Remember when Doom was SIMPLE?

[Foebane72]

Now see, this is what I'm talking about! A whole guide to how to play Doom Eternal, taking up over half an hour, and it's the most complicated-sounding game I've ever heard of, not to mention the intense combat I'm not sure I'd be able to handle. It's been described as Chess, and guess what? I've never completed a game of Chess in my life, I always got baffled by the whole Check thing.

 

I mean, I didn't mind Doom 2016 being slightly more complicated, but this is ridiculously over-the-top!

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwnJvK2zGjE

 

[Nine Inch Heels]

22 minutes ago, Foebane72 said:

it's the most complicated-sounding game I've ever heard of

Have you ever seen Final Fantasy 5's job system, or the list of "mixes" the chemist job in the same game can do? And you wanna tell us that being aware of one's surroundings while knowing what to point your god damn gun at is "complicated"?

 

24 minutes ago, Foebane72 said:

not to mention the intense combat I'm not sure I'd be able to handle

Don't buy it then. You already said you'd rather watch a let's play. So watch that god damn let's play and stop whining already.

 

25 minutes ago, Foebane72 said:

It's been described as Chess, and guess what? I've never completed a game of Chess in my life, I always got baffled by the whole Check thing.

Also, dude, just because one person uses the word chess (and said person probably also never played chess in their life, fyi) you're throwing a tantrum here, because oh dear lord, imagine actually playing a game on more than 2 brain cells at a time. What's the world coming to, if suddenly some thinking is required to finish a game? We can't possibly have that. Games all need to be playable without actually paying attention. Fuck, I prefer to play games while cooking dinner, because cooking dinner makes the otherwise boring games a lot more challenging.

[Super Mighty G]

1 hour ago, Foebane72 said:

Now see, this is what I'm talking about! A whole guide to how to play Doom Eternal, taking up over half an hour, and it's the most complicated-sounding game I've ever heard of, not to mention the intense combat I'm not sure I'd be able to handle. It's been described as Chess, and guess what? I've never completed a game of Chess in my life, I always got baffled by the whole Check thing.

 

I mean, I didn't mind Doom 2016 being slightly more complicated, but this is ridiculously over-the-top!

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwnJvK2zGjE

 

This attitude is the reason games have gradually started treating players like idiots over time. You don't get Chess? You should probably stick to Call of Duty then. 

Edited February 15, 2020 by Super Mighty G

[Asking4Id]

15 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

And you wanna tell us that being aware of one's surroundings while knowing what to point your god damn gun at is "complicated"?

Aiming is simple. Skillfully aiming is complicated.

[Foebane72]

"Have you ever seen Final Fantasy 5's job system, or the list of "mixes" the chemist job in the same game can do? And you wanna tell us that being aware of one's surroundings while knowing what to point your god damn gun at is "complicated"?"

I never bothered with RPGs like Final Fantasy, I find them complicated, too. As for the aiming, you know there's a lot more to it than that, the video says so. The way I see it, to beat the demons you have to have the right weapon and the right type of ammo for every demon encounter. It sounds very much to me like a pattern-matching game like Simon Says. Sod that shit.

 

"Don't buy it then. You already said you'd rather watch a let's play. So watch that god damn let's play and stop whining already."

No-one's forcing you to reply to my threads. Do you feel you have to respond to every notification?

 

"What's the world coming to, if suddenly some thinking is required to finish a game? We can't possibly have that."

The prior Doom games didn't need "some thinking" to play, that was part of their appeal. It seems to me that Doom is morphing into something else, so why call it Doom anymore??

 

"This attitude is the reason games have gradually started treating players like idiots over time. You don't get Chess? You should probably stick to Call of Duty then."

I don't play Call of Duty, I think it's dull and repetitive. And I have tried it, the original Modern Warfare, and got bored of it very quickly.

 

 

[ZeroTheEro]

23 minutes ago, Foebane72 said:

I never bothered with RPGs like Final Fantasy, I find them complicated, too. As for the aiming, you know there's a lot more to it than that, the video says so. The way I see it, to beat the demons you have to have the right weapon and the right type of ammo for every demon encounter. It sounds very much to me like a pattern-matching game like Simon Says. Sod that shit.

You can moan and whine about the complications all you want, and despite how overwhelming you see the guide you posted, it's not the definite, end-all-be-all way to play it. You control the buttons you press, you play at your own pace. You want to hammer at them the long way, then bite them.

 

23 minutes ago, Foebane72 said:

The prior Doom games didn't need "some thinking" to play, that was part of their appeal. It seems to me that Doom is morphing into something else, so why call it Doom anymore??

 

You mean thinking as a casual player.
 

The prior Doom games have 'some thinking' in the sense of for example "how do I tackle this ambush if I pick this up?" "do I have enough ammo for everything in the way?" "should I use this on that now?" "should I keep this health just in case I muck up somewhere?" "Where's the ammo cache I saw last time?" so on an so forth.

 

24 minutes ago, Foebane72 said:

I don't play Call of Duty, I think it's dull and repetitive. And I have tried it, the original Modern Warfare, and got bored of it very quickly.

 

And yet you call things that's there to mix things up overwhelming.

 

Edited February 15, 2020 by ZeroTheEro

[whatup876]

You can always try the easiest difficulty settings.

[seed]

Or just don't play the game at all if it's that hostile to you...

 

Seriously, these last arguments you've brought up are nothing but whining about how the game isn't what you want it to be and how it evolved rather than staying the same forever. Also lol at the idea that the older games were more or less braindead, mindless shooters when they required thinking and methodic approaches quite often.

 

I'm not trying to be overly defensive of the game but seriously, these aren't objective flaws and these "complaints" are little more than whining about the game's design decisions. You can always stick to classic Doom and other games y'know.

Edited February 15, 2020 by seed

[Nine Inch Heels]

49 minutes ago, Foebane72 said:

No-one's forcing you to reply to my threads. Do you feel you have to respond to every notification?

...Asks the guy who replies to everybody who replies to his bullshit... Do you seriously think people didn't already notice that you're simply trolling at this point?

 

49 minutes ago, Foebane72 said:

The prior Doom games didn't need "some thinking" to play, that was part of their appeal. It seems to me that Doom is morphing into something else, so why call it Doom anymore??

If you want something brain-dead, play the old WADs id made way back when and live happily ever after. Sorry, but shooting galleries are out of fashion, deal with it. Heck, if you want something easy, build your own maps, and play those. Stop bitching about something you yourself have not yet played, and put some ice on that raging hate-boner you get each time you see modern gameplay somewhere, because it's here to stay whether you like it or not.

[Super Mighty G]

1 hour ago, Foebane72 said:

"What's the world coming to, if suddenly some thinking is required to finish a game? We can't possibly have that."

The prior Doom games didn't need "some thinking" to play, that was part of their appeal. It seems to me that Doom is morphing into something else, so why call it Doom anymore??

News flash: That was 25 years ago. Gaming as a whole has changed a lot since then. Since you seem to be unfamiliar with how gaming has evolved in general you should just stick to antiquated titles because this game isn't for you.

 

1 hour ago, Foebane72 said:

"This attitude is the reason games have gradually started treating players like idiots over time. You don't get Chess? You should probably stick to Call of Duty then."

I don't play Call of Duty, I think it's dull and repetitive. And I have tried it, the original Modern Warfare, and got bored of it very quickly.

Ironic.

[Foebane72]

If you don't like my "whining" about this, then get a moderator to close this thread. Then we can all live in peace.

 

[jazzmaster9]

3 hours ago, Foebane72 said:

Now see, this is what I'm talking about! A whole guide to how to play Doom Eternal, taking up over half an hour, and it's the most complicated-sounding game I've ever heard of, not to mention the intense combat I'm not sure I'd be able to handle. It's been described as Chess, and guess what? I've never completed a game of Chess in my life, I always got baffled by the whole Check thing.

 

I mean, I didn't mind Doom 2016 being slightly more complicated, but this is ridiculously over-the-top!

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwnJvK2zGjE

 

Thats just means you need to get better and start learning the game. 

 

This is a good thing since games today are getting more brain dead so its nice Doom Eternal is actually challenging you.

Edited February 15, 2020 by jazzmaster9

[Fonze]

Quote

Foebane said:

If you don't like my "whining" about this, then get a moderator to close this thread. Then we can all live in peace.

Why does this require a moderator taking time out of their day to close a dumb thread of pointless bickering? Couldn't we could all be adults and moderate ourselves to stop posting in this thread?

Edited February 15, 2020 by Fonze

[Foebane72]

5 minutes ago, Fonze said:

Why does this require a moderator taking time out of their day to close a dumb thread of pointless bickering? Couldn't we could all be adults and moderate ourselves to stop posting in this thread?

 

Maybe you're right, it IS over a month before the game even comes out, so I think I'll stop bumping this, unless someone asks me a specific question or more.

 

[Antroid]

7 minutes ago, Fonze said:

Couldn't we could all be adults and moderate ourselves to stop posting in this thread?

Be the change you want to see. ;)

[FractalBeast]

This is a bit silly. Doom 1 and Doom 2 were complicated for the time. We've all been warped by replaying this game for decades with hints, tips, tricks, tutorials and walkthroughs. But Doom 1 and Doom 2 were complicated. 3D movement, dungeon crawling, puzzle solving, ammo management, shooting and dodging, priority targets, finding secrets, and trying to get a good time score.

 

It might not have been an Ultima, System Shock or Elder Scrolls game, but it was certainly more complicated than most shooters of the time (2D shooters, often with automatic scrolling). Besides, games like Ultima, System Shock or the Elder Scrolls had a slow pace, you could take your time. In Doom you need to react as soon as monsters see you. Besides, the other games took place in a continuous world. Doom 1 and 2 has small maps, and there's always a clock ticking.

Edited February 15, 2020 by FractalBeast

[oCrapaCreeper]

I love how when the game was first revealed people complained they dumbed down mechanics etc but now that we know the game plays as a whole different beast, we’re running into opposite problem.

Edited February 15, 2020 by oCrapaCreeper

[Egg Boy]

3 hours ago, jazzmaster9 said:

This is a good thing since games today are getting more brain dead so its nice Doom Eternal is actually challenging you.

This just isn't true, lots of modern titles require you to think on your feet. Difficult games are kind of in fashion at the moment with games like dark souls, cuphead, binding of Isaac and rainbow six siege actually having pretty steep learning curves and complex gameplay and systems. The only really "braindead" titles are the tacked on campaigns that the devs were forced to make for the yearly call of duty. Hell, even the most recent Zelda was the most difficult and least hand holdy it's been since the NES.

[snapshot]

I never understood the appeal of games like Cuphead and Binding of Isaac, even though I don't mind complex gameplay.

Edited February 16, 2020 by sluggard

[Nine Inch Heels]

RE: Games getting more brain-dead... This is not something I'm sure I can agree with. While some games-series implemented more different mechanics in ways that makes them more interesting and diverse, some other games went the opposite route and streamlined a huge chunk of what they had under their hood. It's usually the indie-section of the games market that delivers things like Cuphead, TBOI, ETG, JumpKing, Getting Over It, Celeste and so forth. It's not often you get to see AAA titles which are, for lack of a better expression, a few notches harder than the average title out there.

 

"Dark Souls" for example is nowhere near as hard as people say it is, the game is a lot about learning patterns if you will, so yes, you have to learn something if you want to be able to win, and it is punishing if you fuck something up, but it's not the super hard title it is often perceived to be. Likewise ETG or TBOI can be stupidly easy to beat, or really hard to see through, depending on what RNGsus puts behind doors for you to pick up, so it's not a consistently hard game by any means. If there's something to be said about good TBOI players, then it's that they have a seemingly encyclopedic knowledge of the game's items, but that doesn't mean it's consistently hard, or "complicated to play".

 

In fact, many of the harder indie games out there are very simple in terms of what players can and can't do, so they're easy to pick up, but relatively hard to beat once the devs decide to tighten the thumbscrews. When you compare that to doom eternal, it isn't difficult to see why a game with a couple more layers might come across as complicated or complex. But complexity and difficulty are not the same thing, those are concepts that exist independent of one another. One of the supposedly most complex ARPGs out there is Path of Exile. The "skill-tree" is insanely huge, and there are lots of ways to build a character, but POE is not a hard game, unless you totally gimp your build for some reason, in fact it is quite the opposite of hard, and its only means of keeping players away from "endgame content" is that it has dozens of layers of RNG.

Edited February 16, 2020 by Nine Inch Heels

[Egg Boy]

1 hour ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

RE: Games getting more brain-dead...

To be fair the original word I was critiquing was "braindead" I guess I was a bit off the mark with my explanation, so, sorry. I think what I was trying to say is that there are still a lot of games out there that are engaging and challenging. I, personally, don't think games have digressed in terms of engagement. There's still a healthy amount of games that require the player to think rather than mindlessly stopping and popping. Games are less niche now than they ever were, so there's naturally going to be games that cater to the lowest common denominator, just like in films or tv. But its not like more complex titles have gone away either, again, Rainbow Six Siege is a fine example. Deus Ex: Human Revolution, Street Fighter and XCOM 2, all fit the bill for games that are a bit complex.

[⇛Marnetmar⇛]

I for one don't think we should have to learn mechanics at all and thus am indefinitely abstaining from all video games in protest of this horrible practice 

Edited February 16, 2020 by Marn

[Solmyr]

4 hours ago, jazzmaster9 said:

This is a good thing since games today are getting more brain dead so its nice Doom Eternal is actually challenging you.

 

It's sad to see that the disdain for what newer generations enjoy never ends, and the cycle repeats with each generational change.

[snapshot]

Arkham Knight is one of the games that come to my mind when I think of Complex gameplay that is still engaging, with enemies that can't just be dealt with by just spamming the attack button, and the game makes sure you use the right tools for the right enemies and the right moves at the right time (eg: cape then double space for shielded guys, grapple thingy to deal with the electric guys...etc) and those timing windows the game shows on top of their heads to counter their attacks, Eternal is in a way going to have similar mechanics to these.

 

When I think of games with complex gameplay that are not so overwhelming to play, I think of games like ioi's new Hitman games or Prey 2017, in Prey 2017 how well you do largely depends on using the right tools and abilities, but unlike Arkham Knight with it's overwhelming amount of enemy variety thrown at you at one time, Prey goes with a less overwhelming approach (Stun Phantom with GLOO then shotgun them, use Psychoshock vs Weaver or they'll spread too quickly...etc)

 

It comes down to personal preference, Both require thinking, but If you're looking to challenge yourself and have that feeling of adrenaline rush then fast-paced games like Doom Eternal might have what you're looking for, If you're looking for something that makes you think but still approach it at a slower pace then you should try other kinds of games like Payday 2 or Witcher 3.

Edited February 16, 2020 by sluggard

[jazzmaster9]

5 hours ago, Solmyr said:

 

It's sad to see that the disdain for what newer generations enjoy never ends, and the cycle repeats with each generational change.

Strange you say that since my top 10 games are mostly released recently. Try again

[Foebane72]

11 hours ago, FractalBeast said:

This is a bit silly. Doom 1 and Doom 2 were complicated for the time. We've all been warped by replaying this game for decades with hints, tips, tricks, tutorials and walkthroughs. But Doom 1 and Doom 2 were complicated. 3D movement, dungeon crawling, puzzle solving, ammo management, shooting and dodging, priority targets, finding secrets, and trying to get a good time score.

 

It might not have been an Ultima, System Shock or Elder Scrolls game, but it was certainly more complicated than most shooters of the time (2D shooters, often with automatic scrolling). Besides, games like Ultima, System Shock or the Elder Scrolls had a slow pace, you could take your time. In Doom you need to react as soon as monsters see you. Besides, the other games took place in a continuous world. Doom 1 and 2 has small maps, and there's always a clock ticking.

 

Good points! I never thought about it that way. It practically makes this thread obsolete. I suppose I'm so used to FPS games that I forgot about how much there is in them.

 

I don't know if the easiest difficulty of DE is indeed easy, but all the videos I've seen so far of the gameplay have a dozen demons coming to you at one time, constantly, relentlessly. I'm assuming that the players are on the hardest difficulties?

 

[seed]

2 hours ago, sluggard said:

Arkham Knight is one of the games that come to my mind when I think of Complex gameplay that is still engaging, with enemies that can't just be dealt with by just spamming the attack button, and the game makes sure you use the right tools for the right enemies and the right moves at the right time (eg: cape then double space for shielded guys, grapple thingy to deal with the electric guys...etc) and those timing windows the game shows on top of their heads to counter their attacks, Eternal is in a way going to have similar mechanics to these.

 

Good point, but not just Knight, City and Origins too.

 

They're good examples of games that are easy to play, but hard to master. Beating the main campaign might be a piece of cake more-or-less, but if you want to explore the challenges, these will force you to actually learn to play (maximizing combos, using the environment to your advantage, learning the patters, prioritizing enemies, when and what gadgets are preferred to use, and so on).

 

Sure, you can kind of still beat many of them in a "braindead" or pure grind fashion, but that's going to take considerably more time and far more tries (not to mention frustration and anger) to get right when you could've taken your time to learn and do a better job. The Extreme Predator challenges in these games are a fine example of this (in Origins not to much, they're considerably easier, but City and I think Knight too have some seriously unforgiving missions if you don't know what to do. These things expect the player to have a strategy for beating them).

 

This also brings me to the other point made above - modern games are not "dumbed down". In fact they're more complex than ever now, you just have to know where to look. Like with all things, gaming is a lot bigger and obviously some of these games will try to appeal to the lowest common denominator, but judging all modern games based on a few series that do this is a severely limiting and narrow-minded perspective. This idea is sometimes echoed by elitists too, who want all games to cater to them and fit their "needs" - whatever that nonsense is supposed to mean - , and everyone else to go do something else instead. Those "filthy casuals" man, how dare they "pollute" the industry!!

Edited February 16, 2020 by seed

[snapshot]

2 hours ago, seed said:

This idea is sometimes echoed by elitists too, who want all games to cater to them and fit their "needs"

True, they have to widen appeal to gain new audience, there's no reason to "choke their creativity", there's plenty of choices out there.

Edited February 16, 2020 by sluggard
typo

[Solmyr]

3 hours ago, jazzmaster9 said:

Strange you say that since my top 10 games are mostly released recently. Try again

One can enjoy things and still look down at those things to some degree. The expression 'brain-dead' is a sign of contempt.

[Boaby Kenobi]

I think it's a little disappointing that the title of this thread is not: "Remember when Doom was DEAD simple?, or even: "Remember when Doom was even simpler?".