Quake has no Personality, Since When?

[Rudolph]

Personally, I have a similar relationship to Quake as I do with Duke Nukem 3D in the sense that there is a lot of things I love about the game (most of the arsenal, especially the Nailgun and the Grenade Launcher, the music and sound design, etc.), but I am not as eager to revisit it as I would with Doom 1 to 64. Like Duke Nukem 3D, later episodes introduce some annoying enemies that I do not care for, namely the Spawn and the Vore, and the levels just do not feel as memorable or attractive as the first episode. In fact, most of it is a bit of a blur and off the top of my head, I would struggle to name or even describe any of them past Dimension of the Doomed - with the possible exception of Shub-Niggurath's Pit, of course. I still prefer Quake 1 to Duke Nukem 3D, but I cannot help but find it to be ultimately a less interesting/complete Doom.

 

I do have good memories of Scourge of Armagon, most likely due to its more consistent level design and some of its additions.

Edited March 23, 2023 by Rudolph

[Individualised]

47 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

Personally, I have a similar relationship to Quake as I do with Duke Nukem 3D in the sense that there is a lot of things I love about the game (most of the arsenal, especially the Nailgun and the Grenade Launcher, the music and sound design, etc.), but I am not as eager to revisit it as I would with Doom 1 to 64. Like Duke Nukem 3D, later episodes introduce some annoying enemies that I do not care for, namely the Spawn and the Vore, and the levels just do not feel as memorable or attractive as the first episode. In fact, most of it is a bit of a blur and off the top of my head, I would struggle to name or even describe any of them past Dimension of the Doomed - with the possible exception of Shub-Niggurath's Pit, of course. I still prefer Quake 1 to Duke Nukem 3D, but I cannot help but find it to be ultimately a less interesting/complete Doom.

 

I do have good memories of Scourge of Armagon, most likely due to its more consistent level design and some of its additions.

I find it interesting how different people experience Quake in different ways. For me, the game starts to really pick up after Dimension of the Doomed.

[DNSKILL5]

I played Quake at a young age not too long after it came out, and at the time I thought Quake and DN3D were the best graphics ever in video games. Before then all I had seen was 8 and 16 bit games on the Nintendos. Quake had a more dark visual, and was really impressive looking through a CRT. Duke 3D, while more colorful, felt more realistic to me visually but not as scary (though there were moments). At some point, the computer we had shit the bed, and I couldn’t play these games again for several years. By the time I did get to play them again, I was shocked at how my visual memory remembered the games vs the reality. I mean, it was the same game and it brought back memories, but what I remembered in my mind looked far more advanced as far as graphics go. Maybe it’s because at the time when I first played them they were the best graphics I saw and by the time I was able to return to them I had seen far more advanced graphics, but it was a really weird phenomenon for me. 
 

Quake is drab and has a very dark feel to the game. People say it’s all brown and dull, but I think that was the point. It’s supposed to feel unsettling.

[Rudolph]

37 minutes ago, Individualised said:

I find it interesting how different people experience Quake in different ways. For me, the game starts to really pick up after Dimension of the Doomed.

Why is that?

 

I guess another reason why I prefer Doom and Quake II to Quake 1 is that the latter has the exact same tracklist for every episode. I know this is a technical limitation of the CD-ROM format and Quake II reuses tracks too, but given its level structure, it does not feel as jarring.

Edited March 23, 2023 by Rudolph

[BGreener]

18 hours ago, Individualised said:

Isn't this the whole point of the game anyway? I don't understand the argument that Quake has too many contrasting enemies or themes or whatever when the whole "dimension clash" thing is literally a big part of the story. That criticism also contradicts the argument that Quake's level aesthetics are dull and boring, because Quake features a variety of level themes for the same reason.

It’s interesting how much of each game’s conflicts are the result of teleportation. Doom and Quake 1’s teleporting/“slipgate” experiments lead to each game’s subsequent invasions from otherworldly forces, Quake 2’s main enemy faction  are able to invade Earth from a long distance due to having “slipgate tech”, and some elder gods got bored by Quake 3 and teleported everyone to the “arena eternal”.

 

@DNSKILL5 “Peoplesay it’s all brown and dull, but I think that was the point. It’s supposed to feel unsettling.”

 

I’ve ran into this comment occasionally when people are regarding Quake’s tone and setting. It’s a complaint I’ve rarely if ever seen when people are talking about something like the Silent Hill games; it’s much more understood that things in a SH game are supposed to be grey, foggy, and rusty.

[smeghammer]

I have had Quake since release. Loved it then, still do. I downloaded a new engine for Quake last week actually - Ironwail - triggered by this post:

 

and the OG and old maps still look excellent and play beautifully. This engine has some great QoL improvements and nicely offers your quake mods and maps directly in the menu system.

 

I know there are criticisms of Quake, but it still appeals -particularly now with the ability to use. build and play with many more brushes. Exemplified of course by Arcane Dimensions. 

 

 

Edited March 23, 2023 by smeghammer

[Wad overdose]

53 minutes ago, BGreener said:

It’s interesting how much of each game’s conflicts are the result of teleportation. Doom and Quake 1’s teleporting/“slipgate” experiments lead to each game’s subsequent invasions from otherworldly forces, Quake 2’s main enemy faction  are able to invade Earth from a long distance due to having “slipgate tech”, and some elder gods got bored by Quake 3 and teleported everyone to the “arena eternal”.

 

@DNSKILL5 “Peoplesay it’s all brown and dull, but I think that was the point. It’s supposed to feel unsettling.”

 

I’ve ran into this comment occasionally when people are regarding Quake’s tone and setting. It’s a complaint I’ve rarely if ever seen when people are talking about something like the Silent Hill games; it’s much more understood that things in a SH game are supposed to be grey, foggy, and rusty.

I have a feeling some of that you read it from here,syncerror aka adam Pyle is the creator of all current lore and dev of game who still supports it soon in quake champions in summer or spring update will add sand style map themed to corridors of time domain from dissolution of eternity,wendell gilman is general director of slipgate complex and he created some of vadrigars aka the Dreamlands/arena eternal elder gods planning as they he's vassals i mean this is goroth, cthalha, ithagnal and volkerh.

Edited March 23, 2023 by Wad overdose

[BGreener]

@Wad overdose 

Moreso than the other IdSoft shooters, people seem to have the most fun trying to make connections and build bridges between Quake 1 and 2. It’s not to say I haven’t seen people trying to string together all of their older shooters, just that I’ve seen it most between the first two Quakes. I also feel that it is so because they’re both called “Quake”, and wonder if people would be as interested at linking the two if they were named differently.

 

(…guys, is this “general Quake discussion” okay, or should I focus more specifically on the topic at hand?)

[DNSKILL5]

I feel like connecting the two Quake games together could work if they are considered separate realities that end up crossing each other due to the Stroggs accessing the slipgates or something like the Quake entity opening a slipgate in the Q2 dimension resulting in the Ranger crossing paths with the Strogg, but I don’t think it would make sense if they were happening within the same timeline otherwise.

Edited March 23, 2023 by DNSKILL5

[Individualised]

3 hours ago, BGreener said:

It’s interesting how much of each game’s conflicts are the result of teleportation. Doom and Quake 1’s teleporting/“slipgate” experiments lead to each game’s subsequent invasions from otherworldly forces, Quake 2’s main enemy faction  are able to invade Earth from a long distance due to having “slipgate tech”, and some elder gods got bored by Quake 3 and teleported everyone to the “arena eternal”.

Half-Life is another game with a "invasion caused by something related to teleportation" storyline.

[xdarkmasterx]

7 hours ago, Rudolph said:

Quote

For me, the game starts to really pick up after Dimension of the Doomed.

 

Why is that?

 

 

For me personally it's simply because you have more weapons to use, and earlier too. I just love rapidly switching weapons (instant switch FTW) to destroy enemies in an instant, almost like a precursor to Doom Eternal's quickswap combos. Beats the hell out of pumping shotgun and base nailgun shots into ogres and fiends while they slowly amble towards you :p

Edited March 23, 2023 by xdarkmasterx

[Dreamskull]

I feel like you guys are missing out on the bigger picture of Quake 1. You can just connect a portal from A to B. All consideration goes out the window because whatever portal can cut straight through whatever matters to you. Time and/or space doesnt pattern after whims, especially when theres lovecraft entity around. Quake 1 deals with this concept more than the other games do, the clash so to speak is the point. You can get lost in it and never find your way back.

[Dreamskull]

Its is very strange how a lot of good games are product of story involving teleportation gone wrong.

[Individualised]

27 minutes ago, Dreamskull said:

Its is very strange how a lot of good games are product of story involving teleportation gone wrong.

Almost all of the big name 90s FPSes are. It's no coincidence of course, they're trying to mimic Doom - but I don't think there was anything wrong with that because it was a kinda "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" situation. So those who use that as an argument for Quake not having a distinct personality from Doom must say the same thing about Half-Life for example.

[Rudolph]

2 hours ago, Individualised said:

So those who use that as an argument for Quake not having a distinct personality from Doom must say the same thing about Half-Life for example.

No, because there is so much more to Half-Life than just its Doom-like premise, e.g. the realistic environments, the memorable NPC banter, the greater emphasis on story and the fairly unique bestiary (including the US military!). It is not just Doom in 3D environments and a darker, gothic art direction.

Edited March 28, 2023 by Rudolph

[Individualised]

3 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

No, because there is so much more to Half-Life than just its Doom-like premise, e.g. the realistic environments, the memorable NPC banter, the greater emphasis on story, the fairly unique bestiary (including a realistic US military), etc. It is not just Doom in 3D environments and a darker, gothic art direction.

I guess you're right there, but I still feel that Quake's art direction and atmosphere is enough to distinguish it from Doom,

[Rudolph]

11 hours ago, Individualised said:

I guess you're right there, but I still feel that Quake's art direction and atmosphere is enough to distinguish it from Doom,

I guess my biggest issue with Quake is that it feels sort of half-baked: the art direction and atmosphere are nice, but the game itself essentially plays like a spiritual sequel to Doom because of its extremely similar gameplay loop and as such I just cannot see the game as anything else.

 

I get a somewhat similar feeling with Overwatch, which to is basically Team Fortress 2.5: sure, Overwatch is tonally and aesthetically different from Valve's game, but at the end of the day, it is functionally the same game as well as a far cry from what Blizzard originally had in mind.

Edited March 28, 2023 by Rudolph

[Individualised]

Just now, Rudolph said:

I do not think the art direction and atmosphere are the problem so much as Quake itself feeling sort of half-baked.

There's some parts of Quake that feel unfinished or rushed but I can't really put my finger on what exactly gives me that feeling. The fact that most of the episodes are missing proper boss fights might be one reason why. It's not enough to really detract from the experience though, it doesn't feel as half-baked as say Final Doom (with it's reuse of the Icon of Sin... twice) and I still love Final Doom.

[Rudolph]

1 minute ago, Individualised said:

it doesn't feel as half-baked as say Final Doom (with it's reuse of the Icon of Sin... twice) and I still love Final Doom.

Well, Final Doom was never meant to be anything more than additional mapsets for Doom II, so I do not see it as a fair comparison.

[BGreener]

12 hours ago, Individualised said:

I guess you're right there, but I still feel that Quake's art direction and atmosphere is enough to distinguish it from Doom,

I can agree with that, even if it can be hard for me to distinguish things personally since I like to overemphasize the ‘Doom/FPS template’ running through all of these 90’s shooters. I can also get behind the idea that it was “half-baked”, reinforced from discussion earlier in the thread about how it’s development didn’t start as the FPS it ended up being.

 

Even so, what they ended up with was pretty friggin’ cool. Maybe it’s because they just came out with Doom and knew what they were doing, but these guys created one hell of a foundation with Quake. Expansions ended up being fun, and even some of the more fun levelsets these days don’t have to mess with the core gameplay that much if at all.

 

In retrospect, that’s something I’ve noticed about them three big IdSoft shooters back then: They would start out decent enough before being further improved and realized through expansions and other improvements (for the record, I kind of lump Doom 2 closer to “expansion” territory.)

Edited March 28, 2023 by BGreener

[Rudolph]

If there is a Quake V that serves as a direct continuation to Quake 1, I would be curious to see how Id intends to set it apart from Doom.

[Jules451]

6 hours ago, Rudolph said:

If there is a Quake V that serves as a direct continuation to Quake 1, I would be curious to see how Id intends to set it apart from Doom.

Atmosphere would probably play a big part in it. Doom was known to be a somewhat scary game back then, but it clearly isn't today. It might have heaps of demonic imagery but it's just way too colorful, with a cheerful MIDI soundtrack and silly-looking demons to be really scary. Doom 4 also kind of established the idea in the official lore that the actual threat aren't the demons, but rather the Doomguy himself with respect to them. He's the hunter, and they are the prey.

 

Quake on the other hand really tried to emphasize its tense, horror(ish) atmosphere, with its dark visuals, otherwordly locations, atmospheric soundtrack, Lovecraftian monster design, and so forth. Unlike in Doom, you do kind of feel like you're the one being hunted, trapped in these strange dimensions with everything out to get you. Heck, Quake's monsters themselves are some of the most aggressive I know of in an FPS game. Fiends want to kill you that badly. All of this is something that still holds up really well in my eyes, along with the streamlined, fast and balanced gameplay (well, aside from the Spawns) inherited from Doom. Making a sequel with an emphasis on these elements would really have the potential to make a game with its own distinct personality, IMO.

Edited March 28, 2023 by Jules451

[Rudolph]

59 minutes ago, Jules451 said:

Doom was known to be a somewhat scary game back then, but it clearly isn't today.

Have you forgotten about Doom 3? :P

 

Both Quake 1 and Quake IV struggled to set themselves apart from Doom in my opinion: just like Quake 1 plays in many ways like a full 3D Doom game, Quake IV felt in many ways like Doom 3.5 to me. So just how do you make a Quake V that does not feel like a Doom Eternal reskin/spin-off?

Edited March 28, 2023 by Rudolph

[Individualised]

I just saw someone on a YouTube comments section argue that the next Quake should not be a continuation of the Quake 1 storyline because it doesn't have one. Obviously I don't agree with this - Quake 1 does have a story line and an interesting premise - just because it uses text screens instead of cutscenes and has more abstract levels doesn't mean it has no story. I wonder if this is a mainstream (as in, your average gamer who mostly plays modern games) opinion though, and if this could influence what id Software might do next in a Quake 5.

[Dreamskull]

I guess its true, people dont get it. Its quite simple, yet its just whatever to people.

It would be easy to accept if they werent so vocal about being wrong.

No, I dont mean to be mean, its just kinda frustrating and its everywhere at once.

 

Can anyone actually talk about Quake 1 without bringing up comparisons to other games?

To me, it feels like its a fish out of water experience, stranded/exploration thing, meant to be jarring and confusing.

There's that foreboding unnatural element, not quite alien, but also not at all conventional either.

I ended up leaning into the fast paced physics, especially movement, helps to sell the setting.

Edited April 9, 2023 by Dreamskull

[BGreener]

On 3/28/2023 at 9:09 AM, Rudolph said:

If there is a Quake V that serves as a direct continuation to Quake 1, I would be curious to see how Id intends to set it apart from Doom.

If they were to make a new singleplayer Quake campaign, they would have to go significantly out of their way to separate it from what they’ve established with Doom since 2016 and its sequel. It might be too significant of a difference that could upset the current playerbase they’ve been establishing. It’d be interesting to see a new AAA Quake campaign, but my expectations are on them just sticking with more Doom.

 

Not helping Quake’s case are the new Dooms dipping into some of its original identity: A prominent feature of Quake was playing as someone who bore a resemblance to the “knights” of the setting using a teleporter as an excuse to see a wide variety of levels. To a large extent, that now describes Doomguy with Eternal. @whatup876 first pointed this out to me.

 

18 hours ago, Rudolph said:

 Have you forgotten about Doom 3? :P

For what it’s worth, that post by @Jules451 seems more aimed at how the current year playerbase regards Doom’s horror angle and elements. Less where it was aimed nearly 20 years ago for D3 or nearly 30 years ago for the originals

 

@Individualised One thing they could do to separate a new Quake from current Doom is to further embrace that take on “minimalist story telling”, having players piece together the world through environmental details rather than large text logs and major exposition.

But as referenced earlier in this post, I’m not sure how the current “idsoft playerbase” would take to digesting that.

Edited March 29, 2023 by BGreener
givin’ credit where it’s due, dudes

[Rudolph]

@BGreener Yeah, it is going to be rather tricky to set the two franchises apart. Id might as well merge the two - something that was made possible by Doom Eternal introducing the notion of a multiverse - or decide to save the Quake IP for multiplayer games only, like the recent Quake Champions.

 

Kind of like what happened to the Unreal franchise.

Edited March 29, 2023 by Rudolph

[Mr. Freeze]

please no more multiverse crap, so sick of that already. let each franchise stand on their own. 

[Mr Masker]

5 minutes ago, Mr. Freeze said:

please no more multiverse crap, so sick of that already. let each franchise stand on their own. 

The devs aren't allowed to make new, interesting IPs! They must all be connected to the thing I like!

[Rudolph]

38 minutes ago, Mr. Freeze said:

please no more multiverse crap, so sick of that already. let each franchise stand on their own. 

Hard to do when two of your three flagship franchises involve dimensional travel! :P

 

32 minutes ago, Mr Masker said:

The devs aren't allowed to make new, interesting IPs! They must all be connected to the thing I like!

Well, the last time Id did try to come up with a brand new IP (RAGE), it did not turn out to be particularly interesting... :S

 

In fact, I am still surprised that it received a sequel, which I hear did not do particularly well either.

Edited March 29, 2023 by Rudolph