Quake has no Personality, Since When?

[Guff dotD]

8 hours ago, Rudolph said:

Columns, gargoyles, (twisted) religious imagery... heck, there is even a level called "Unholy Cathedral"!

 

Calling it "gothic" might be a bit reductive, I agree...

 

IMO Classic Doom isn't really 'Gothic'.

 

Gothism (is that a word?) would look more like Gothic DM IMO.

Colorful 2.5D Hell really isn't dark, sinister, or foreboding. Unlike Quake. IMO a big difference.

The Colorful palette of Classic Doom was a deliberate design choice, and they could've made the game desaturated with the 256(?) colors they had at the time.

[Rudolph]

3 hours ago, Klaesick said:

Just because Doom 3 ended being spooky and traded out the classic games campy-side don't mean Quake should've been "Doom III".

Well, here is the thing: I never said Quake 1 should have been Doom III so much as it could have been.

 

The change in bestiary and arsenal could have easily been justified by Doomguy finding himself up against a new threat that emerged in the wake of Hell's defeat. After all, just like Doom 1, Quake 1 is about fighting back against invaders from another dimension.

 

Heck, come to think of it, the scenario I have been describing here did happen, only instead of Quake 1 being sold as Doom III, Id's next game was sold as Quake II. Which is highly ironic, as Quake 1 has much more in common with Doom than Quake II has to Quake 1.

 

And regardless of what you think about Quake II, Id Software did get away with releasing as the sequel to Quake!

Edited March 21, 2023 by Rudolph

[Dreamskull]

Quake was made precisely because they wanted something different than Doom, but I cant deny your logic on that one Rudolph.

No, i dont like the idea, but its a fair point. Dont you dare say quake 1 is doom 3 though, thats a huge can of worms.

 

When I first played Doom 3 in its entirety, I was extremely salty about it afterwards. Doom 3 should NEVER be brought up. 

Thank goodness we were able to recover somewhat from the loss. I certainly did not enjoy that 10 year in between period.

 

 

Edited March 22, 2023 by Dreamskull

[Individualised]

8 hours ago, Klaesick said:

I haven't played Quake 2 that much, but it does lean into the Sci-Fi more then Quake 1 does, like Doom. Could you expand on this further?

I don't think it can easily be pinpointed to specific details - but it's definitely much more Doom than Quake 1 is.

[Dreamskull]

Youre going to have to explain that one.

[Mr. Freeze]

5 hours ago, Dreamskull said:

When I first played Doom 3 in its entirety, I was extremely salty about it afterwards. Doom 3 should NEVER be brought up. 

Thank goodness we were able to recover somewhat from the loss. I certainly did not enjoy that 10 year in between period.

 

Nah I gotta push back against this a bit. Doom 3 might not have been " a real Doom game" but it had the best atmosphere of the series, great gameplay on it's own accord, and the absolute best depiction of Hell that Doom has ever portrayed. 

[ReaperAA]

8 hours ago, Dreamskull said:

When I first played Doom 3 in its entirety, I was extremely salty about it afterwards. Doom 3 should NEVER be brought up. 

Thank goodness we were able to recover somewhat from the loss. I certainly did not enjoy that 10 year in between period.

 

Doom 3 is not THAT bad. Sure it is considered the black sheep now, but it is still generally solid game in its own right. Up until the release of new Dooms, it was id software's best selling game.

[Edward850]

8 hours ago, Dreamskull said:

When I first played Doom 3 in its entirety, I was extremely salty about it afterwards. Doom 3 should NEVER be brought up. 

Doom 3 is good, actually. Sorry you had to find out this way.

[hybridial]

After replaying it I've generally reconsidered my stance on Doom 3. I think any game called Doom 3 was doomed to be a bit of a disappointment because you're following Doom 1 and Doom 2, and really that goes for any game carrying the Doom name. It's just too great a legacy to really live up to, and I do feel that way about Nu-Doom as well. 

 

Having said that Doom 3 is fine. I didn't get far into the expansion though because I hate the grabber and the way it's implemented.  

 

I don't really think Quake 1 is anything like Doom at all other than some broad strokes in regards to the gameplay and even then I still think it plays quite differently.

[Biz!]

5 hours ago, Mr. Freeze said:

 

Nah I gotta push back against this a bit. Doom 3 might not have been " a real Doom game" but it had the best atmosphere of the series, great gameplay on it's own accord, and the absolute best depiction of Hell that Doom has ever portrayed. 

Finally, someone said it,

 

Yeah, I'm just about halfway through Doom 3 and I made it to the first bright area in the game, like, actually lightened up, and it amazed me at the time, Doom 4 also does something nice with the environment, the fog & tint n' all that give it a big personality.

[Fiber Wire]

I remember most people really liking Doom 3 when it came out. It wasn’t until later that people seemed to bandwagon disliking it.

[BGreener]

8 hours ago, Dreamskull said:

Youre going to have to explain that one.

 

Are you referring to what @Individualised said about Quake 2 being "much more Doom than Quake 1 is"?

 

It has a larger and more varied enemy roster and it's better about consistently using them throughout the campaign, while also bringing back an "archvile-like" enemy in the form of the medic; for comparison, Quake's campaign keeps all the grunts and enforcers and doggos - mostly the game's equivalent to zombies and imps - only to the start of each episode. It also has a larger weapon roster with weapon progression that more closely mirrors Doom. You would have an easier time "fitting Doom" into Quake 2 than you would into Quake 1, if that makes any sense...

 

To throw my hat into the discussion, I think the "idsoft shoot-em-up template" runs through Doom, Quake, Quake 2, even Doom 3 - even today with the newer ones.

That being said...

 

Spoiler

I still think Quake 2 should have been named something else.

 

Edited March 22, 2023 by BGreener

[Dreamskull]

That works up until we all admit to ourselves the truth. Quake 1 and Quake 2 are completely different. I for one prefer Rudolph's summerization.

 

I mostly agree that the weapons themselves, the ones between Doom 1 and 2 and Quake 2 are more similar than Quake 1, but thats really not the contention on the whole considering the overall feel for the experience on playthrough thematically is misaligned comparing Doom 1 and 2 with Quake 2.

 

I guess what Im saying is the framework of the game, both Doom 1 and 2 and Quake 1 are an escapism from mission control so to speak. Youre alone, lost and you gotta do what you do. That aspect isnt really stressed enough where it ought to be. Quake 2 plays out like a super commando.

 

Doom 1 and 2 and Quake 1 have this in common. Here, Quake 2 is the standout cranking the Descent Into Cerberon.

Edited March 22, 2023 by Dreamskull

[BGreener]

45 minutes ago, Dreamskull said:

I guess what Im saying is the framework of the game, both Doom 1 and 2 and Quake 1 are an escapism from mission control so to speak. Youre alone, lost and you gotta do what you do. That aspect isnt really stressed enough where it ought to be. Quake 2 plays out like a super commando.

 

Ah, that's much different than how I was regarding Quake 2's gameplay, encounters and combat. That's what I find is much more "Doom-like" about it over Q1, with @Individualised initially bringing up the idea that some aspects of Q2 would suit it better as a '3D Doom reskin' from enemies to story, themes and setting.

[Rudolph]

6 hours ago, hybridial said:

After replaying it I've generally reconsidered my stance on Doom 3. I think any game called Doom 3 was doomed to be a bit of a disappointment because you're following Doom 1 and Doom 2, and really that goes for any game carrying the Doom name.

To be fair, Id Software did themselves no favor by making Doom 3 to play more like Half-Life 2. But then again, it seems that every big shooter released around 2004 was trying to rival Half-Life 2 - with the possible exception of Painkiller.

Edited March 22, 2023 by Rudolph

[Individualised]

4 hours ago, BGreener said:

 

Are you referring to what @Individualised said about Quake 2 being "much more Doom than Quake 1 is"?

 

It has a larger and more varied enemy roster and it's better about consistently using them throughout the campaign, while also bringing back an "archvile-like" enemy in the form of the medic; for comparison, Quake's campaign keeps all the grunts and enforcers and doggos - mostly the game's equivalent to zombies and imps - only to the start of each episode. It also has a larger weapon roster with weapon progression that more closely mirrors Doom. You would have an easier time "fitting Doom" into Quake 2 than you would into Quake 1, if that makes any sense...

 

To throw my hat into the discussion, I think the "idsoft shoot-em-up template" runs through Doom, Quake, Quake 2, even Doom 3 - even today with the newer ones.

That being said...

 

  Reveal hidden contents

I still think Quake 2 should have been named something else.

 

Pretty much articulated the thoughts I couldn't say.

[Rudolph]

15 minutes ago, Individualised said:

I still think Quake 2 should have been named something else.

Well, it is not like Id Software did not try, but in the end, they just could not come up with anything better than "Quake II".

Edited March 22, 2023 by Rudolph

[Koko Ricky]

I think we should reroute the conversation back to Quake's aesthetics. There's so much to be said about id's choices and how the zeitgeist at that time played a significant role in the art style.

[Individualised]

14 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

Well, it is not like Id Software did not try, but in the end, they just could not come up with anything better than "Quake II".

True - I think it's pretty well known that Quake 2 was never meant to be Quake, but they ended up not being able to come up with a strong IP and just called it Quake II and slapped some Quake assets on top of it so that it wouldn't be too different. I guess your point is that they could have theoretically done the same with Quake 1 and called it Doom 3 if they changed a few things, but I don't think Quake 1 as it currently stands could have been released as Doom 3. Plus, Quake 1 and 2's multiplayer were very similar even if their campaigns were completely different games, which is probably why id were comfortable releasing it as Quake 2 as they knew multiplayer is the main mode of play for many people in Quake (hence Quake 3 not having a campaign). The same isn't true for the Doom trilogy and Quake 1.

^{_(anyway, as has been mentioned, this is getting a bit off-topic now. Maybe we should split this off into another thread.)}

Edited March 22, 2023 by Individualised

[Edward850]

1 hour ago, Rudolph said:

To be fair, Id Software did themselves no favor by making Doom 3 to play more like Half-Life 2.

Doom 3 came out before Half Life 2. And by 3 months, so it's improbable for either of them to have influenced each other.

Edited March 22, 2023 by Edward850

[Rudolph]

26 minutes ago, Edward850 said:

Doom 3 came out before Half Life 2. And by 3 months, so it's improbable for either of them to have influenced each other.

I disagree, since both games had been showcased at events and on the Internet throughout their development. There is no way both Valve and Id had not been aware of what each other had been working on and how their respecting game were shaping up.

 

Regardless, when I said Doom 3 plays like Half-Life 2, I did not mean it plagiarized Half-Life 2 so much as it features very similar gameplay and mechanics. That being said, Doom 3's premise and presentation do feel closer to Half-Life 1.

Edited March 22, 2023 by Rudolph

[Edward850]

4 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

I disagree, since both games had been showcased at events and on the Internet throughout their development. There is no way both Valve and Id had not been aware of what each other had been working on and how their respecting game were shaping up.

I don't think you understand how game development works, you basically can't do things this way without completely fucking over your entire development schedule.

 

Case in point, Duke Nukem Forever, the game that kept trying change to newly released engine tech while also trying to be ahead of it at the same time.

Edited March 22, 2023 by Edward850

[PrinceOfBrains]

26 minutes ago, Edward850 said:

I don't think you understand how game development works, you basically can't do things this way without completely fucking over your entire development schedule.

 

Case in point, Duke Nukem Forever, the game that kept trying change to newly released engine tech while also trying to be ahead of it at the same time.

This is absolutely true. Honestly, it probably makes more sense just to say that both of them were inspired by the more atmospheric approach of Half-Life 1, even if they came at it from different angles (with HL2 still, at its core, being more action-oriented and setpiece-driven despite the milder horror elements it included, like Ravenholm). 

 

2 hours ago, Koko Ricky said:

I think we should reroute the conversation back to Quake's aesthetics. There's so much to be said about id's choices and how the zeitgeist at that time played a significant role in the art style.

There is, and it's why I've never understood the "no personality" argument, which I've honestly personally wondered about being a narrative people created after Masters of Doom and similar stories painted a picture of its somewhat rough development. It's such a visual 180 from Doom in a lot of ways, and its focus on gothic design and dark fantasy imagery (which was kinda gaining traction in a lot of media or art at the time - I wouldn't go so far as to say Heretic inspired Doom, but you can deffo see them pulling from a lot of the same visual references and inspiration) helped separate it from Doom's more obvious Aliens/sci-fi leanings. (Admittedly, I've always preferred a more over the top/military influenced sci-fi visual, which is partly why I like Quake II so much, but that's not to say Quake is bad by any means.)

I think some of it is just people preferring other id games, and perhaps partly motivated by a backlash to the "super serious grey/brown shooters" we were kinda clogged up with in the Xbox 360 era, but neither of those are fair criticisms against Quake, and I think if you revisit it objectively, there's a LOT to enjoy about its weirdly piecemeal art style - call it a side effect of the Slipgates bringing too many realities together if you want lol

[Rudolph]

43 minutes ago, Edward850 said:

I don't think you understand how game development works, you basically can't do things this way without completely fucking over your entire development schedule.

Maybe, but again, I never claimed that Doom 3 plagiarized Half-Life 2 anyway, just that it plays very much like Half-Life 2 in the sense it features a more realistic arsenal with reloading mechanics and limited stamina as well as a physics engine that allows for a Gravity Gun-style weapon in the expansion.

Edited March 22, 2023 by Rudolph

[Edward850]

10 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

Maybe, but again, I never claimed that Doom 3 plagiarized Half-Life 2 anyway, just that it plays very much like Half-Life 2 in the sense it features a more realistic arsenal with reloading mechanics and limited stamina as well as a physics engine that allows for a Gravity Gun-style weapon in the expansion.

I never said you were claiming they plagiarized HL2. What I'm saying is against what you are claiming right now, even the little bit you are suggesting now isn't possible. Also Half-life 2 wasn't the first game to have weapon reloading, so claiming they were inspired by that when it was already a mainstream concept is putting the blinders on.

 

About the only thing you can argue is the gravity gun, but even then that was taken from a thing Doom 3 already had in production; A level tool where they flung items around to simulate environment damage.

 

A more likely scenario is they were inspired by Half-life 1 as you claimed already, but also other things such as System Shock, and also themselves because the premise of Doom being more story focused is a concept is as old as Tom Hall's Doom Bible.

Edited March 22, 2023 by Edward850

[Individualised]

13 minutes ago, PrinceOfBrains said:

call it a side effect of the Slipgates bringing too many realities together if you want lol

Isn't this the whole point of the game anyway? I don't understand the argument that Quake has too many contrasting enemies or themes or whatever when the whole "dimension clash" thing is literally a big part of the story. That criticism also contradicts the argument that Quake's level aesthetics are dull and boring, because Quake features a variety of level themes for the same reason.

[PrinceOfBrains]

1 minute ago, Individualised said:

Isn't this the whole point of the game anyway? I don't understand the argument that Quake has too many contrasting enemies or themes or whatever when the whole "dimension clash" thing is literally a big part of the story. That criticism also contradicts the argument that Quake's level aesthetics are dull and boring, because Quake features a variety of level themes for the same reason.

This is very true, maybe most people just didn't read the manual. (Hell, I wouldn't until my dad bought us the full registered version back in the day, so maybe I was part of the problem!)

[Individualised]

2 minutes ago, PrinceOfBrains said:

This is very true, maybe most people just didn't read the manual. (Hell, I wouldn't until my dad bought us the full registered version back in the day, so maybe I was part of the problem!)

Even without reading the manual I think players can work out what's going on after playing through the first episode or so, even without the story screens too. At least I did, kinda, when I played the game for the first time blind.

[Rudolph]

2 hours ago, Edward850 said:

Also Half-life 2 wasn't the first game to have weapon reloading,

Never said it was either. Frankly, I do not know what you are trying to accomplish here by fixating on my Half-Life 2 comparison, but it really does not feel like you are willing to engage with my overall comment in good faith and as such, I would kindly ask of you to drop it.

[Sonikkumania]

20 hours ago, Fiber Wire said:

I remember most people really liking Doom 3 when it came out. It wasn’t until later that people seemed to bandwagon disliking it.

It was a big deal at the time, a sequel for Doom, holy shit! The graphics also looked impressive and our PC at the time could've never ran it. It was also considered a scary game, I remember seeing footage of a guy playing it and being jumpscared. Classic stuff. 

Anyway. Quake was somewhat a boring game for me back when I was learning gaming, possibly due to monotonious graphical style and lack of similar atmosphere of other DOS FPS titles. It took until adulthood until I actually finished Q1 and started to love it, sometimes even more than Doom.