Sergeant Mark IV's take on Doom Eternal

[ZALGO]

 

Personally I heavily disagree with what this guy is saying but I would like to see all your input on this (Reasons for disagreeing does not include my own personal dislike towards the guy 'cough' suicide comment 'cough' ).

[D88M3R]

Brutal Doom is an insanely overrated mod that is mildly amusing for five minutes and then loses all "charm" that it has. I find funny that the guy wont play it given how much of Brutal Doom was the inspiration for both D16 and Eternal.

Edit: Two minutes in, and i agree with the guy about what he says, is the same thing i said: D16 is a good game, is just too different from what i understand a new Doom version should be

Edited March 17, 2020 by D88M3R

[ZALGO]

1 minute ago, D88M3R said:

Brutal Doom is an insanely overrated mod that is mildly amusing for five minutes and then loses all "charm" that it has. I find funny that the guy wont play it given how much of Brutal Doom was the inspiration for both D16 and Eternal.

 

I find it funny how when he describes how he intends to build D16 were he given the budget, he basically described the skeleton of what D16 is in the first place. Only things different are the bonus stuff that HE thinks fits Doom (Which food and water management in doom game??? nah)

[D88M3R]

11 minutes ago, ZALGO said:

 

I find it funny how when he describes how he intends to build D16 were he given the budget, he basically described the skeleton of what D16 is in the first place. Only things different are the bonus stuff that HE thinks fits Doom (Which food and water management in doom game??? nah)

 

lol I am currently watching, i will finish it and come back

Edit: I dont think so, i think that he is on point about what he says and is the same thing i thought while playing the game, you have to wait the whole game to have the weapons as powerful as they should be right at the start for example.

Edited March 17, 2020 by D88M3R

[D88M3R]

Well, i cannot believe it but i agree 100% with everything he said.

[ZALGO]

7 minutes ago, D88M3R said:

Well, i cannot believe it but i agree 100% with everything he said.

 

Well seeing as I admittedly don't have much time on my hands I'll just copy-paste a comment that pretty much speaks my opinions right there.

 

From Ethan Gray:

 

TL;DR I disagree with him. Also this guy isn't really the person you would want making a DOOM game anyways.

 

Interesting interview, but asking this SgtMarkIV's opinion on the direction of DOOM is questionable (more on that at the end). I understand it's all his opinion, but I've been a DOOM fan for a long time also and I completely disagree that they have lost the vision of the original games. Here are a few of the points I disagree with:

 

-He was completely wrong about movement. Playing DOOM classic is more akin Serious Sam than 2016 is. You spent most of your time trying to funnel enemies or circle strafing them. in 2016 you spend much more time bobbing and weaving to avoid imp fireballs and soldier plasma bursts. The ammo limits and arena designs coupled with enemies who lead you with heavy ranged attacks make the "hold s and left mouse" strategy useless in most situations.

 

-The weapon upgrade system added more variety and rewards to secret hunting , plus it allows each player to tailor their weapons and skills to their playstyle. Watch any 3 DOOM 2016 walkthroughs and you'll find differing opinions on weapon and rune hierarchy. (The exception being Gauss siege mode, which was super OP. It isn't returning in Eternal).

 

-the power fantasy comes from skill, not the weapons, the atmosphere of 2016 just leaned into that to create immersion. You feel like a bad ass when you are ripping through demons on nightmare. All of the extra fluff just adds to the emotional rush. The story of the DOOMslayer is the story of YOU. The reason he is basically an unstoppable god is because you wreck the fuck out of hell in DOOM I/II/64. That entire plot point is just to stroke your own ego, adding to that power fantasy immersion.

 

-saying all the weapons were powerful in Classic DOOM misses the great design of the classic weapons and the "every weapon is a tool" gameplay that they tried to recapture in 2016. If you play an unmodded DOOM classic, you'll find not all weapons are "powerful." They each have their own strengths and weaknesses. Chaingun as an example: using it on cacodemons burns through your ammo. You're better off using the chainsaw or rockets. The chaingun is much better for controlling large crowds of imps and hitscanners. Brutal doom ruins the weapon balance and makes the game 10 times easier, so hopefully he didn't use that as reference. You could basically pick a favorite weapon and use it in every situation. (Mind you I've played Brutal Doom and have enjoyed it).

 

-Classic DOOM was a cheesy game about killing demons that often feels like the developers are playing pranks on you. I don't see how DOOM 2016 has inconsistent tone. You are a demon killing machine with a pet rabbit for god's sake. They basically had carte blanche to go whichever way they wanted. Hugo Martin has even ran into the OG masters of DOOM and they basically said that they would do the same thing that id is doing right now.

 

-his entire spiel on how he would reboot DOOM if he had the budget is basically a skeleton for DOOM 2016. All the extra stuff just adds to that structure. He basically reinvented the wheel in his head.

 

-Bonus: a DOOM mod with a hunger and thirst meter is the dumbest and most 2013 thing I've ever heard. Also is it just me, or did he forget that the "DOOM engine" is now colloquially referred to as" idTech 1?"

 

Brutal DOOM is a divisive mod. It can be entertaining, but it breaks the game and significantly reduces the difficulty by bypassing or changing core game mechanics. It's also basically a combination of many mods that were used without credit given to the original designers. Sgt MarkIV is also a pariah in the DOOM wad community, partly because of what I mentioned before, and also because he has a history of being toxic, racist, and sexist. I'm not sure why anyone would be interested in how he would make a DOOM game when the one we got is already critically acclaimed and viewed by most as a faithful reboot to a timeless masterpiece.

 

End Comment

 

 

Edited March 17, 2020 by ZALGO

[D88M3R]

I get what Ethan Gray is saying but i completely disagree, the story was ridiculous, the weapons mods sucked, Doom 2016 has a lot more to do with Serious Sam and Painkiller regarding gameplay and level design than Doom, etc. I did not heard in the video about the food and water thing so i have no clue about that but yeah is a terrible idea.

[doomsucksass]

Wait, people still care about Brutal Doom? Enough for YouTube personalities/explainers/whocares to make videos on the ABSOLUTE GENIUS!!!!11 of a creator like he's some sort of important figure?

Edited March 20, 2020 by doomsucksass

[ZALGO]

Just now, D88M3R said:

I get what Ethan Gray is saying but i completely disagree, the story was ridiculous, the weapons mods sucked, Doom 2016 has a lot more to do with Serious Sam and Painkiller regarding gameplay and level design than Doom, etc. I did not heard in the video about the food and water thing so i have no clue about that but yeah is a terrible idea.

 

It was supposed to be ridiculous, as ridiculous as Classic Doom even was. I personally would not think that Doomguy getting revenge on the demons for killing his rabbit would ever be serious (and if the leaks are true, then DoomSlayer being Doomguy only confirms how close to the ridiculousness the game was already as he technically is still getting revenge on his rabbit). The only serious game ever in the franchise was Doom 3 and even it had some ridiculous shit like The fat zombie freaking farting in the Delta Labs. 

 

IDK about you, but I think the explosive shot or the triple shot MORE than made the shotgun a very viable weapon. Siege mode was straight broken in Gauss. Machine gun missiles were great for stunning hell knights, plasma stun bomb was great for the pesky shields. The mods fit perfectly for the weapons.

If you try to take on shields or most of the enemies without mods you would be in a lot more of a sticky situation than if you did use them.

 

Also the Serious Sam and painkiller stuff is NOT what D16 was about. I played Serious Sam since my childhood and never would I say that Doom had that straightforward, non-verticality, move backwards shoot than what those games did. 

[ZALGO]

37 minutes ago, doomsucksass said:

Wait, people still care about Brutal Doom? Enough for YouTube personalities/explainers/whocares to make videos on the ABSOLUTE GENIUS!!!!11 of a creator?

 

It bugs me, the guy is getting famous as if he made a masterpiece of a mod yet once you do just a bit of research, it's just a poorly made mod with a really bad dev to speak of (and toxic fanbase too.... god I did not like the person I was back when I started Brutal Doom).

 

EDIT: I hold the same dislike towards the guy regardless of his feelings toward his past. However I will admit that I was a bit harsh on that statement and should have been more mature about it.

Edited March 17, 2020 by ZALGO

[TheNoob_Gamer]

29 minutes ago, ZALGO said:

 

It bugs me, the guy is getting famous as if he made a masterpiece of a mod yet once you do just a bit of research, it's just a poorly made mod with a really bad dev to speak of (and toxic fanbase too.... god I did not like the person I was back when I started Brutal Doom).

Reminder - he is on Doomworld.

[ZALGO]

Just now, TheNoob_Gamer said:

Reminder - he is on Doomworld.

 

He is, I'm aware of that. However, he is silent most of the time apart from threads where he is announcing an update to his mods or anything of the sort.

 

I will admit though that my comment there was a bit of a dick move on my part. I apologize for the immaturity that comment brought.

[Tony_Danza_the_boss]

Def agree with him on some parts. He was spot on about how he would remake Doom. D16 definitely felt limiting on the weapons and the fact you had to find the mods to make them (and you) powerful. Having them being up to snuff would have been great, but it's easy to see why. Game development philosophy has evolved a lot since the 90s, and power-trip fantasy-esque game design isn't that common compared to starting off the player small and building them up over the course of the game. 

 

Classic Doom and D16 both differ greatly in the movement which he did touch on. He's quite accurate when he says Classic movement is like a "dance with the demons." Being able to kite around a group of revenant fireballs, avoiding hellknight, imp, caco blasts, strategic infighting, etc. are all very crucial to Classic Doom. Maybe not so much with Doom 1 or 2, but especially with expansions (Plutonia) and some of the more modern and difficult wads. 

 

D16's movement is much more in line with that of a cover shooter, which it isnt, but you aren't zipping around the map at mach 5 circle strafing and dodging fireballs. It's more of jump in, glory kill demons, retreat, grab hp, use a mod or 2, jump back in, glory kill and repeat. It's great fun, but it's definitely not a strategic dance of skill quite like it is with Doom Classic. And that simply comes with the fact that D16 is definitely catered around a console audience.

 

Both are amazing games, but are on the opposite ends of the spectrum mechanically.

[Fairweather]

Why am I supposed to care about the opinion of the br00t4l d00m dude exactly?

Talking to this guy about game design is like talking to creators of HD texture packs about environment design.

Edit: Not that I think he shouldn't have an opinion, but this is bog-standard forum dweller takes right here. Nothing you couldn't get from the general bozo in the Doom Eternal sub-forum, it doesn't deserve a spotlight.

Edited March 17, 2020 by Fairweather

[FortressOfDoom]

He has a problem with Doom guy having an electric guitar with argent energy in it and cites that as an example of how Doom Eternal is getting the tone wrong...sorry but that's a load of bull. Also the point he makes about the combat not being a 'dance' like OG Doom doesn't make sense in the context of DE, if anything the new movement system with dash, jump, climb and hookshot abilities makes it more of a dance.

Edited March 17, 2020 by FortressOfDoom

[Super Mighty G]

This discussion can only result in further discourse. 

[ZALGO]

1 minute ago, Super Mighty G said:

This discussion can only result in further discourse. 

 

As much as I hate to admit it, it might end up becoming that way in the future. I still felt like it would be good to get discussions out of though.

[jazzmaster9]

2 hours ago, D88M3R said:

how much of Brutal Doom was the inspiration for both D16 and Eternal.

3 years after and this is still being parroted to this day? Fatalities and Gore have been around for a LONG while...

we get it, you will NEVER like nuDoom.

Edited March 17, 2020 by jazzmaster9

[The_SloVinator]

"Why Brutal Doom's creator won't play DOOM Eternal"

 

Cool.

 

Anyways, what was I doing again.... oh right.

[XLightningStormL]

Anyone who thinks Brootal Dewwm inspired or aided Doom 2016, and by extension Doom Eternal is a complete dill. Doom 4 1.0 was shit canned before Brutal Doom was even popular.

iD owes nothing to Marcos Abenante, and anyone who says otherwise must be completely blind.

[Rampy470]

Quote

 You can't dance around the enemy projectiles anymore you're too slow

 

Bitch yes you can what game were you playing.

Edited March 17, 2020 by Rampy470

[Doomkid]

I like to form opinions for myself rather than relying on other people’s accounts, personally

[Caffeine Freak]

4 hours ago, ZALGO said:

-He was completely wrong about movement. Playing DOOM classic is more akin Serious Sam than 2016 is. You spent most of your time trying to funnel enemies or circle strafing them. in 2016 you spend much more time bobbing and weaving to avoid imp fireballs and soldier plasma bursts. The ammo limits and arena designs coupled with enemies who lead you with heavy ranged attacks make the "hold s and left mouse" strategy useless in most situations.

 

Honestly, this is one of the biggest aspects of Classic Doom that I wish some of the older members of the Doom community could wrap their heads around. For all the positives of the combat in those games, you spent a gigantic portion of the time attempting to funnel enemies to you, or opening up a door and then immediately backing away and using the door frame for cover as you picked off the inhabitants of a room. Don't believe me? Boot up one of the classic Doom games, pick a higher difficulty and play 10 or 20 levels, taking note of just how often you follow this exact routine without even thinking about it. It was such a ubiquitous tactic that it was even recommended in strategy guides at the time. And because of the abundance of hitscanners, this strategy was often necessary to survive. 

 

People can gripe about the stupidity and repetitive nature of lockdown arenas in the newer games, and it's not an invalid complaint, but it's also a massive step up from the 'circle strafe until they're dead, now funnel these guys through this corridor/around this corner' that was ingrained into you by the end of the classic games. For all the criticism over it's combat, this is one area where even Doom 3 improved over the classics; it very rarely forced you to use this dumb corridor/corner strategy.

[Deleted_Account]

Yes, I’m sure Hugo and Marty are bawling their eyes out right now. Drying their tears with crisp greenery.

[HorrorMovieRei]

Why does this need to be a video? Hell, why does this need to be a thread???

[Foebane72]

I mostly agree with Mark IV: Doom 2016 was repetitive, and to be honest, I didn't like the weapon upgrades, neither. I never knew what would work best, and I would've preferred if ALL of the weapons had ALL of the upgrades from the start, let me decide on my play style earliest on instead of making me wait until later with less choice initially. Same for the upgrades like extra ammo, extra health and extra armour, when I tried to have equal amounts of all three, but one was always lacking. Hated that choice, HATED it.

 

5 hours ago, D88M3R said:

I did not heard in the video about the food and water thing so i have no clue about that but yeah is a terrible idea.

 

In the middle of the video, Mark IV takes a break from Brutal Doom to talk about his new mod, VietDoom. I believe that the food and water management was mentioned in that part.

 

5 hours ago, ZALGO said:

The only serious game ever in the franchise was Doom 3 and even it had some ridiculous shit like The fat zombie freaking farting in the Delta Labs. 

 

Fat people have GAS, especially undead, rotting ones. I fail to see your logic.

 

I also definitely agree with Mark IV about the origins of the DoomSlayer, like the way he is portrayed as a superhero, almost like a GOD, in Doom 2016. In the past, he was an ordinary human soldier who performed extraordinary things in the service of humanity against the Hellspawn. I prefer Doomguy as an ordinary person, to be honest.

Edited March 17, 2020 by Foebane72

[Kronecker–Capelli]

Just now, Foebane72 said:

I also definitely agree with Mark IV about the origins of the DoomSlayer, like the way he is portrayed as a superhero, almost like a GOD, in Doom 2016. In the past, he was an ordinary human soldier who performed extraordinary things in the service of humanity against the Hellspawn. I prefer Doomguy as an ordinary person, to be honest.

SUDDENLY, yes.

Because "GODLIKE person fights against interdimensional horrors on mars base" sounds lame against "ordinal human being, at the limits of humans body capabilities, fights against interdimensional horrors on mars base".

[Redneckerz]

Didn't Mark IV get a rejection from Zenimax or something for being credited for stuff that got into Doom2016 (which was clearly inspired by BD)? Vague memories.

 

Nevertheless, make the decision on Doom Eternal for yourself when it releases. Or just rely on GGGMan. (kidding).

 

By his Legacy, i can understand why Mark was asked for his opinion (BD is the most popular mod after all) but by that same legacy, its also why you should form your own opinion about it.

[TheNoob_Gamer]

27 minutes ago, Foebane72 said:

I also definitely agree with Mark IV about the origins of the DoomSlayer, like the way he is portrayed as a superhero, almost like a GOD, in Doom 2016. In the past, he was an ordinary human soldier who performed extraordinary things in the service of humanity against the Hellspawn. I prefer Doomguy as an ordinary person, to be honest.

That's what you get for staying in Hell too long and begin adapting to it.

[dewmguy]

15 minutes ago, Kronecker–Capelli said:

SUDDENLY, yes.

Because "GODLIKE person fights against interdimensional horrors on mars base" sounds lame against "ordinal human being, at the limits of humans body capabilities, fights against interdimensional horrors on mars base".

 

oh God the game that's apparently 'all about gameplay and not story' is RUINED!