[Source port] Introducing Raze: ''That's one Duked up Space Marine!''

[Redneckerz]

3 hours ago, seed said:

Actually I got an update regarding DN64 support in Raze.

 

According to some very recent conversations with Graf, the answer for the time being is actually a strong "no". When nuke added support for it, the game code also got mixed with GL 2.x code, which renders it fully incompatible with Raze's codebase.

 

Unfortunately, this also has the side-effect of making backporting stuff from Rednukem's repo no longe possible either, the codebase just got rendered useless for our project. So for the foreseeable future, folks wanting to play DN64 on PC natively will have to use Rednukem instead.

 

 

InDOOMnesia after reading this post:

 

^{(This joke will not make sense in time given InDO loves to change avatars relatively often, so imagine a surprised  bemused guy with sweat drops on his face.)}

 

Ontopic: This is quite a setback really, and id love to hear why the decision was made to directly insert OGL code in the game, i reckon for optimization purposes, but still.

 

Perhaps Graf and Nuke can set up a meeting to discuss these things. Both projects have different purposes but also different optimizations. I reckon both can gain something from it.

Edited July 5, 2020 by Redneckerz

[seed]

5 minutes ago, Redneckerz said:

Ontopic: This is quite a setback really, and id love to hear why the decision was made to directly insert OGL code in the game, i reckon for optimization purposes, but still.

 

Quote

"It's not mixed but it's a necessary prerequisite for running Duke64. Which means I cannot just drop in the code and make it work with Raze."

 

And someone else's explanation, presumably familiar with the situation:

 

Quote

"From game play side there won't be major differences but this one instead aims to port over bigger parts like the rendering from N64 version.

In other words, this is a true port."

 

Edited July 5, 2020 by seed

[Cacodemon345]

There also is simply not enough people contributing to Raze.

 

Quote

"Especially since we just lack the manpower.

As it stands, I understand that it is technically possible to integrate it, but you will first have to basically rewrite the entire code base to make it compatible, and that simply cannot be done at this point in time, we have our plans too but also finite resources. The most active folks writing actual code for Raze are Graf himself and MJ for quite a while now - I'm a tester, not a programmer, sadly, if I knew, I would have contributed in that sense as well since day-1, but even if I would, backporting that stuff would be way out of my league.

So for as long as we're short-handed, Duke64 is not going to come to Raze."

 

If I had to bet when the support for Duke64 is coming to Raze, it would be after Doom 64 support is a thing in GZDoom (also not holding my breath for that either).

[Redneckerz]

49 minutes ago, seed said:

 

 

And someone else's explanation, presumably familiar with the situation:

 

 

I just realized Nuke made his own thread for this regarding Duke64 support:

 

[seed]

Yeap, basically.

 

Now obviously up until this day quite a few other people have also made their contribution to Raze in various ways, including code, and will most likely do so again in the future, especially since they're also involved with GZDoom.

 

But for a while now, only Graf and MJ have been writing actual code for the project, so we're simply cut short on resources right now. I would have written code myself too if I could, but sadly I have zero programming knowledge - hence why 100% of the time I am just asiduously testing things instead as my contribution -, I'd probably have to take courses to learn that, but since I have other problems and soon enough will have to find a full-time job too, those would practically just leave me with zero time to learn the craft.

 

So until this changes (lack of manpower), a) development will be slow but also not stagnant, and b) features like Duke64 support will not be happening.

Edited July 5, 2020 by seed

[wallabra]

Your official slogan should be "Not to be confused with its polar opposite, Rage!"

 

It looks really cool! I will try it soon enough, then report back on my experience later.

[seed]

3 minutes ago, Gustavo6046 said:

Your official slogan should be "Not to be confused with its polar opposite, Rage!"

 

It looks really cool! I will try it soon enough, then report back on my experience later.

 

No, we kinda already have one :p : "Demolishing what once was Build."

[wallabra]

Build was a mess, good point. It probably feels like that building in Duke's E1L2 now.

 

3 hours ago, Redneckerz said:

InDOOMnesia [...]

 

^{([...] imagine a surprised guy with sweat drops on his face.)}

 

It's bemused.

Edited July 5, 2020 by Gustavo6046

[Redneckerz]

6 minutes ago, Gustavo6046 said:

Build was a mess, good point. It probably feels like that building in Duke's E1L2 now.

 

 

It's bemused.

I geniunely do not understand the why in doing this.
^{(I'll change it.)}

[wallabra]

26 minutes ago, Redneckerz said:

I geniunely do not understand the why in doing this.

 

Surprise does not imply negativity. It confused me and I felt like it could confuse others. A tiny nitpick, if I'm being sincere to myself. :p

 

But yeah! I'll start with PowerSlave. Then I'll try Duke, then Blood. I might be able to test other games some time in the future, as well!

 

===[update]

Okay, got it built from the Arch Linux AUR. Is it okay if I report bugs from raze (seems to be a less nightly version) rather than raze-git? I want to build the latest LLVM as soon as possible after this, and it will be frighteningly resource intensive.

Edited July 5, 2020 by Gustavo6046

[Flesh699]

Will this project ever get to a point where we won't rely on Build Editor to make maps for D3d?  Or is that impossible and time consuming? 

 

I enjoy making maps for D3d but have always disliked the hacky nature of map creation for Duke.

[VGA]

I don't see how the map editor is related to this port. I mean, someone would have to put the work in and develop a new map editor. I don't think Raze development really helps with that endeavor, other than attracting more developer interest.

[seed]

5 hours ago, VGA said:

I don't see how the map editor is related to this port. I mean, someone would have to put the work in and develop a new map editor. I don't think Raze development really helps with that endeavor, other than attracting more developer interest.

 

Yeah, not really related, although support for Duke/Build maps might arrive in the form of an addon in the future. An entirely new map editor, however? Extremely unlikely.

[MrFlibble]

Dukeworld has the classic user maps, TCs and other content for Duke3D from 1996 onwards. I'm pretty certain it was even possible to download maps sorted by year but now I can't find these folders.

[Graf Zahl]

On 7/16/2020 at 1:11 AM, Flesh699 said:

Will this project ever get to a point where we won't rely on Build Editor to make maps for D3d?  Or is that impossible and time consuming? 

 

I enjoy making maps for D3d but have always disliked the hacky nature of map creation for Duke.

 

While it should be possible to write a map loader that can load a custom dialect of UDMF for Build games don't expect too much from it.

Many of the problems you experience here are not cause by the map format but by the poor internal representation of the map data.

 

It is almost as if Doom was written to make things easy for the mapper and let the engine do a bit more work when loading a map.

Build is the polar opposite: All data has been optimized to have as little work as possible in the engine but in turn it mercilessly exposed all the warts and bumps to the mapper, and obviously all the hacks that come with it. And compared to what you can do with these hacks, most of Doom's glitch exploits are harmless.

 

[DNSKILL5]

I just downloaded this a little while ago, and I have been a fan of Duke as far back as the DOS days, so I'm use to CON editing and stuff like that, so I have a couple questions because I want to be sure I understand this port correctly.. (I know Raze supports other games but my focus is on DN3D with these questions):

 

-I no longer need to use CON editing to edit features of the game when using Raze, or does Raze still support CON files in addition to the new editing format? 

-I can still use BUILD or Mapster32 to create DN3D usermaps that will run on Raze, or is this something that may be possible in a future release if it isn't already?

 

Please forgive me if these questions have been asked already, but I really want to get to work on my mapset for DN3D. After reading the OP and some of the posts on this thread I feel I know the answers to these questions already, but I don't want to get too far into my mapset and find out the answers the hard way if I turn out to be wrong! That being said, I was a sceptic of this whole thing at first, but this is very awesome. Runs great on my PC and I haven't run into any issues currently. I was able to change the visuals the way I wanted to without any issue, and it being similar to GZDoom to configure the options for things like that absolutely makes this a very accessible port for those already familiar with GZDoom. 

[Graf Zahl]

3 hours ago, Gerolf said:

-I no longer need to use CON editing to edit features of the game when using Raze, or does Raze still support CON files in addition to the new editing format? 

 

There are no new methods for editing yet. Duke is a very poorly structured game and getting it into a shape where real scripting can be added without breaking stuff will be a hard and time consuming task. I think it makes more sense first to define a UDMF-style map format so that interested modders can use better editors, but even for that some cleanup work is still needed to make it not fall apart.

 

3 hours ago, Gerolf said:

-I can still use BUILD or Mapster32 to create DN3D usermaps that will run on Raze, or is this something that may be possible in a future release if it isn't already?

 

You can use any existing Duke editor to make maps, the underlying engine is still the original Duke, it's merely the backend code for rendering and sound that has been swapped out.

 

 

 

3 hours ago, Gerolf said:

Please forgive me if these questions have been asked already, but I really want to get to work on my mapset for DN3D. After reading the OP and some of the posts on this thread I feel I know the answers to these questions already, but I don't want to get too far into my mapset and find out the answers the hard way if I turn out to be wrong! That being said, I was a sceptic of this whole thing at first, but this is very awesome. Runs great on my PC and I haven't run into any issues currently. I was able to change the visuals the way I wanted to without any issue, and it being similar to GZDoom to configure the options for things like that absolutely makes this a very accessible port for those already familiar with GZDoom. 

 

Raze is still in an early alpha stage. There's still a lot of internal restructuring going on which is the reason why no new version has been released for several months.

But one thing should be said clearly: None of the existing games is coded in a way that's as flexible and extensible as Doom - many things were just haphazardly slapped together to implement the needed features. So don't expect to get a nice and tidy map action system like Doom's linedef types which were done in a way that extending it was very, very simple.

 

[D4NUK1]

Hi, it's possible to use Duke Nukem World Tour to get the data necesary to play it on RAZE?

Or it's not possible? Also i got available the ports of Blood: Flesh Suppy and Shadow Warrior Redux, but i trink they got the same data as the older games.

Thanks!

[Gez]

1 hour ago, jamondemarnatural said:

Hi, it's possible to use Duke Nukem World Tour to get the data necessary to play it on RAZE?

Yeah.

 

Also if you get the latest stopgap pack from https://github.com/Hendricks266/e32wt you can play the new episode, too.

[Spectre01]

Do the new World Tour enemies/weapons work now? I remember that being an issue to implement.

[D4NUK1]

Also, i can play the mod of Duke Nukem Forever with the World Tour Game?

https://www.moddb.com/mods/duke-nukem-forever

[DNSKILL5]

Since this is the thread dedicated to Raze here on DW, I have written a guide for beginners on getting started with CON code editing (this is specific to DN3D). For those interested, you can read the guide on ZDoom forums.
 

The guide has beginners in mind, so if you already have CON scripting experience you may find some of the information to be a little excessive, but I find it is the best way to get points across to people that have little to no programming knowledge is to give them more information instead of assuming they should already know what a programmer might find to be obvious.  

[SlayerOGames666]

Ooh! Ooh! Ooh! Will we be eventually getting something like Ultimate Doom Builder but for Duke3D and stuff?

[taufan99]

2 minutes ago, iconofeggsafe666 said:

Ooh! Ooh! Ooh! Will we be eventually getting something like Ultimate Doom Builder but for Duke3D and stuff?

It's discontinued, although people can indeed continue its development if they want.

[SlayerOGames666]

1 minute ago, InDOOMnesia said:

It's discontinued, although people can indeed continue its development if they want.

What's discontinued?

[taufan99]

31 minutes ago, iconofeggsafe666 said:

What's discontinued?

The Duke Builder, right?

[SlayerOGames666]

9 hours ago, InDOOMnesia said:

The Duke Builder, right?

D'oh! But where can I get a version of Duke Builder?

[taufan99]

5 minutes ago, iconofeggsafe666 said:

D'oh! But where can I get a version of Duke Builder?

 

https://github.com/m-x-d/Duke-Builder

[SlayerOGames666]

[[McD] James]

Good stuff. I haven't actually purchased/played the World Tour episode yet, but it would be nice to play it without the annoying changes that World Tour made.