about them, so that's not it).

Edited January 24, 2020 by seed

[snapshot]

.

Edited February 12, 2020 by sluggard

[reflex17]

I'm not the biggest fan of the newer Doom games, imo they deviate so far from the gameplay of the originals that I think they should have been called something else. The new features like glory kills, cinematics, scripted sequences etc. add a lot, though in my mind anything at all that stops the player in their tracks starts to step away from the original design philosophy from the first games. I say this knowing full well with respect that the devs can do whatever they want. Who knows if id might've added these features in the first games if the situation were different.

 

Nobody wants to make the same game or map over and over. Even if you don't want to sometimes you'll add new stuff in just to try it or break the mold and expand the idea. I still think it could have been more faithful to the originals, especially with technology now that lets one design games in a way with few limitations. There are tons of people who enjoy the new things added in and think they make the game fun. If you pay for a game or whatever and you have a good time with it, more power to you.

 

As far as game/level modifications go, modern games are maybe a little less moddable than they were in the past, the games are more complex but just the same there are more powerful dev tools to create them. Dev tools take time to develop (lol) and even if they are released with the game they are usually still run through a more rigorous debugging process if they will be given to a public that will then be able to share their work with the community. Nobody really cares if the level editor for your single-player only game breaks once in a blue moon but if it's a massive multiplayer title, then that blue moon becomes once or many times a day. I dislike the idea of snapmap but I can see what some of their parameters were when they decided to release a truncated form of an editor.

 

If anyone wants to go ahead and get a hack tool for Diablo so I can import any amount of gear that's not possible on the RNG table, I'd really like to try and use that hack program on Wing Commander 3 featuring John Rhys-Davies and Mark Hammill. When I can't get my Godly Plate of the Whale to appear on the hull my ship I'll be sure to report back here to the forums and ask why it doesn't work. Thanks.

 

 

Edited January 24, 2020 by reflex17

[Skootroot]

I don't really like the path the DOOM series is taking too and I kind of see why they're mad but they need to chill the fuck out

Edited January 24, 2020 by Skootroot

[Doom_Dude]

On 1/24/2020 at 2:30 AM, warman2012 said:

The art aspect comes into play with such instances like custom monsters in new mapsets like Eviternity being coded in and vanilla players cannot easily change the mapset to be more of what they want because they do not know how to code effectively to remove the changes. I for one hate the Baron of Hell replacement in Eviternity and cannot change that and the pistol rate of fire. Does anyone think we want to have this forced upon us for Eviternity or any mapset for that matter?

 

I've been playing video games since Pong and then when things became modded, not once did I think 'this is being forced upon me'. Nothing is being forced upon anybody. That's just silly.

 

Dragonfly. He forced me to.... he made me... please nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo! *tries to dig through the wall to the exit*

Edited January 25, 2020 by Doom_Dude

[Tartlman]

9 hours ago, warman2012 said:

The art aspect comes into play with such instances like custom monsters in new mapsets like Eviternity being coded in and vanilla players cannot easily change the mapset to be more of what they want because they do not know how to code effectively to remove the changes. I for one hate the Baron of Hell replacement in Eviternity and cannot change that and the pistol rate of fire. Does anyone think we want to have this forced upon us for Eviternity or any mapset for that matter? Now imagine this being the norm 5 years or even 10 years from now. Hell, it could happen a year from now. We do not know.

It's not like there aren't a billion mapsets that don't have modified weapons and monsters, you know.

[Pegleg]

Maps and mapsets with a "classic" feel aren't going anywhere, regardless of how successful Doom Eternal is.

 

When ports were released that allowed you to play a map with more than 128 visplanes visible and not crash the program, did every map suddenly increase in complexity now that mappers could ignore the static limits? No. Many vanilla maps and mapsets that adhered to these static limits were still made and the "classic" feel endured.

 

When Boom came out, you could do things like conveyor belts and "scripted" events that were impossible with vanilla Doom. Did that spell the end of "classic" Doom? No.

 

When Quake came out, and you could do real 3D, was that the death knell for "classic" Doom? While it looked like it might be, Doom recovered.

 

When any of the various ports came out that incorporated OpenGL elements, was "classic" Doom dead and buried? Not in the slightest.

 

When Doom 3 came out, did everyone run out and start making dark mapsets that were more survival horror than high speed demon killing? No. "Classic" Doom survived.

 

When Brutal Doom arrived on the scene, did everyone abandon the mapsets they were working on and start making mapsets that relied on the Brutal Doom-specific things? They did not.

 

When Doom in Hexen or UDMF came along (and as they have advanced), was there an increase in people making mapsets featuring slopes, 3D floors, dynamic lights, ACS scripting, etc.? Yes. Were these features completely different from "classic" vanilla feel. More or less. Did people stop making "classic" mapsets? Absolutely not.

 

Even now, with Doom 2016 having been released and Doom Eternal on the door step and powerful map editors that allow you to manipulate the advanced features of UDMF with relative ease and ports that take full advantage of all these features, what have we seen over the past 12 months? A number of vanilla projects have been released or are in development that could be described as having a "classic" feel; here is a sampling:

 

1000 Lines Community Project

Akeldama

Infernew

Oops! All Techbase

Perdition's Gate: Resurgence

Rowdy Rudy Returns

Switcheroom 2

TNT: Devilution

 

This doesn't even include the limit-removing projects that could still be described as having a "classic" feel. And it's only projects from Doomworld; I didn't even consider projects that may have been formulated on Doomer Boards or someone's Discord.

 

My overall point is that "classic" Doom feel isn't going anywhere. It's still popular. The community is still producing that kind of material for people that want to play it, and doing so at the same time that the community is producing material that goes beyond the original source material and "feels" different. There is nothing wrong with either approach. At the end of the day, that which does not grow, dies. This community is strong and vibrant precisely because of the change and the breadth of mapping and playing styles that exist. And that's not changing anytime soon.