Doom Eternal's Deathmatch Shaped Hole

[phase3]

I suppose I'll get the ball rolling on the obligatory Doom Eternal multiplayer discussion and just share my two cents.

 

Id and Bethesda's failure to include multiplayer deathmatch is a huge mistake and arguably the biggest blemish to Doom's immensely important heritage, individual opinions of Doom 3 notwithstanding. The improvements to Doomguy's mobility and satisfactorily brutal and notably more balanced arsenal would lend themselves extremely well to a blisteringly fast and hectic deathmatch setting. Furthermore, the steeper difficulty and the way the game leads the player into managing resources and navigating the arena is a brilliant way to train newcomers to adapt quickly to the nuances of arena deathmatch.

 

Some have argued that id decided to explore a new direction for the mp because they don't want to gut the player base from Quake Champions by providing a gameplay experience perhaps too similar to their existing ip that has already proven less attractive to modern audiences due to considerably high skill requirements.

I would argue that the presence of a deathmatch mode would introduce much needed new blood to Quake Champions by giving console gamers and newer players a taste of the deeply satisfying world of fast paced arena dm. In my opinion, choosing to omit deathmatch from doom is borderline heretical and potentially damaging to Doom's legacy. Doom literally invented deathmatch and id later perfected it with Quake. For a game that is ostensibly Doom and Quake's stepchild, Battlemode feels like a disposable gimmick, an embarrassment to that legacy and the entire id brand.

 

Quote

 

"I'm a badass demon slayer in singleplayer, but when I go over to multiplayer, there are no demons, and it's just Deathmatch.’ I don't know what that has to do with [Doom] other than that, well, a couple of decades ago we had that, so we should just have that again.”

-Bethesda's Pete Hines

 

 

This may be the most unimaginably tone-deaf, revisionist and outright absurd pieces of PR I have ever read. I'm sure you all have read it before, but it bears repeating just as a microcosm of why many fans have complicated feelings concerning Doom Eternal's decidedly new direction, for better or worse. It could just as easily be said like "I'm a badass fragster in multiplayer, but when I go over to single player there are no human controlled opponents and it's just demons."

Imagine if they felt that the SSG is no longer important because it's "eons old" and because "a couple of decades ago we had that, so we should just have that again."

 

Quote

Creative director Hugo Martin adds that 2016’s multiplayer too often came down to “twitch skills vs twitch skills”.

 

 

Doom 2016's multiplayer was poorly received my most critics, and many fans considered it to be incongruent to the Doom experience the single player campaign had led them to expect. Other fans found a refreshing take on arena mp, a fun and functional bridge between the old-school map-control movement based gameplay and new-school ideas like loadouts and equipment usage. What it sounds like Hugo Martin is implying here is that 2016's MP offerings were literally too pure of a FPS experience. Why is this being characterized as a bad thing? I thought the sentiment was that Doom cared not to cater to the casual and pampered easycore playerbase?

 

In my limited experience with Battlemode, I don't anticipate spending myself sinking much time into it. There is no replacement for mastering a game in the single player and then testing your skills against others. I would have been really interested to see what new strats emerge with the dash and grappling hook. IMO, this is more than a missed opportunity and is nothing short of a huge mistake.

[RaikohZX]

To be fair, Pete Hines is notoriously stupid and arrogant, and should not be taken as the face of id's opinions. Just look at him disparaging Fallout fans for not appreciating 76.

[whatup876]

The problem with 2016's MP is that one of its red flags was a two weapon limit and it's like the devs didn't even admit that.

I don't think they saw what we saw when it came to "what went wrong", about that multiplayer. (or maybe they listened to different types of feedback and comments like "Doom is for SP, Quake is for MP" which seem like memes born out of flanderization from people that have surface level of both series)

If the devs wanted to look more into feedback, simply adding weapon pick ups and not restrain the number of carryable weapons to 2 would change things.

Also, Pete Hines had that infamous moment where someone talked to him on Twitter about a side plot in Fallout 4 and his answer was that it didn't matter, which explains why Fallout's universe suffers.

 

BattleMode looks innovative in some ways, but i don't think it has that much appeal to some people, specially with the 2 demon player limit and the easiest thing they could have done is an arena/horde/wave/survival/DMC Bloody Palace mode where the Doomguy just keeps killing demons and shit.

 

This whole "i'm not the Slayer" comment shows a difference between new and old Doom, where the older games didn't really care if there was more than one Doomguy because he was meant to represent the player or at least "that one UAC soldier that didn't die", hence the dead marines sharing the same armor and the iconic cover box art showing another marine in the back. (he represents co-op)

 

One thing BattleMode, much like 2016's multiplayer and SnapMap, need is actual longevity to the point it doesn't need internet connection, could use bots and the players can customize and sometimes mod it, without the need of the developers after 20 years.

Doom is Eternal because of the fanbase that controlled the games as if they owned them.

 

That's why i'm not a fan of signing up to certain services, pre-order/edition exlusive items or how you recieve the Unicorn skin (even if i don't care for it), because at some point, everything about a game and its contents should be preserved and accessable.

[Super Mighty G]

Quake Champions exists. 

[DoodGuy]

3 minutes ago, Super Mighty G said:

Quake Champions exists. 

It runs bad, has no playerbase, and doesn't feel like Quake. It's not a reason for Doom Eternal to not have deathmatch.

[holaareola]

I disagree. I think they got the Q3A movement down in QC perfectly.  And Quakeworld / CPM style movement with Anarki and Sorlag, although it's really fucking annoying and especially so in CTF.  Can't argue on the playerbase or performance though.  Usually with inferior graphics you at least have the comfort of superior speed, not so here.

 

I would have liked deathmatch in Doom, but I don't think it's a mistake from a business POV. I think arena style DM is out of fashion at the moment and the zombified state of QC probably factored into their decision.

[Allard]

I like Doom Eternal. And I would also like for Pete Hines to keep his piehole shut, especially after his claims about Fallout 76 "never having microtransactions" turned out to be a notoriously hollow lie.

[MrGlide]

id loses no matter what they would have done. every one bitched about D16's mp, no one played quake champions. Any kind of Dm and one side of the fence would start screaching and shit on it, so they did the smart move and did something new. makes sense to me and I don't blame them.

[qdash]

This game must be named different from Doom, it's not Doom. Doom is universe? Yes! It's already universe after all these years, with tons of elements that made Doom is Doom. Stupid idea to put everything in one single series. Doom is bigger than just another singleplayer FPS, way bigger and better. Goddamn parasites...

[jazzmaster9]

20 minutes ago, qdash said:

This game must be named different from Doom, it's not Doom. Doom is universe? Yes! It's already universe after all these years, with tons of elements that made Doom is Doom. Stupid idea to put everything in one single series. Doom is bigger than just another singleplayer FPS, way bigger and better. Goddamn parasites...

well thank god what we god was actually Doom. (regardless of what the vocal minority say)

 

20 minutes ago, qdash said:

Goddamn parasites...

I'm sure idSoftware are upset with the sucess they got...

 

Back to topic, While I do wish Doom Eternal had more traditional MP, the multiplayer of Doom 2016 left a bad taste in my mouth of how run of the mill it was, I understand why iD abandoned it (for now), Battlemode on the other hand was something fresh.

 

Edited March 23, 2020 by jazzmaster9

[corizeus]

Well, personally as a normal DOOM™ fan, I would say that I think BATTLEMODE™ is an excellent multiplayer gamemode, featuring asymmetric gameplay of the Doom Slayer™ VS two powerful demons. I also enjoy customizing my Doom Slayer™ to look like what ever I want, like the pink Doomicorn™ skin I got using Twitch Prime's 30-day free trial. Deathmatch is too hard for a player like me :]

[D4NUK1]

6 minutes ago, corizeus said:

Well, personally as a normal DOOM™ fan, I would say that I think BATTLEMODE™ is an excellent multiplayer gamemode, featuring asymmetric gameplay of the Doom Slayer™ VS two powerful demons. I also enjoy customizing my Doom Slayer™ to look like what ever I want, like the pink Doomicorn™ skin I got using Twitch Prime's 30-day free trial. Deathmatch is too hard for a player like me :]

/S

[Zemini]

I would love a DoomSlayer FFA or team mode.  But the developers pretty much went all in with BattleMode and the jury is still out on that...

 

TBH, a Cooperative MP mode would of been a lot better idea IMO.  Take the arenas we have already and have 4 players compete to kill waves of demons.  You could even have invasions from opposing players as well to spice it up a bit.

 

Better yet you could use a short level like Sentinel Prime and use that to have waves of enemies a random demon lord boss to fight at the end.

Edited March 24, 2020 by Zemini

[corizeus]

I was tossing around the idea of a 1v1 mode with the Doom Slayer fighting a demon with all of his abilities and likeness, but I feel like Hugo Martin would look at it and go "muh asymmetry" and delete the whole thing.

[qdash]

Gamedesign of DE making not possible any normal PvP or co-op. They just can't do it. GG WP.

[banjiepixel]

I was just thinking about this. Maybe full deathmatch mode would had been too much but why there isn't a Slayer vs Slayer 1vs1 option? We have Quake Champions for more popular types of deathmatch with more players and Quake games are more known for that type of stuff. Doom games have always had more limited deathmatch options with less players. Does anyone know anything specific that would stop them from just creating simple 1vs1 mode where two Doom Eternal Slayers could duel?

[MrGlide]

@banjiepixel ask them.

[mrthejoshmon]

I for one am disappointed with the lack of traditional MP modes, I will forever stand by and say that Doom 2016's multiplayer was, is and always will be one of the best arena shooter experiences ever made and I will vehemently push the idea that it was misunderstood by critics at the time who were unable to adapt to it, this notion was then parroted by most just through hear say and the others who actually played it enjoyed themselves or were put off by the now thankfully removed dodgy ass Certain Affinity additions.

 

When Id themselves overhauled the multiplayer a year later the change was immense, amazing even, they took a decent arena shooter and made it out-fucking-standing and I stand by that. The Doom 2016 multiplayer was good and made even better later on. Ask anyone who actually played this version and they will tell you a sweet story about how fuckin good it was, no lies when I say on Xbox One I could find a full server in minutes every day, I maxed multiplayer out, played every day after work, made friends, made rivals, won a tournament for crying out loud...

 

Id could've done it y'know, they had the unpopular Certain Affinity build that they overhauled into something amazing and it absolutely baffles me to no end why they'd abandon it now.

 

Sorry, just, really passionate about that.

[Deimos]

Doom 2016 multiplayer is amazing, "Possession"mode is super fun and "Warpath" was my drug.
Even with the present mechanics i'm sure that 4 slayers going at it would be amazeballs. You don't even have to work on balance, everyone has the same equipment...

[Flesh699]

I like Battlemode.  At first it's weird and seems unbalanced a bit but once you figure it out there's strategy involved and it gets sweaty.  

 

I think instead of them pushing competitive modes they should do something more coop oriented.  Something like just being marines and fighting off an invasion in coop specific maps.  Almost like the original AvP coop mode, but obviously better.  Hype that up, it'd probably market better and be more appealing to people if properly done.

 

Edit: Properly recreate classic Doom maps and coop it as classic Doomguys.  I mean ground up modern remakes.  That would be awesome.  

Edited March 26, 2020 by Flesh699

[A Nobody]

On 3/22/2020 at 3:20 PM, phase3 said:

I suppose I'll get the ball rolling on the obligatory Doom Eternal multiplayer discussion and just share my two cents.

 

Id and Bethesda's failure to include multiplayer deathmatch is a huge mistake and arguably the biggest blemish to Doom's immensely important heritage, individual opinions of Doom 3 notwithstanding. The improvements to Doomguy's mobility and satisfactorily brutal and notably more balanced arsenal would lend themselves extremely well to a blisteringly fast and hectic deathmatch setting. Furthermore, the steeper difficulty and the way the game leads the player into managing resources and navigating the arena is a brilliant way to train newcomers to adapt quickly to the nuances of arena deathmatch.

 

Some have argued that id decided to explore a new direction for the mp because they don't want to gut the player base from Quake Champions by providing a gameplay experience perhaps too similar to their existing ip that has already proven less attractive to modern audiences due to considerably high skill requirements.

I would argue that the presence of a deathmatch mode would introduce much needed new blood to Quake Champions by giving console gamers and newer players a taste of the deeply satisfying world of fast paced arena dm. In my opinion, choosing to omit deathmatch from doom is borderline heretical and potentially damaging to Doom's legacy. Doom literally invented deathmatch and id later perfected it with Quake. For a game that is ostensibly Doom and Quake's stepchild, Battlemode feels like a disposable gimmick, an embarrassment to that legacy and the entire id brand.

 

 

This may be the most unimaginably tone-deaf, revisionist and outright absurd pieces of PR I have ever read. I'm sure you all have read it before, but it bears repeating just as a microcosm of why many fans have complicated feelings concerning Doom Eternal's decidedly new direction, for better or worse. It could just as easily be said like "I'm a badass fragster in multiplayer, but when I go over to single player there are no human controlled opponents and it's just demons."

Imagine if they felt that the SSG is no longer important because it's "eons old" and because "a couple of decades ago we had that, so we should just have that again."

 

 

Doom 2016's multiplayer was poorly received my most critics, and many fans considered it to be incongruent to the Doom experience the single player campaign had led them to expect. Other fans found a refreshing take on arena mp, a fun and functional bridge between the old-school map-control movement based gameplay and new-school ideas like loadouts and equipment usage. What it sounds like Hugo Martin is implying here is that 2016's MP offerings were literally too pure of a FPS experience. Why is this being characterized as a bad thing? I thought the sentiment was that Doom cared not to cater to the casual and pampered easycore playerbase?

 

In my limited experience with Battlemode, I don't anticipate spending myself sinking much time into it. There is no replacement for mastering a game in the single player and then testing your skills against others. I would have been really interested to see what new strats emerge with the dash and grappling hook. IMO, this is more than a missed opportunity and is nothing short of a huge mistake.

Arena shooters or fps games with arena styled multiplayer existed on consoles before.

 

The lack of normal multiplayer is very dissapointing. The problem with Doom 4's deathmatch was that it was modern instead of old-school. Did id Software see that as the issue? No. They just think people are sick and tired of traditional deathmatch, so they scrapped that and made Battle Mode. They didn't think "Oh, people don't like the loadout system. Let's make Eternal's multiplayer more old-school like Classic Doom and Quake." It's sad.

Edited March 26, 2020 by The Strife Commando

[Mr. Impso]

I just desperately hope they plan to add more in the future, and that battle mode was just slapped onto the game so that they could say that the game has multiplayer, because when it comes to the campaign, if you're a good player and put some serious effort into it, it's pretty damn short, it just feels longer because of the lengthy encounters. 
the number one thing I hope gets added in the future is the phantom "invasion mode" where supposedly you could invade someone's game as a demon and fight them. 

[Doomkid]

Any time anyone says ANYTHING along the lines of “Doom doesn’t need Deathmatch”, “Quake does Deathmatch better”, “Just play QC”, “Deathmatch is stale” etc I just want to drag them into the middle of the field on Dwango5 Map01 and stuff an SSG barrel up their nose..

[corizeus]

On 3/25/2020 at 12:17 AM, qdash said:

Gamedesign of DE making not possible any normal PvP or co-op. They just can't do it. GG WP.

if fucking Call of Duty can fit 150 players in a single match I'm pretty sure id can squeeze another 14 of the Slayer's perfectly toned asscheeks into a decent Deathmatch gamemode

Edited March 28, 2020 by corizeus

[corizeus]

I think it's inevitable that Eternal's multiplayer is going to be reworked. They're probably going to break down and add "less unique" gamemodes like DM. Honestly what they should've done with their multiplayer is #1: Release the multiplayer for free to draw way more players in, #2: Launch with 1v1s in addition to Battlemode, and #3: Host invitational tournaments for Battlemode and 1v1. If Bethesda played their cards right, they could've made Doom Eternal an e-sport not unlike Quake or Fortnite. Sad stuff.

[Dr. Cheesesteak]

On 3/22/2020 at 1:25 PM, Super Mighty G said:

Quake Champions exists. 

I actually started this again b/c of no DM in Eternal lol.  I'm wondering if that was id/Bethesda's way of getting its playerbase back up.  

I think Battlemode is cool, despite the awful imbalance.  But yes, Eternal needs more online modes.  I get "we wanted to make online give the same experience as campaign", but...did that mean no other modes were allowed for those who want a different experience?

[scalliano]

On 3/22/2020 at 8:25 PM, Super Mighty G said:

Quake Champions exists. 

Well, yeah, but it's... y'know... Quake.

[corizeus]

2 minutes ago, scalliano said:

Well, yeah, but it's... y'know... Quake.

what about Quake, you heathen?

Edited March 29, 2020 by corizeus

[scalliano]

I love Quake, especially Q3A, but it's Quake. Doom isn't.

[corizeus]

true, usually when something isn't something it isn't