Sergeant Mark IV's take on Doom Eternal

[dewmguy]

39 minutes ago, Foebane72 said:

 

Fat people have GAS, especially undead, rotting ones. I fail to see your logic.

 

 

Did I ever tell you why I'm called dewmguy? I'm fairly healthy yet full of GAS

[Kronecker–Capelli]

Just now, dewmguy said:

 

oh God the game that's apparently 'all about gameplay and not story' is RUINED!

Oh yeah, silly me. How I could forget about those glorious gameplay cutscenes in Doom 2016.

[seed]

Hm... having just finished watching the video, I can say I definitely agree with Mark on some points, which have since even been accepted as valid concerns anyway, that being the excessive focus on arena fights and lockdowns, and the repetitive nature of the game. But, that's pretty much where it stops.

 

The fact that it's tone is inconsistent once again makes no sense to me, since classic Doom had different tones as well, parts where you hunted down the demons and parts where YOU felt like were being hunted down, and the occasional claustrophobia and sense of dread present in some levels.

 

Being a chosen one? Well, that's the result of fighting hell for so long, isn't it. In all honesty seeing Doomguy stay exactly the same after so long would be pretty lame, and you're the one sent to stop the invasion for the simple reason of being the only Marine to have been fighting them for so long and understand them and their tactics better than anyone. There's a reason why others couldn't hold their ground against them...

 

Weapon mods? They serve their purpose very well I'd say. Of course they suck at the beginning, but that's only logical, and they become less effective the tougher the enemies you run into. So, they had to be added to keep the weaker weapons competitive and efficient later into the game.

 

Slower movement? Sure, but is it slow, or simply slower? On higher difficulty setting 2016 could get real fast, and besides, running around at 200mph in classic Doom didn't always work, especially when the enemies were already waiting behind the next door or to ambush the player in a room. So much for running away from the baddies. I would tie this to the increased mobility, which I don't get at all. What's wrong with having more things to do than plain shooting until everything is dead? It gets stale very quickly that way, so adding some platforming, climbing, and more puzzles to keep things interesting and fresh can only be a welcome addition to the experience.

 

I can see where Mark is coming, but I think he's massively selling 2016 short for all the things it got right. Likewise, classic Doom was not a flawless game and not everything about it was perfect. I'm not going to go into why they contacted Mark because it's a pointless endeavor - and painfully obvious to everyone.

Edited March 17, 2020 by seed

[dewmguy]

31 minutes ago, Kronecker–Capelli said:

Oh yeah, silly me. How I could forget about those glorious gameplay cutscenes in Doom 2016.

 

The gameplay cutscenes also includes the likes of possessed and imps ripping doomguy's guts out.

[Foebane72]

1 hour ago, Kronecker–Capelli said:

SUDDENLY, yes.

Because "GODLIKE person fights against interdimensional horrors on mars base" sounds lame against "ordinal human being, at the limits of humans body capabilities, fights against interdimensional horrors on mars base".

 

My point is, the PLAYER is meant to be Doomguy/Doomslayer since the player is controlling the avatar, so you bring your OWN skills and experience to the game. Having some plot describe how the character was incarcerated for (to many) an unknown reason takes away from that immersion, unless the player likes to think that D2016 is acknowledging their experience and skills from the previous games, and how the demons trapped YOU in a tomb in a last-ditch effort to stop you, to be awoken later to bring your abilities to this new fight. I suppose that's one way of looking at it.

 

[Nine Inch Heels]

FWIW I can sympathize with people who'd rather have doomguy be this "blank slate", there are definitely merits to it, like for example if you can project your own ideas on the protagonist, then you might be able to immerse yourself more. However this isn't true for everybody, some people like it better when they're given a "pre-defined" protagonist they're able to "follow", for want of a better expression. Can't please everybody in the end.

[dewmguy]

1 minute ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

FWIW I can sympathize with people who'd rather have doomguy be this "blank slate", there are definitely merits to it, like for example if you can project your own ideas on the protagonist, then you might be able to immerse yourself more. However this isn't true for everybody, some people like it better when they're given a "pre-defined" protagonist they're able to "follow", for want of a better expression. Can't please everybody in the end.

 

True. IMO those kind of characters are better off in the RPG genre nowadays

[Archi]

Agreed with Mark on everything.

 

Will play eternal anyway, even if it's nothing like original doom. Should be a fun game to play once or twice.

[jazzmaster9]

3 hours ago, Foebane72 said:

I mostly agree with Mark IV: Doom 2016 was repetitive, and to be honest, I didn't like the weapon upgrades, neither. 

I knew you would find your way here. Misery loves company

[Nine Inch Heels]

1 hour ago, dewmguy said:

IMO those kind of characters are better off in the RPG genre nowadays

More like they're mandatory in the RPG genre. But yeah, not sure what to make of the storytelling complaints wrt doom eternal. I liked how Doom'16 did things, as it still left some room for people who wanted to maintain part of their head-canon, while actually tying some parts of the game together, and help with setting the stage and such. Last thing I heard was the Doom Eternal would use 3rd person views for cutscenes (not sure if all of them, or just certain ones), so I'll hold off on judging that until I've seen it all in action. 3rd person will probably work better when you wanna show off the scope of the environment and such, so I hope there's a bit of that going around and about in the new game.

[fraggle]

My hot take: this Youtube channel saw the opportunity to stoke some controversy to get some views and seized it. Sgt Mark probably doesn't even realise he's being used.

[seed]

3 minutes ago, fraggle said:

My hot take: this Youtube channel saw the opportunity to stoke some controversy to get some views and seized it. Sgt Mark probably doesn't even realise he's being used.

 

You're not the only one thinking this. Controversy though? Hm... I don't know. Controversial in what ways?

 

Views? Certainly, thanks to the popularity of BD and the reputation of its creator.

Edited March 17, 2020 by seed

[Robo_Cola]

Well that's interesting, he gave his opinion on Doom Eternal and all that.

 

So when is he finishing his Brutal Doom Extermination Day?  Can't wait for Doom Eternal to come out, reviews came in and they say it's amazing.

[The Doommer]

6 hours ago, Kronecker–Capelli said:

he was an ordinary human soldier who performed extraordinary things in the service of humanity against the Hellspawn.

Yeah, he was too ordinary. You are very ordinary when you massacre hell to avenge your rabbit.

 

Come on people...

The "chosen one" personality for Slayer might look cliche, but I don't remember lots of games when enemies would shit themselves after seeing you.

 

Also, Doom 2016 was the closest Doom experience you could ever get.

6 hours ago, Foebane72 said:

I would've preferred if ALL of the weapons had ALL of the upgrades from the start

So you'd have an easier game? The game gives you a reason to explore the map. It rewards you for that.

 

12 hours ago, ZALGO said:

the story was ridiculous

Doom NEVER had a proper story.

Doom 3 aside.

 

In general, don't let one opinion turn you off.

I remember John Romero liked D16 very much and here he says they nailed Doom:

 

 

So, yeah. I consider Romero a better source than Sarge.

 

[The Doommer]

13 hours ago, ZALGO said:

 

Well seeing as I admittedly don't have much time on my hands I'll just copy-paste a comment that pretty much speaks my opinions right there.

 

From Ethan Gray:

 

TL;DR I disagree with him. Also this guy isn't really the person you would want making a DOOM game anyways.

 

Interesting interview, but asking this SgtMarkIV's opinion on the direction of DOOM is questionable (more on that at the end). I understand it's all his opinion, but I've been a DOOM fan for a long time also and I completely disagree that they have lost the vision of the original games. Here are a few of the points I disagree with:

 

-He was completely wrong about movement. Playing DOOM classic is more akin Serious Sam than 2016 is. You spent most of your time trying to funnel enemies or circle strafing them. in 2016 you spend much more time bobbing and weaving to avoid imp fireballs and soldier plasma bursts. The ammo limits and arena designs coupled with enemies who lead you with heavy ranged attacks make the "hold s and left mouse" strategy useless in most situations.

 

-The weapon upgrade system added more variety and rewards to secret hunting , plus it allows each player to tailor their weapons and skills to their playstyle. Watch any 3 DOOM 2016 walkthroughs and you'll find differing opinions on weapon and rune hierarchy. (The exception being Gauss siege mode, which was super OP. It isn't returning in Eternal).

 

-the power fantasy comes from skill, not the weapons, the atmosphere of 2016 just leaned into that to create immersion. You feel like a bad ass when you are ripping through demons on nightmare. All of the extra fluff just adds to the emotional rush. The story of the DOOMslayer is the story of YOU. The reason he is basically an unstoppable god is because you wreck the fuck out of hell in DOOM I/II/64. That entire plot point is just to stroke your own ego, adding to that power fantasy immersion.

 

-saying all the weapons were powerful in Classic DOOM misses the great design of the classic weapons and the "every weapon is a tool" gameplay that they tried to recapture in 2016. If you play an unmodded DOOM classic, you'll find not all weapons are "powerful." They each have their own strengths and weaknesses. Chaingun as an example: using it on cacodemons burns through your ammo. You're better off using the chainsaw or rockets. The chaingun is much better for controlling large crowds of imps and hitscanners. Brutal doom ruins the weapon balance and makes the game 10 times easier, so hopefully he didn't use that as reference. You could basically pick a favorite weapon and use it in every situation. (Mind you I've played Brutal Doom and have enjoyed it).

 

-Classic DOOM was a cheesy game about killing demons that often feels like the developers are playing pranks on you. I don't see how DOOM 2016 has inconsistent tone. You are a demon killing machine with a pet rabbit for god's sake. They basically had carte blanche to go whichever way they wanted. Hugo Martin has even ran into the OG masters of DOOM and they basically said that they would do the same thing that id is doing right now.

 

-his entire spiel on how he would reboot DOOM if he had the budget is basically a skeleton for DOOM 2016. All the extra stuff just adds to that structure. He basically reinvented the wheel in his head.

 

-Bonus: a DOOM mod with a hunger and thirst meter is the dumbest and most 2013 thing I've ever heard. Also is it just me, or did he forget that the "DOOM engine" is now colloquially referred to as" idTech 1?"

 

Brutal DOOM is a divisive mod. It can be entertaining, but it breaks the game and significantly reduces the difficulty by bypassing or changing core game mechanics. It's also basically a combination of many mods that were used without credit given to the original designers. Sgt MarkIV is also a pariah in the DOOM wad community, partly because of what I mentioned before, and also because he has a history of being toxic, racist, and sexist. I'm not sure why anyone would be interested in how he would make a DOOM game when the one we got is already critically acclaimed and viewed by most as a faithful reboot to a timeless masterpiece.

 

End Comment

 

 

Sarge's response:

 

"Well, sorry but I'm not even going to reply to this one. You missed the point of everything I said and half of your post is a collection of strawmen."

 

Sorry Sarge, but this is just being unreasonable. You can respond to some very valid points he makes there.

 

 

[ZALGO]

29 minutes ago, The Doommer said:

Sarge's response:

 

"Well, sorry but I'm not even going to reply to this one. You missed the point of everything I said and half of your post is a collection of strawmen."

 

Sorry Sarge, but this is just being unreasonable. You can respond to some very valid points he makes there.

 

 

 

Just read that comment.... well that gives you a good impression of how sarge handles an argument with legitimate points to make.

[The Doommer]

2 minutes ago, ZALGO said:

Just read that comment

I did, Sarge is just very bad at this

[Super Mighty G]

1 hour ago, The Doommer said:

Sarge's response:

 

"Well, sorry but I'm not even going to reply to this one. You missed the point of everything I said and half of your post is a collection of strawmen."

I have no interest in the opinions of someone who doesn't know what a strawman is. 

[Redneckerz]

2 hours ago, The Doommer said:

Sarge's response:

 

"Well, sorry but I'm not even going to reply to this one. You missed the point of everything I said and half of your post is a collection of strawmen."

 

Sorry Sarge, but this is just being unreasonable. You can respond to some very valid points he makes there.

Creator of popular mod does not know how to hold a valid discussion regarding his own views and opinions, news at 11.

 

In all seriousness, I mean, if that's the response you are going to give to people actively interested in debating your point of contention, why should the public listen to you again?

 

Way to shoot yourself in the foot.

[D4NUK1]

4 hours ago, STILES said:

Well that's interesting, he gave his opinion on Doom Eternal and all that.

 

So when is he finishing his Brutal Doom Extermination Day?  Can't wait for Doom Eternal to come out, reviews came in and they say it's amazing.

Extermination Day final version it's coming with his final Brutal Doom V22 Version, after that, he it's working in his own game (on the GZDOOM engine) Brutal Fate ( Name not final) that it's his own evolution of the Brutal Doom gameplay, but without restricitions of the enemies, weapons, lore, etc-

Im looking forward to play it.

[The Doommer]

45 minutes ago, Redneckerz said:

In all seriousness, I mean, if that's the response you are going to give to people actively interested in debating your point of contention, why should the public listen to you again?

I hate to say it but Sarge is an example of when you "Hate the artist but love the art"

 

I don't hate him though, just saying.

[Redneckerz]

19 minutes ago, jamondemarnatural said:

Extermination Day final version it's coming with his final Brutal Doom V22 Version, after that, he it's working in his own game (on the GZDOOM engine) Brutal Fate ( Name not final) that it's his own evolution of the Brutal Doom gameplay, but without restricitions of the enemies, weapons, lore, etc-

Im looking forward to play it.

I was wondering when he was going to make his own game using the BD mechanics. As a seperate game, it is thus loose from the BD stigma, and it may work out.

 

Hopefully he picks up the pace on that because releases with Mark are usually of a slow nature. :)

[D4NUK1]

2 minutes ago, Redneckerz said:

I was wondering when he was going to make his own game using the BD mechanics. As a seperate game, it is thus loose from the BD stigma, and it may work out.

 

Hopefully he picks up the pace on that because releases with Mark are usually of a slow nature. :)

> Slow nature
>Made the first extermination day megawad like in 1 year and other moders need 2 or 3 for a boom megawad
>While balacing that mapset with they own mods.
>While he also rework Doom 64

For a slow modder, im sure he work fast.

Edited March 17, 2020 by jamondemarnatural

[Redneckerz]

2 minutes ago, jamondemarnatural said:

> Slow nature
>Made the first extermination day megawad like in 1 year and other moders need 2 or 3 for a boom map
>While balacing that mapset with they own mods.
>While he also rework Doom 64

For a slow modder, im sure he work fast.

Extermination Day evolved out of the Hell On Earth Starter Pack and like that, it had several beta releases before it was finished. I don't find that particularly fast, and megawads have been done faster.

[Grain of Salt]

"Sergeant Mark IV's take on Doom Eternal"

 

Who fucking cares

[whatup876]

I can see where he's coming from but besides the comic and memes within the fanbase, he's partially reponsible for the "identity revisionism" that the public caused on Doom.

From BD's popularity with newer players and journalists, to Wikia articles mentioning it everywhere, to a quote from Romero being misrepresented like a game of telephone. (i don't recall Mark ever telling his fans that his mod isn't "definitive" and was just a fan project)

 

I feel like id themselves are just more comfortable with their version of Doom and a problem with this is just the marketing of "going back to its roots", when classic Doom was "expanded" by fans with content that felt like unofficial sequels and spin offs.

Like, if id Software really wanted to do what fans wanted, they'd hire them or do some collaborations, like something bigger than the addons for the Unity ports or hiring Andrew Hulshult. (even though they haven't done anything with how he remasters Doom music)

Doom's fanbase has its fair share of awesome stuff and weak stuff, so it can depend on who id would want to work with anyway. (if it were to happen and most people were okay with it)

 

Also, there's even more differences between old and new Doom and some stuff that he could bring up.

But i feel like most negative criticism in this game seems silly because it's the dumb takes that get more attention.

That's kind of why i wish someone like MatthewMatosis made a bigger video comparing Doom games, because he does a better job articulating information.

Something that makes both sides reach a middle ground or agree to disagree.

 

11 minutes ago, jamondemarnatural said:

For a slow modder, im sure he work fast.

 

I mean, how does his current code compares to the older days of the 0 dot L bug?

Edited March 17, 2020 by whatup876
adding more

[D4NUK1]

7 minutes ago, Redneckerz said:

Extermination Day evolved out of the Hell On Earth Starter Pack and like that, it had several beta releases before it was finished. I don't find that particularly fast, and megawads have been done faster.

I was thinking on that mappack, as Extermination Day it's like hell on earth sp v2.0

 

The most old topic that i can find of that mapset it's on 2014 (not counting the real icon of sin topic) and he released thaon 31, Dec, 2015. Them he fiinalized Brutal Dom 64 on 2016.

And by the way he it's working, yeah, im sure he it's working more faster and optimized than before, now he receive some money for this.

Also im talking about megawads proyects that it's geting long to release that are in the boom area, and worked by more that 1 people so... yeah, some proyect in comparations of Sgt.Iv are more slooow

Edited March 17, 2020 by jamondemarnatural

[[Vitz!]]

As much as I disagree with the necessity of this thread and hate the video's title I gotta confess that I found SgtMarkIV's opinion on the new direction the Doom franchise is taking to be quite interesting.

I don't necessarily agree with everything he says and I'm not nearly as negative as he is with the stuff he described about the games, but I can totally see where he comes from.

The only thing that both he and I agree 100% is that this new version of Doom will never replace the old doom. They have different directions and come from different eras of gaming, so this is to be expected.

^{That and the fact that I'm not that I don't really like the upgrade system that much as well. I'd rather have the good stuff from the start.}

[Taurus Daggerknight]

I like Brutal Doom quite a lot, and I mostly play classic Doom with some varient or spin-off mod of it for those five minute blow-off-steam moments one has. (yes, I use BD. Cry  me a river.). 

 

With that said...eh. I mean, the guy is certainly entitled to his opinion. And hey, it's not like he's going around trying to deliberately shit on everything D2016 or Eternal unlike some people.... with that said, I would disagree with a lot of things said. 

 

For one, I think he's falling into the same trap that a lot of classic Doom fans tend to. Which is, hailing even the most off hand things in OG Doom as being technical points of marvel and genius above everything that has come since. Specifically, in this case, the level design issue. While I won't say that OG Doom has BAD level design, I think it's unfair to suggest that other games since haven't matched or surpassed it in some ways. Doom 2016 had some damn FUN levels, both visually and on a gameplay level. And I think it's selling it way short to say it was more like Serious Sam than OG Doom (especially considering SS was itself a Doom nostalgia trip when it came out). 

 

Tone likewise was not at all inconsistent. Not the tone I would have picked personally.. I do prefer a more serious atmosphere myself. However, new iD picked a specific tone, and they've done a pretty consistent job of playing within the scope of that tone. They haven't whiplashed between being super grim and heavy vs. Warhammer levels of cheeky (IE, they didn't pull a Duke Nukem Forever). 

 

His points about the players mobility are also a bit.... odd. Whatever your technical run speed in OG Doom is, the more varied movement systems in new Doom naturally make the fight feel more chaotic and faster than anything in the classics did (And yes, before anyone fights me on this, I have indeed played unmodded Doom and Doom 2 from start to finish. I grew up playing them same as most folks here). 

 

Now unlike some people , I don't think his ideas of what he'd want to do with  a Doom reboot are bad per say. They mostly sound like what iD was -going- to do in some ways (more of a modern, serious focus on things), and I think that could be fun as well. My only real point of disagreement is that I don't think it would be inherently "better" than what we're getting, just different. 

 

I mean, hey, if he did decide to get actual funding and do a sort of "apocalypse war" indie game, I'd be curious. 

[Mortrixs19]

He has all the right to have opinion of course, It's not going to stop us from playing doom eternal. I agree on some stuff and I disagree on other stuff.

 

In my opinion the title of the video is misleading because from what I've seen on discord he's obviously going to play doom eternal. The video should be renamed to: ''Sgt Mark's gripes with doom eternal'' I think he named the video that way to spark some controversy (Like fraggle mentioned)