(Dread not dead, now Grind and with source) Dread - A Doom clone for Amiga 500 and... Atari ST/STE.

[Redneckerz]

24 minutes ago, Nikku4211 said:

Still probably too expensive for most people. You've still got to be a hardcore collector if you have $ laying around that you want to burn on a literal arcade board.

Well the AES for sure. But an MVS is quite a bit cheaper.

[Nikku4211]

4 hours ago, Redneckerz said:

Well the AES for sure. But an MVS is quite a bit cheaper.

How cheap?

 

I kind of doubt the MVS is actually affordable for most.

 

I know nothing about arcade collecting myself. I just know each Neo Geo game is a whole arcade board.

[Kinsie]

There are only a few things bigger than the price tags in Neo Geo land: The egos, the collector drama, and the cartridges. Seriously, them things big.

 

Anyway, back on topic: Dread good.

[Redneckerz]

8 hours ago, Nikku4211 said:

How cheap?

Google it! :)

8 hours ago, Nikku4211 said:

I know nothing about arcade collecting myself. I just know each Neo Geo game is a whole arcade board.

You mean the ROM? Because yes, those are rather large :)

3 hours ago, Kinsie said:

There are only a few things bigger than the price tags in Neo Geo land: The egos, the collector drama, and the cartridges. Seriously, them things big.

 

Anyway, back on topic: Dread good.

Dread amazing. Its barely comprehendable it runs on the hardware that it does.

[Nikku4211]

6 hours ago, Redneckerz said:

Google it! :)

That's the issue: Google isn't giving me that much to work with.

 

Most of the consolised MVS units I'm seeing are pretty expensive, usually around $500 or so.

Quote

You mean the ROM? Because yes, those are rather large :)

So large I don't even know if the cartridges only have the ROMs inside.

Edited September 9, 2021 by Nikku4211

[Redneckerz]

Update:

KK/Altair released tools to make Dread levels, using Doom Builder.

 

The Dread mapmaking SDK ver. 1907 links:

• The SDK download - http://devkk.net/files/dread/Dread-Mapmaking-SDK-1907.zip
• Documentation wiki - http://devkk.net/wiki/index.php/Dreadtool

Note:

You can't use these directly in the Dread engine, but you can atleast preview them on PC and prepare your levels. Since KK uses Doom Builder 2 for Dread, the SDK contains the needed data and information to create Dread levels using Doom Builder 2 (Or UDB, most likely)

 

This is also added to the main post.

Edited September 12, 2021 by Redneckerz

[Nikku4211]

Does Dread use the WAD format, or something else?

[Redneckerz]

1 hour ago, Nikku4211 said:

Does Dread use the WAD format, or something else?

Did you look at the Wiki i linked? It contains this page:

 

http://devkk.net/wiki/index.php/Creating_new_map

 

In it, it shows a format devised by KK: KK (Dread in Doom format).

 

Then there is Dreadtool and this page: http://devkk.net/wiki/index.php/Project.cfg

 

It mentions the WAD format, which is then converted.

 

TLDR: Yes, Dread uses WAD in a custom format.

[Redneckerz]

Update:

See Doom E1M1 re-created in Dread Engine, height differences and all!

 

Starting from 1:08:13 see Dread render a recreation of E1M1.

 

 

People have also been chipping away at the Dread Engine and been making several custom levels for it, so here are two video's showing that off, including a Wolfenstein 3D level:

 

 

[Maes]

By looking closely at the screenshots/videos, it's clear how the "striped" look of ceiling/floor textures is created: just an alternating pixel pattern, which is -presumably- being rapidly blitted as a traditional line/pattern fill. This gives a bit more texture -pun intended- to floors and ceilings, but it remains constant no matter the view distance, and also they are not rotated or anything. This same trick was used for ages in polygon-based engine, so no big mystery there.

 

What's not so clear -at least for me- is how/why the striped look of wall textures is created. I've seen the same kind of visuals on other "low end" Wolf3D/Doom-like engines, especially on 8-bit and 16-bit machines before, but I never understood the technicalities/reasoning behind them. They too give a faux "hi-res" touch to wall textures, but unlike floors/ceilings, these cannot be created as cheaply -the patterns seem to be applied at the texture pixel level. I cannot imagine this being particularly efficient vs using a single color, unless the blitting hardware has something to do with it and they are used as a kind of color dithering.

[tsak]

On 2/8/2022 at 12:00 PM, Maes said:

By looking closely at the screenshots/videos, it's clear how the "striped" look of ceiling/floor textures is created: just an alternating pixel pattern, which is -presumably- being rapidly blitted as a traditional line/pattern fill. This gives a bit more texture -pun intended- to floors and ceilings, but it remains constant no matter the view distance, and also they are not rotated or anything. This same trick was used for ages in polygon-based engine, so no big mystery there.

 

What's not so clear -at least for me- is how/why the striped look of wall textures is created. I've seen the same kind of visuals on other "low end" Wolf3D/Doom-like engines, especially on 8-bit and 16-bit machines before, but I never understood the technicalities/reasoning behind them. They too give a faux "hi-res" touch to wall textures, but unlike floors/ceilings, these cannot be created as cheaply -the patterns seem to be applied at the texture pixel level. I cannot imagine this being particularly efficient vs using a single color, unless the blitting hardware has something to do with it and they are used as a kind of color dithering.

Let me offer some more insight (at least on how Dread works). The game operates under a 2x2 logic pixel resolution. However we can have each logic pixel split in half vertically and assign any color from our palette to each part (left or right). This appplies to the whole 3D in-game display, from flat surfaces to textured ones, to enemies e.t.c.

KK used this method early on to achieve some sort of dithering. Since the assets used originally were from the Free-Doom project, he had to downgrade them to 16 colors. So he used the second half pixel in an effort to make up for the color loss. And this is why the game early looked the way it did with loads of vertical banding.

After we joined forces, I noticed that since we have independant color control over each half pixel, we can actually display texture information instead of dither, thus pushing the resolution into 2x1 territory. Later we also found that if we horizontally pre-shift each texture by half pixel we can signifficantly improve scaling as well. Remember that the game even with the doubling trick, still operates under 2x2, so all scale operations happen at that size. Preshifting the textures allowed us to come even closer to real 2x1 display (this whole deal is explained brilliantly at episode 8 btw). But this comes at a cost: once you come too close to a texture, it's stucture starts to break up and banding appears. So this is a compromise between having superior scaling from mid distance and afar vs banding up close.
Good news is that we can further improve this later by implementing mipmapping, especially with objects or textures you tend to come close enough (f.e. doors or switches). Since this comes with Ram cost, it's to be evaluated further.

PS : Btw, small suggestion to thread starter, since the first post gets updated, it would be nice to include some newer pics and images (or vids) so the newer looks and content are better represented for new-comers ;)

[Maes]

@tsak thank you for your detailed explanation. It's interesting how that same technique was also used e.g. in that Duke 3D port for the Sega Genesis/Mega Drive. And they also had to deal with the vagaries of a tile-based display!

[CBM]

amazing project!

[tsak]

13 hours ago, Maes said:

@tsak thank you for your detailed explanation. It's interesting how that same technique was also used e.g. in that Duke 3D port for the Sega Genesis/Mega Drive. And they also had to deal with the vagaries of a tile-based display!

Yeah, from what I've seen the logic pixel they use is 1x2 in this case, but seems they also split it in half and have the 2 parts colorised at will. Which if used for dithering results in this characteristic vertical banding.

[Redneckerz]

On 2/10/2022 at 12:23 AM, tsak said:

PS : Btw, small suggestion to thread starter, since the first post gets updated, it would be nice to include some newer pics and images (or vids) so the newer looks and content are better represented for new-comers ;)

Done! Its great work you are all delivering, Tsak!

[tsak]

Thanks! :)
 

[tsak]

Current state of Dread visuals:

Hey guys, small update on the project, a lot has been added and planned lately, namely KK has embarked on a big RAM optimisation trip (already saved a ton of extra space, which means more room for bigger maps, content and variation for minimum configurations) and I've been making a lot of new stuff, like brand new decor objects, textures and enemies.

Here's a selection of screenshots from a new map I've made to test some of the above :

[Dexiaz]

Sick! Looks cool so far!

[Redneckerz]

Those light fixtures look amazing and set so much ambiance.

[Antkibo]

Looks sick!

[Rudolph]

@tsak What is the creature in the second picture? It reminds me of Quake's Shambler.

[Nikku4211]

Woah, epic! There's polyobjects in this engine?

 

Or however you call how you do the sliding doors.

 

Does this Dread engine use BSP?

 

How many FPS does it get now on a stock unexpanded A500?

[tsak]

On 4/4/2022 at 4:45 AM, Rudolph said:

@tsak What is the creature in the second picture? It reminds me of Quake's Shambler.

Yup, it's a Shambler inspired creature. The upper body design is from a drawing I found from Lovecraft's online bestiary (rather than Quake). But yeah, they do look quite similar. They will definitely play differently though ;)

 

On 4/4/2022 at 8:30 AM, Nikku4211 said:

Woah, epic! There's polyobjects in this engine?

 

Or however you call how you do the sliding doors.

No, we've got special linedef actions for doors. The engine used to be restricted to 64 wide ones but now we can slide any width. 
 

On 4/4/2022 at 8:30 AM, Nikku4211 said:

Does this Dread engine use BSP?

Yes, Dread is a BSP engine  ;)
 

On 4/4/2022 at 8:30 AM, Nikku4211 said:

How many FPS does it get now on a stock unexpanded A500?

Around 10-14 fps on average. But feels a lot smoother as your weapons swing and move at 50 fps. On unexpanded a1200 you get a signifficant boost and then the game caps at max (30fps) with an a1200+fast ram. Overal and from what I've seen and played, Dread feels quite a bit more fluid than SNES Doom currently on a500. 

[Rudolph]

@tsak What Doom monster will they be replacing?

[tsak]

7 hours ago, Rudolph said:

@tsak What Doom monster will they be replacing?

None possibly, I'd like to experiment with this enemy and try something different. We're thinking of having him throwing fireballs while keeping his distance but turn to fast chase and melee if hit once. So something between the Imp and Pinky perhaps? We might be able to double down this way with his roles, make him useful both in open spaces/combined with other enemies or close quarters. Or have him switching roles via actions depending on how you need him to behave. 

All in theory of course as we have to test first.  

[Rudolph]

Either way, I would definitely love to see it serve as a template for a redesign of Freedoom's Hell Knight/Baron of Hell replacement!

[Nikku4211]

17 hours ago, tsak said:

No, we've got special linedef actions for doors. The engine used to be restricted to 64 wide ones but now we can slide any width. 

 

The sliding doors have some depth to them, and they move in a way that isn't any choppier than the rest of the game.

 

How'd you do that in a BSP engine like this?

17 hours ago, tsak said:

On unexpanded a1200 you get a signifficant boost and then the game caps at max (30fps) with an a1200+fast ram.

 

30FPS? Does this game work at all in NTSC?

 

30 is not a factor of 50 after all.

[tsak]

14 hours ago, Nikku4211 said:

 

The sliding doors have some depth to them, and they move in a way that isn't any choppier than the rest of the game.

How'd you do that in a BSP engine like this?

 

That might be because Dread is also polygon based. We expect at some point to be able to do stuf that would be impossible with id Tech 1.
F.e. slopes are doable.

 

14 hours ago, Nikku4211 said:

30FPS? Does this game work at all in NTSC?

30 is not a factor of 50 after all.

It should but there are no steps taken to test and troubleshoot this yet.

[Nikku4211]

2 hours ago, tsak said:

That might be because Dread is also polygon based. We expect at some point to be able to do stuf that would be impossible with id Tech 1.
 F.e. slopes are doable.

Oh, so you're making the Amiga 500 render polygons on top of column-based structures?

 

Do you expect to do stuff impossible even with LZDoom's software renderer?

[tsak]

20 hours ago, Nikku4211 said:

Oh, so you're making the Amiga 500 render polygons on top of column-based structures?

 

Do you expect to do stuff impossible even with LZDoom's software renderer?

I don't know specifics on how the tech works exactly unfortunately (remember I'm just the artist), I have a general understanding but for more in-depth stuff only KK can answer.