Quake has no Personality, Since When?

[Rudolph]

33 minutes ago, Fiber Wire said:

Similar guns, both are FPS games. Both made by Id.

Both involve pushing back against a demonic alien invasion (composed of both gun-toting humans and undead/demonic creatures) that came through dimensional portals, begin in a futuristic techbase setting that then gets replaced by more gothic and abstract environments. There are environmental hazards and traps, platforming segments and teleporting pads. The game uses an episodic format similar to Doom 1, there is not reloading mechanic, you get resupplied by picking up floating power-ups (including an invincibility one, a damage-boosting one and an hazard suit). There is an enemy that shoots a homing projectile (the Vore), one of the games' most dangerous enemies is a giant demon that is immune to splash damage (the Shambler) and has a deadly Arch-Vile-style hitscan attack with a distinct tell, Sandy Petersen has recently admitted that the Fiend is essentially what he wished Doom's Pinky/Demon turned out to be and the fight against Quake itself is very reminiscent of the Icon of Sin's.

 

I honestly do not see much of a difference mechanically and I doubt most players at the time would have either. Sure, maybe some would have lamented the less-colorful palette and the lack of returning staples like the Cacodemon or the Arch-Vile, but otherwise, in the absence of a Doom III, at the time, Quake 1 was easily the closest they got to a 3D Doom game.

Edited March 20, 2023 by Rudolph

[Fiber Wire]

I still don’t agree. They feel nothing alike when you play them. The movement and combat is much different. We can compare them and find every little thing that is similar between the two, but they are still completely different experiences from each other. Plenty of games from the time have similarities to Doom yet would not translate well to being a Doom 3. 

[Rudolph]

6 minutes ago, Fiber Wire said:

The movement and combat is much different.

Sure, but again, that is because Quake is a fully 3D game where jumping, crouching and aiming with the mouse are a core part of the gameplay loop. As I said, Return to Castle Wolfenstein is a completely different experience from Wolfenstein 3D, yet it is still accepted as a Wolfenstein game.

 

The movement and combat were also very different in both Doom 3 and Doom 2016 (the latter of which was overwhelmingly considered as a "return to form" despite playing nothing like Classic Doom, ironically enough), yet that does not make them less of Doom games.

Edited March 20, 2023 by Rudolph

[Individualised]

15 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

Both involve pushing back against a demonic alien invasion (composed of both gun-toting humans and undead/demonic creatures) that came through dimensional portals, begin in a futuristic techbase setting that then gets replaced by more gothic and abstract environments. There are environmental hazards and traps, platforming segments and teleporting pads. The game uses an episodic format similar to Doom 1, there is not reloading mechanic, you get resupplied by picking up floating power-ups (including an invincibility one, a damage-boosting one and an hazard suit). There is an enemy that shoots a homing projectile (the Vore), one of the games' most dangerous enemies is a giant demon that is immune to splash damage (the Shambler) and has a deadly Arch-Vile-style hitscan attack with a distinct tell, Sandy Petersen has recently admitted that the Fiend is essentially what he wished Doom's Pinky/Demon turned out to be and the fight against Quake itself is very reminiscent of the Icon of Sin's.

 

I honestly do not see much of a difference mechanically and I doubt most players at the time would have either. Sure, maybe some would have lamented the less-colorful palette and the lack of returning staples like the Cacodemon or the Arch-Vile, but otherwise, in the absence of a Doom III, at the time, Quake 1 was easily the closest they got to a 3D Doom game.

The atmosphere is really nothing like Doom, some of the similarities you listed are not even correct. Yes, the gameplay is similar but almost every FPS game of the time followed the same formula.

Edited March 20, 2023 by Individualised

[Rudolph]

5 minutes ago, Individualised said:

The atmosphere is really nothing like Doom

Why? Because it features a darker, more atmospheric soundtrack? Like I said, Playstation Doom already had that covered.

 

And again, to return (haha) to my Return to Castle Wolfenstein example, the latter's darker, grittier atmosphere is nothing like Wolfenstein 3D's quirky, colorful one, yet it is still accepted as a Wolfenstein game. Why would a Quake 1 rebranded as Doom III be any different?

Edited March 20, 2023 by Rudolph

[Guff dotD]

26 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

immune to splash damage (the Shambler)

Resistant, not immune.

IIRC it's 50% less damage from explosion-based weapons.

[Individualised]

9 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

Why? Because it features a darker, more atmospheric soundtrack? Like I said, Playstation Doom already had that covered.

No, I never even mentioned anything about the soundtrack. For one, the design architecture and feeling of the "techbases" (they're more like rusty, industrial buildings) is completely different from how Doom games approach it, whether that's the classic Doom trilogy, the Midway Doom games (PSX/Saturn Doom and Doom 64), Doom 3, or the modern Doom games. Then, as you progress through the later levels of each episode, and the later episodes, the levels become very varied and unique and are absolutely nothing like anything you'd see in Doom.

 

Some similarities that Quake does have to Doom that aren't just because of them following the tried-and-true 90s FPS formula is that many of the enemies and power-ups are equivalents to Doom ones. I guess that could be chalked up to them not really having much good ideas for new elements along those lines, especially considering many of the enemies were originally designed when Quake wasn't even an FPS.

 

I feel like most of my relevant thoughts were on my second post on the 1st page, which may have been missed as it was the last post on that page.

Edited March 20, 2023 by Individualised

[Fiber Wire]

I think Doom 64 rebranded as Doom 3 would be one thing, but not Quake. People (mainly critics) complained that Doom II was too much like the first game. If Quake was sold as Doom 3, they would’ve complained that it was too different. Also, RTCW came out nine years after Wolfenstein 3D so of course they wouldn’t play anything like each other. 

[Individualised]

1 minute ago, Fiber Wire said:

I think Doom 64 rebranded as Doom 3 would be one thing, but not Quake. People (mainly critics) complained that Doom II was too much like the first game. If Quake was sold as Doom 3, they would’ve complained that it was too different. Also, RTCW came out nine years after Wolfenstein 3D so of course they wouldn’t play anything like each other. 

Though I don't have a source for this, I was told a while ago that Doom 3 was a working title for Doom 64 (which makes sense, it was in development before Final Doom, and in fact started development soon after Doom 2 was released, making it one of the earliest Nintendo 64 titles to start development.) This can be backed up by the fact that a magazine preview for SNES Doom, which mistakenly assumed that the title that was being developed for Nintendo 64 was the same game, refers to the game as "Doom 3".

[Guff dotD]

44 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

Return to Castle Wolfenstein is a completely different experience from Wolfenstein 3D, yet it is still accepted as a Wolfenstein game.

 

Wolfenstein has been a top-down stealth game (1981's Castle Wolfenstein), a first-person 2.5D FPS (1992, Wolfenstein 3D), a fully 3D semi-stealth-based FPS (2001 RTCW), that one game with the Veil (2009), and an alternate-reality sci-fi dystopian FPS (the Machinegames Wolfenstein games.)

 

Not to mention the Wolfenstein RPG series.

Edited March 20, 2023 by Guff dotD

[Rudolph]

2 hours ago, Individualised said:

For one, the design architecture and feeling of the "techbases" (they're more like rusty, industrial buildings) is completely different from how Doom games approach it, whether that's the classic Doom trilogy, the Midway Doom games (PSX/Saturn Doom and Doom 64), Doom 3, or the modern Doom games. Then, as you progress through the later levels of each episode, and the later episodes, the levels become very varied and unique and are absolutely nothing like anything you'd see in Doom.

That is not quite true: Doom 64 in particular borrows heavily from Quake in terms of visuals and atmosphere, which is even more evidence in my mind that Quake could have been a Doom game. Also, if Quake had been Doom III, those "very varied and unique" levels you mentioned would have been seen in Doom. ;)

 

2 hours ago, Guff dotD said:

Wolfenstein has been a top-down stealth game (1981's Castle Wolfenstein)

Yeah, but I sincerely doubt that many people have played those or are even aware of their existence.

 

People did not play Wolfenstein 3D because it was the much-anticipated sequel to Beyond Castle Wolfenstein.

 

2 hours ago, Fiber Wire said:

If Quake was sold as Doom 3, they would’ve complained that it was too different.

But again, Doom 2016 is very different from its predecessors: in many ways, you could say it is actually closer to Metroid Prime because of the body awareness, the greater emphasis on platforming, the suit upgrades and the ability to regain health and ammo from killing enemies.

 

So yeah, I just do not see what makes Doom 2016 more of a Doom game than Quake as "Doom III", since basically everything we attribute to Quake 1 has been done in Doom since. And to link back to the OP, that is essentially why I do not find Quake 1 and Doom very different ultimately.

Edited March 20, 2023 by Rudolph

[Individualised]

35 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

That is not quite true: Doom 64 in particular borrows heavily from Quake in terms of visuals and atmosphere, which is even more evidence in my mind that Quake could have been a Doom game. Also, if Quake had been Doom III, those "very varied and unique" levels you mentioned would have been seen in Doom. ;)

And if Picross 3D: Round 2 for the Nintendo 3DS had been Doom 4, those 370+ challenging 3D block puzzles would have also been seen in Doom.

 

On a more serious note, I don't know if it was the intention, but either way, Doom 64 does not resemble Quake very much to me, except maybe for the dramatically dark levels. I do admit there are some later levels in Doom 64 that are kinda Quake-ish, but they're still distinctly Doom to me. I don't really know how to describe it. You wanna know what game does resemble Doom 64 a lot more though? Quake 2...

35 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

People did not play Wolfenstein 3D because it was the much-anticipated sequel to Beyond Castle Wolfenstein.

The original Castle Wolfenstein was a quite popular Apple II game during it's day, so I would not be surprised if some people picked up Wolfenstein 3D based on name recognition alone.

Edited March 20, 2023 by Individualised

[Klaesick]

4 hours ago, Individualised said:

But, as I said, to a newcomer, Quake 1 could easily feel like a watered down Doom in terms of atmosphere, especially when only playing the first episode.

I honestly prefer Quakes' atmosphere over Doom's (Atleast from what I've seen). Shareware Quake does feel a lot like Doom though, but I think it's unfair to call it "watered-down", because there's enough to separate it in my opinion that I can easily tell the different between Doom and Quake. But that's just me, not sure what others think.

1 hour ago, Individualised said:

On a more serious note, I don't know if it was the intention, but either way, Doom 64 does not resemble Quake very much to me, except maybe for the dramatically dark levels. I do admit there are some later levels in Doom 64 that are kinda Quake-ish, but they're still distinctly Doom to me. I don't really know how to describe it. You wanna know what game does resemble Doom 64 a lot more though? Quake 2...

Both games are grungy, have lots of brown, have dark ambient music, and the weapons look somewhat similar, so I can see where that comparison comes from (Even if I disagree).

Edited March 20, 2023 by Klaesick

[PsychEyeball]

People who say Quake has no personality never played it. Because it sure didn't remotely play closely to Doom. The monster count was a little lower than Doom, but the game felt so much faster and meaner. It's amongst the first 3D shooters to factor vertical aiming and where mouselook allowed you to look and face everywhere in a map, instead of just turning left or right. The full 3D environments, while basic looking, where impressive on the grounds that for the first time, everything was in 3D (hopefully this won't start a 2.5D vs 3D argument because that ain't my point).

 

Quake was about bunny hopping through medieval castles and the occasional tech base while fighting outworldly horrors and the enemy cast does well in that regard. You can't say that the game which features ogres with chainsaws and grenades as a low-tier enemy doesn't have attitude.

 

Some Build games went further with ideas than Quake did, like Blood or Shadow Warrior. But while both of these games are swimming hardcore with ideas, they don't always mesh all well together in a fully coherent whole. Quake has a much more conservative approach in comparison, but it wastes none of its time or assets. You ain't lived until you quad damaged your way through rooms full of enemies while being invincible. It's simple, but it feels so good.

 

re: Doom 64 vs. Quake - I don't really think both games are that similar. Quake has a much better sense of speed or action while Doom 64 is slower, yet pays much more attention to its atmosphere. I'd dare say Quake's sound design is the main architect of its atmosphere while Doom 64 has stronger visual design to help establish the mood, alongside its alien soundtrack. I'd concede that MAP13: Dark Citadel looks somewhat Quake-ish, but that would be about the only place both games meet each other in feeling. Otherwise, both games do their own thing and that's cool.

[Klaesick]

12 minutes ago, PsychEyeball said:

People who say Quake has no personality never played it. Because it sure didn't remotely play closely to Doom. The monster count was a little lower than Doom, but the game felt so much faster and meaner. It's amongst the first 3D shooters to factor vertical aiming and where mouselook allowed you to look and face everywhere in a map, instead of just turning left or right. The full 3D environments, while basic looking, where impressive on the grounds that for the first time, everything was in 3D (hopefully this won't start a 2.5D vs 3D argument because that ain't my point).

 

Quake was about bunny hopping through medieval castles and the occasional tech base while fighting outworldly horrors and the enemy cast does well in that regard. You can't say that the game which features ogres with chainsaws and grenades as a low-tier enemy doesn't have attitude.

 

Some Build games went further with ideas than Quake did, like Blood or Shadow Warrior. But while both of these games are swimming hardcore with ideas, they don't always mesh all well together in a fully coherent whole. Quake has a much more conservative approach in comparison, but it wastes none of its time or assets. You ain't lived until you quad damaged your way through rooms full of enemies while being invincible. It's simple, but it feels so good.

 

re: Doom 64 vs. Quake - I don't really think both games are that similar. Quake has a much better sense of speed or action while Doom 64 is slower, yet pays much more attention to its atmosphere. I'd dare say Quake's sound design is the main architect of its atmosphere while Doom 64 has stronger visual design to help establish the mood, alongside its alien soundtrack. I'd concede that MAP13: Dark Citadel looks somewhat Quake-ish, but that would be about the only place both games meet each other in feeling. Otherwise, both games do their own thing and that's cool.

You expressed my thoughts better then I could. Well said.

[Cruduxy Pegg]

Play Quake 64 and you'll never have to worry about it looking too brown ever again! That mod even happens to come in the pack on steam in the addons menu! 

[Dreamskull]

Thanks, these are all great responses. I mostly agree that Quake is faster and meaner than Doom.

[magicsofa]

Not only necro'd but pretending to be OP... that's the juice right there man

[ENEMY!!!]

I remember the glowing reviews that Quake 1 and 2 got in PC Zone magazine here in the UK, and both reviews compared them to Doom.  The Quake 1 review said something along the lines of, "'But that sounds like Doom', you might say to your mummy.  And it's true, Quake is Doom", and the Quake 2 review finished with, "It's Doom III and it's brilliant".  I remember disagreeing with this because although many of the gameplay mechanics, weapons, powerups and to a lesser extent the enemies are pretty similar, I always thought playing Quake 1 was a very different experience from playing the Doom games, and that Quake 2 was a different experience again. 

 

I got into Quake 1 multiplayer very quickly after it came out, but until 2021 I never really got into the singleplayer because of the usual criticisms: not enough colour, more generic enemy roster, less satisfying weapons.  However, I regard Dimension of the Machine (one of the new episodes in the remaster) as one of the most enjoyable episodes that I've played for any first person shooter, and I've had a much greater appreciation for Quake 1 ever since, especially with the current mod scene producing more varied maps and encounters with the aid of the likes of Arcane Dimensions, Alkaline and Makkon's textures.

[Rudolph]

6 hours ago, Individualised said:

And if Picross 3D: Round 2 for the Nintendo 3DS had been Doom 4, those 370+ challenging 3D block puzzles would have also been seen in Doom.

If you are no longer interested in having this conversation, you should just say so.

[Individualised]

34 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

If you are no longer interested in having this conversation, you should just say so.

It was a joking statement, but I was also making a point. Yes, if Quake was Doom then Quake levels would be Doom. It's not, so I don't see how it was relevant.

Edited March 21, 2023 by Individualised

[Klaesick]

14 hours ago, Rudolph said:

begin in a futuristic techbase setting that then gets replaced by more gothic and abstract environments.

If there's one thing I'd call Hell in Classic Doom, it certainly wouldn't be gothic. Abstract (like you said) and Techno-Organic with some Wood and Marble thrown in, is a much better descriptor.

[Klaesick]

14 hours ago, Rudolph said:

So yeah, I am fairly convinced that Quake 1 - either as is or with minor alterations - would have been accepted as "Doom III" if Id Software chose to rebrand and market it as such.

I'm certainly glad they didn't! Quake was an idea long before Doom at Id, and I'm glad they actually got to commit to implementing some of the original fantasy/lovecraft vision instead of "Let's just make Doom again". 
I don't think "Quake as Doom 3" would've made the game any better. It would probably feel more stale and less risky then what Quake wanted to be.

[Dreamskull]

I think Quake has got enough difference that it could be counted seperate from Doom. The weapons and its beastiary seem to have its own thing going. The portals are more whispy than in Doom and of course the free-look verticality lends itself toward combat; also water is a thing, dont forget that.

Edited March 21, 2023 by Dreamskull

[Rudolph]

6 hours ago, Klaesick said:

I'm certainly glad they didn't! Quake was an idea long before Doom at Id, and I'm glad they actually got to commit to implementing some of the original fantasy/lovecraft vision instead of "Let's just make Doom again".

But see, that is what they essentially ended up doing when the initial plan to make it a RPG had to be scrapped.

 

That is why I say they might as well have renamed it "Doom III" and gotten away with it, especially given how the actual Doom 3 also ended up being a radically different product too - even more so than Quake 1, which all things considered plays very much like what people would have expected a 3D Doom game to - and being much closer to Half-Life and even System Shock 2. Granted, Doom 3 proved to be divisive, but that did not prevent it from being a considerable success at the time.

 

6 hours ago, Klaesick said:

If there's one thing I'd call Hell in Classic Doom, it certainly wouldn't be gothic.

Columns, gargoyles, (twisted) religious imagery... heck, there is even a level called "Unholy Cathedral"!

 

Calling it "gothic" might be a bit reductive, I agree, but keep in mind that there is a significant technological gap between the first two Doom games and Quake 1 in terms of visual and lightning capabilities. Given how the real Doom 3 ended up being much darker than Classic Doom, chances are that a Doom game made from scratch for the Quake Engine would have also ramped up the sinister and disturbing imagery.

Edited March 21, 2023 by Rudolph

[Koko Ricky]

Quake had a very troubled development, and as a result the themes are noticeably more disparate than Doom's. Despite this, the mixture of Lovecraftian, industrial, medieval, occult, and gothic all work surprisingly well together, a testament to the incredible art direction. It has a very sinister and oppressive mood that PSX/N64 Doom also captured. 

 

I've been playing the remaster and some of these community maps feel like nightmares; expansive ghost towns littered with haphazard planks of wood, or subterranean dungeons teeming with booby traps. Mods like Arcane Dimensions showcase how dedicated modders are to expanding on Quake's nihilistic alchemy. 

 

Then there's the sound design. We all know the industrial ambient score is incredible, but the sound effects are equally dark. I would describe its aesthetic as pained. There's so much focus on dry, guttural suffering. Compare that to the cartoonish "AHH-OH-AH!!!!" pain sounds of Doom's former humans. 

Edited March 21, 2023 by Koko Ricky

[Rudolph]

1 hour ago, Koko Ricky said:

Quake had a very troubled development, and as a result the themes are noticeably more disparate than Doom's.

A lightning (gun) in a bottle, basically!

 

This got me a bit worried about a full-fledged Quake 1 sequel that deliberately seek to emulate what was more or less created on accident. It is like all those new retro shooters that seek to replicate the aesthetics, but for the most part do not quite nail (gun) them. :P

 

1 hour ago, Koko Ricky said:

Then there's the sound design. We all know the industrial ambient score is incredible, but the sound effects are equally dark. I would describe its aesthetic as pained. There's so much focus on dry, guttural suffering. Compare that to the cartoonish "AHH-OH-AH!!!!" pain sounds of Doom's former humans.

I believe this is all due to the collaboration with Trent Reznor of Nine Inch Nails fame.

 

Also, to Quake 1's credit, every enemy has its own unique sound palette, if I am not mistaken.

[Klaesick]

6 hours ago, Rudolph said:

But see, that is what they essentially ended up doing when the initial plan to make it a RPG had to be scrapped.

 

That is why I say they might as well have renamed it "Doom III" and gotten away with it, especially given how the actual Doom 3 also ended up being a radically different product too - even more so than Quake 1, which all things considered plays very much like what people would have expected a 3D Doom game to - and being much closer to Half-Life and even System Shock 2. Granted, Doom 3 proved to be divisive, but that did not prevent it from being a considerable success at the time.

 

Columns, gargoyles, (twisted) religious imagery... heck, there is even a level called "Unholy Cathedral"!

 

Calling it "gothic" might be a bit reductive, I agree, but keep in mind that there is a significant technological gap between the first two Doom games and Quake 1 in terms of visual and lightning capabilities. Given how the real Doom 3 ended up being much darker than Classic Doom, chances are that a Doom game made from scratch for the Quake Engine would have also ramped up the sinister and disturbing imagery.

I still disagree with you. Just because Doom 3 ended being spooky and traded out the classic games campy-side don't mean Quake should've been "Doom III".
Taking Quake as it is and just renaming it "Doom III" would've made even more controversial then the actual Doom 3 was at the time. The completly different bestiary, the medieval/lovecraft angle, the Nordic rune stuff, the removal of the Plasma Weapons and the Chainsaw,
Again, making Quake "Doom III" would've probably made more stale then what Quake was.

On 3/20/2023 at 9:23 AM, Individualised said:

I actually feel like Quake 2 is more like Doom than Quake 1 is. Somewhere in between Doom and Half-Life, I think. Now Quake 2 is the game they could have easily replaced the enemies and power-ups with their Doom equivalents, changed the storyline a bit to reference Hell, and could have easily released as a Doom game and no one would have batted an eye. Quake 1 on the other hand, now that I have fully experienced it, is nothing like Doom at all in terms of atmosphere. But, as I said, to a newcomer, Quake 1 could easily feel like a watered down Doom in terms of atmosphere, especially when only playing the first episode.

 

I haven't played Quake 2 that much, but it does lean into the Sci-Fi more then Quake 1 does, like Doom. Could you expand on this further?

[Dreamskull]

The comparison doesnt work because Doom 3 sucks. Doom 1 and 2 dont. Quake 1 and 2 also pass, but Quake 1 is thematically different than Quake 2.

 

To answer the post above, Quake 1 deals with using strange "slipgate" portals to travel into forgotten lands to battle the influence of a lovecraftian horror. A chunk of enemies are birthed from a single entity. Quake 2 is a "paratrooper" drop pod from a spaceship onto an alien planet to battle an alien race. The Strogg essentially get their hands on people and subject them to cybernetic surgury, borgifying them.

Edited March 21, 2023 by Dreamskull

[Mr Masker]

16 minutes ago, Dreamskull said:

The comparison doesnt work because Doom 3 sucks.

In your opinion*