There shouldn't be an objective marker

[Szuran]

33 minutes ago, Gez said:

The best IMO would be a hybrid system where the markers are disabled at start, but each one has a timer. If the player doesn't reach the waypoint by the time the timer runs out, then Vega helpfully says "I have detected an important-looking <insert gizmo here: key, switch, whatever> and will show its direction on your HUD" and then the objective marker is toggled on. Once you reach it, the timer for the next point starts running, and so on.

 

This reduces hand-holding and information overload, while still making sure (provided the timers are timed right) that players don't get lost running in circles.

 

Agreed, and here choose how fast it should be enabled. Tomb Raider 2012 had something like this in the puzzle segments, but there Lara would spoil everything in like 10 seconds, you didn't even have time to look around and process the thing.

[SOSU]

I thank god every day for objective markers :)
Modern games feel so visually busy to me i can barely see shit in them let alone find some red key in a red room or something simmiliar like that xD

[jazzmaster9]

6 hours ago, Szuran said:

 

Then tell me, why have both?

 

 

Options? Have you not been paying attention to the thread?

[Bauul]

9 hours ago, Castelia said:

I'm not very experienced with modern-day FPS titles, and for some reason, it's harder for me to find where to go in them than the classic Doom games, for example.

 

There's a link between a game's simplicity and people's ability to remember how to navigate around its levels.  It's no surprise you found Doom 2016 more difficult to navigate than the classic Doom - there's so much more visual fidelity that it's harder to hold the overall level design in your head.  Basically the more complex the graphics of a game gets, the simpler the level design needs to be.  That's why many modern games have an objective marker - so they don't need to cut back on visual fidelity while still ensuring a level remains navigational.

 

Funnily enough I've discovered this in making Elementalism.  I found because of the extra graphical fidelity in those maps I needed to add a lot more signposting and guidance to prevent players from getting lost.  And that's just in GZDoom, let alone something like idTech6.

 

7 hours ago, Szuran said:

When I turned off the marker, I couldn't for the life of me find one of the necessary pickups in Doom 2016. It was in a medium size room, the room was marked on the map, but I was looking for it for a LONG time. Because the art direction didn't think to make it stand out visually. Why do so when it's gonna have an objective marker?

 

As someone who played the whole of Doom 2016 without the objective marker and never once struggled to know where to go, I don't think you can use your own personal experience as a universal source of truth here.

[Super Mighty G]

8 hours ago, Szuran said:

This being an option is actually just a pretence of this being an option. If it's on by default, it's how the game was designed in the first place.

 

Markers = no environmental direction, and that's the sad truth.

It's funny because you actually no way of knowing that and are just pushing a narrative. Why have both if one isn't required? Because options are GOOD. 

[TakenStew22]

Objective markers help people like me realize where they're going and what their true path is. It also helps me realize that place is the place where I'm supposed to go so I go on different paths before going to that one. Like, imagine if there was no objective marker and you wanted to go on different paths to look for secrets or other stuff but you suddenly go on the correct path and get locked in that area, never to come back to look at the other areas you missed unless you restarted the level. That's one of the only few things I disliked about Doom 2016. Thankfully the markers tell me what the real path is so I can go look for other stuff.

 

Plus it's optional to turn it off, so there's absolutely no reason to complain.

Edited February 26, 2020 by TakenStew22

[seed]

1 hour ago, TakenStew22 said:

Objective markers help people like me realize where they're going and what their true path is. It also helps me realize that place is the place where I'm supposed to go so I go on different paths before going to that one. Like, imagine if there was no objective marker and you wanted to go on different paths to look for secrets or other stuff but you suddenly go on the correct path and get locked in that area, never to come back to look at the other areas you missed unless you restarted the level. That's one of the only few things I disliked about Doom 2016. Thankfully the markers tell me what the real path is so I can go look for other stuff.

 

Plus it's optional to turn it off, so there's absolutely no reason to complain.

 

Oh yeah, this. I've done it in a few games where I wanted to look for resources, not to mention countless wads, only to end up going the right way, triggering a trap, and being stuck that way forever.

 

Markers are useful, and whether the game really was designed with it in mind or not is up to everyone to decide.

[mewbusi]

7 hours ago, Gez said:

The best IMO would be a hybrid system where the markers are disabled at start, but each one has a timer. If the player doesn't reach the waypoint by the time the timer runs out, then Vega helpfully says "I have detected an important-looking <insert gizmo here: key, switch, whatever> and will show its direction on your HUD" and then the objective marker is toggled on. Once you reach it, the timer for the next point starts running, and so on.

 

This reduces hand-holding and information overload, while still making sure (provided the timers are timed right) that players don't get lost running in circles.

 

This is a really good idea for how to handle those markers. I would very much like this for how markers work for Doom Eternal but the ability to turn off and on markers is a reasonable way to do it as well.

[D88M3R]

Games now have to make a lot of concessions and pandering and dumbing down because, since they are very expensive, they have to make everything possible to get their money back, that is why all games now look the same (it also happens with movies). 
So, they cannot target just some kind of player, like someone who likes action or just fps, they have to target EVERYONE, among them, casuals, people who "dont have time" to play, little kids, their parents, people who dont want to think while playing and just want "to have fun", people who dont usually play, etc.

That is why stuff like level design and enviromental storytelling have to be left in the sidelines, is too much resources invested into something that just a few people are going to appreciate it, the money is in making it accesible.

Edited February 26, 2020 by D88M3R

[ptoing]

Don't know if this was already mentioned or not, but things like objective markers are part of accessibility settings.

Not everyone is a "hardcore gamer" and they might want those things. The people who don't want them, can turn them off.

Options are always good when it comes to things like this.

[NoXion]

I wouldn't call the addition of optional objective markers to be "pandering" or "dumbing down". You can still play the game on Ultra-Violence, Nightmare, or permadeath mode and the game will still do its level best to kick your arse. In Eternal I'm pretty sure that you can play a permadeath mode that doesn't use the extra lives system.

In D16 not all the secrets are marked on the map. I still haven't found them all, pandering and dumbing down would allow lazy idiots like me to find them all easily.

[Cruduxy Pegg]

Games with them tend to have much worse map flow so playing without them is pretty much begging to get lost since nothing tells you where to head next with any kind of competence.

[jazzmaster9]

2 hours ago, D88M3R said:

So, they cannot target just some kind of player, like someone who likes action or just fps, they have to target EVERYONE, among them, casuals, people who "dont have time" to play, little kids, their parents, people who dont want to think while playing and just want "to have fun", people who dont usually play, etc.

Imagine not allowing other people to enjoy games...

[ptoing]

5 minutes ago, jazzmaster9 said:

Imagine not allowing other people to enjoy games...

 

And obviously Bethesda is gonna pump millions and millions of dollars into a game just to have id make it for a super niche audience, because that would make financial sense. Some people...

Plus from a lot of videos we have seen so far it is clear that the game is not easy, esp on higher difficulty modes. So if you are hardcore you can always choose a higher difficulty.

 

1 hour ago, Pegg said:

Games with them tend to have much worse map flow so playing without them is pretty much begging to get lost since nothing tells you where to head next with any kind of competence.

 

Just don't pretend as if some of the original Doom levels were not confusing to navigate. Also there is always the automap as well if you are really stumped.

Edited February 26, 2020 by ptoing

[BBQgiraffe]

22 hours ago, OneDoomedSpaceMarine said:

there's an option to turn that off

most of the things people are complaining about are lol

[whatup876]

1 hour ago, Pegg said:

Games with them tend to have much worse map flow so playing without them is pretty much begging to get lost since nothing tells you where to head next with any kind of competence.

 

That and 2016 wasn't a colorfull game.

Eternal has stronger colors in comparison, you can tell what things are.

[Budoka]

20 hours ago, seed said:

 

That actually sounds pretty good. And I think some games have done something similar to this too.

It's the Metroid Prime approach, and yeah it's pretty good. To the points about mass appeal above, one should be careful to remember that you can only spread yourself so thin before you end up overshooting the limit and thus satisfying no one at all. I think there's a famous quote about that. Not worried about Doom Eternal as far as that goes though.

[seed]

3 hours ago, Budoka said:

It's the Metroid Prime approach, and yeah it's pretty good. To the points about mass appeal above, one should be careful to remember that you can only spread yourself so thin before you end up overshooting the limit and thus satisfying no one at all. I think there's a famous quote about that. Not worried about Doom Eternal as far as that goes though.

 

You're thinking of "When you want to please everyone, you end up pleasing no one" me thinks ;).

 

And yeah, that argument about Eternal catering to everyone is stupid in this case. If anything, they've tried to cater to Doom fans the most out of everyone else and people who have some degree of experience with the games, instead of going for mass appeal to get every player on earth on board. I am confident id knows what they want to do.

[snapshot]

It's all part of the accessibility options, they need them to get more people on board, If you don't have troubles navigating the levels or don't like them you can just turn them off. not everyone is a h1rdcore g8mer, someone's who's new to games is likely going to miss the environmental hints so they need to ease them in, don't be an elitist about it.

Edited February 27, 2020 by sluggard
typo

[Ziad EL Zein]

The FACT that this is an Arena based Shooter where levels are broken down to small bits and pieces makes the idea of keys or markers totally irrelevant !!!!  The level is broken down into small segments. You are just walking from segment to segment: 1.enter a new Arena 2.get locked in 3.do combat  4.Repeat ... it is not the kind of level design where you get to explore or find multiple paths ... you are in it for the combat... & only the combat if not prepare to be disappointed...

Edited February 27, 2020 by Ziad EL Zein

[snapshot]

I've seen bits of gameplay that made me wonder where the player is supposed to be heading, including some of the larger ones and some that are heavy on platforming, I imagine they'll be helpful there to at least nudge you in the right direction if you miss the visual cues like those green lights they used to talk about, some areas are so detailed it can be confusing to pinpoint points of interest. 

 

E: and yes I still don't like arenas.

Edited February 27, 2020 by sluggard

[NoXion]

I'm not really bothered by them myself, but I'm wondering why they are even necessary in the first place. Is it technical or mechanical? Because I find the enemy pathfinding in 2016 to be quite impressive. Maybe it'll get better in Eternal, but as it stands arenas appear to be unnecessary from the standpoint of ensuring the player doesn't just dodge encounters. I once had a Hell Knight that I missed chase me down from halfway across the level and confront me in a confined space, that kind of thing can wake you up a bit.

Edited February 27, 2020 by NoXion

[snapshot]

I'm not sure, there was an interview with Marty where he said something along the lines of not wanting players to just lure them out and snipe them down one by one, seems they figured it's an easier way to deal with players just skipping them since they're like some of the main challenge areas of the game, the game would probably be a lot easier and shorter if you didn't stop and kill a bunch of bad guys before you progress, don't know if it's the best way to deal with it but it's what it is.

 

E: What I don't like about them is that they happen so frequently, and the game does very little to keep them varied or interesting, It's always "music kicks in, kill everyone"

Edited February 27, 2020 by sluggard

[Jalapen0]

I didn't mind having those markers because DOOM is a huge game and I keep reading how much bigger DE will be.  It's much easier to get lost in DOOM than Classic Doom.

[Novaseer]

3 hours ago, NoXion said:

I once had a Hell Knight that I missed chase me down from halfway across the level and confront me in a confined space, that kind of thing can wake you up a bit.

Foundry?

[NoXion]

3 minutes ago, Novaseer said:

Foundry?

It was either that or Argent Facility.

[oCrapaCreeper]

If the maps are twice as big as 2016, objective markers are a very understandable feature to have still. It’s not like some tiny map by contrast from the 90’s where you can memorize every aspect or figure things out by running blindly.

Edited February 28, 2020 by oCrapaCreeper

[Guest Unregistered account]

I'd also prefer if there weren't any arenas, or better yet, if they were spread thin throughout as a sort of mini boss event. When it's just the AI freely moving throughout the level it always seems able to navigate it in a way where you can't escape which I love.

 

On the topic of waypoint markers, I wouldn't think they were necessary if there was better visual language to guide the player in 2016, but if I managed to miss the double jump boots in a small room for minutes on end because there's nothing to make them stand out from the clutter of the room until I paid close attention to the marker then I think that's a problem - it could just be me since I got stuck a lot in half life 2 but I've seen similar complaints about the same situation so I don't think so.

Edited February 29, 2020 by Unregistered account

[Tetzlaff]

On 2/26/2020 at 8:41 AM, Szuran said:

This being an option is actually just a pretence of this being an option. If it's on by default, it's how the game was designed in the first place.

 

Markers = no environmental direction, and that's the sad truth.

This isn‘t true. Turning off the objective markers was among the first things I did when I played through Doom 2016 and I never had a problem finding my way through the levels.

[whirledtsar]

It's a AAA game in 2020, they need to be accessible to the lowest common denominator.

 

Thankfully, unlike Skyrim you never actually need the objective markers to find your way. The levels (in Doom 4 at least) are designed in a straight-forward & intuitive fashion.