I'm a bit confused by the lore tbh

[NoXion]

39 minutes ago, Gez said:

It's said that Hell and Urdak are cosmologically opposite, and that it's impossible for a Maykr to travel to Hell (hence Khan Maykr needing the Sentinels as catspaws) and vice-versa, demons are barred from entering Urdak. That is, until the Icon of Sin is awakened in Urdak, as this breaks the seal.

 

Okay.

 

Question 1: why can argent energy travel directly from Hell to Urdak, if the two dimensions are opposites?

Question 2: how was the Icon of Sin brought into Urdak despite the seal and the incompatible nature?

Question 3: why didn't Khanie resurrect the Icon directly on Earth, since she can travel there and the demons can travel there too?

Is it explicitly stated that Maykrs can't physically travel to Hell? Because my impression was that it was more like a covenant made between Hell and Urdak, rather than something like a physical law. Hence the talk of seals being broken.

Edited April 20, 2020 by NoXion

[AtimZarr1]

1 hour ago, Gez said:

Question 1: why can argent energy travel directly from Hell to Urdak, if the two dimensions are opposites?

 

Maybe it had to do with the Maykr design of the transmission tower that the Sentinel slaves built in Nekroval. Its unique structure allowing the travel of Argent Energy across dimensions.

 

1 hour ago, Gez said:

Question 2: how was the Icon of Sin brought into Urdak despite the seal and the incompatible nature?

 

No idea. Maybe the seal applies only to living demons and the Icon was dead/dormant? Alternatively, maybe the Khan Maykr could choose to will exceptions.

 

1 hour ago, Gez said:

Question 3: why didn't Khanie resurrect the Icon directly on Earth, since she can travel there and the demons can travel there too?

 

Lots of potential interference on Earth and a much more unstable environment. Meanwhile, no human had ever set foot in Urdak, so she didn't expect to be interrupted there. Plus, a ritual on Earth would've saved the Slayer time since he wouldn't have had to travel to Nekroval.

[LucidLocomotive]

On 3/27/2020 at 8:09 AM, The Doommer said:

Exactly. There is not freaking way that 80 goddamn billions ago the weapons were the same and UAC existed since 80 billions ago. (Because Slayer knew UAC, he was Doomguy after all)

Hell, humans exist for about 300 thousand years.  This is the 22nd century. (2169 or close ?)

 

Time loop won't make sense, I said above how long we existed.

Time travel? Makes a bit more sense, but how does Doomguy end up going back 80 and more billions ago?!

 

 

Here is how it works. Doomguy is a normal marine, then the events of Ultimate Doom, Doom II: Hell on Earth, Final Doom, and Doom 64 happen (over the course of maybe 10 years idk). Then at the end of Doom 64, Doomguy decides to stay in Hell forever to kill demons. Eventually, they entomb him, then, the UAC in an alternate, parallel universe to the one Doomguy was born in start messing with Hell and discover Doomguys tomb. Then the events of Doom and Doom Eternal happen. So there is only one Doomguy, only one Hell, but there are many parallel universes with Earth and Mars, a multiverse, its as simple as that. 

[LucidLocomotive]

On 4/2/2020 at 6:00 PM, The Doommer said:

Why though?

 

I get that people say Hell is a travel point to alternate dimensions, but at this point there's no evidence  that he ever ended up in a different universe before the end of Doom 64

 

Which I never understood how he kills him when he shoves a crucible in his brain in Doom Eternal to kill him and the whole point of him finding the crucible was "A Titan can only be killed by the Crucible"

I think what they mean is "the only way a titan can be permanently killed, without the chance of being resurrected, is if you kill it with a crucible". So since you originally killed the IOS with a rocket launcher, it was able to be resurrected 

[whatup876]

Something i remember is how they say that demons come from corpses of killed/tortured humans or something.

In classic Doom, some enemies like Imps, Spider Mastermind's face, some wall textures (like the Satyr and old man one) and more have some "human-like" aspects.

Could be that Hell just makes some things close to humans because it would be weird and out-wordly for humans: familiar yet strange.

Same reason why they have goat aspects and other animalistic aspects too, like a parody, imitation or spitting image of Earth based life forms.

The Archvile isn't just an alien with mouth tubes, but also a skinny human corpse that starved itself to death or something. (which i guess fits the theme of resurrection)

 

Could also fit with the zombiefied humans and the worlds clashing or even how they use tech themselves, like they're insulting and mocking us.

So, if God creates, Satan imitates. (and sometimes steals)

[kawadec]

On 7/6/2020 at 8:07 PM, whatup876 said:

Something i remember is how they say that demons come from corpses of killed/tortured humans or something.

In classic Doom, some enemies like Imps, Spider Mastermind's face, some wall textures (like the Satyr and old man one) and more have some "human-like" aspects.

Could be that Hell just makes some things close to humans because it would be weird and out-wordly for humans: familiar yet strange.

Same reason why they have goat aspects and other animalistic aspects too, like a parody, imitation or spitting image of Earth based life forms.

The Archvile isn't just an alien with mouth tubes, but also a skinny human corpse that starved itself to death or something. (which i guess fits the theme of resurrection)

 

Could also fit with the zombiefied humans and the worlds clashing or even how they use tech themselves, like they're insulting and mocking us.

So, if God creates, Satan imitates. (and sometimes steals)

I like the idea of this explaining why the demons look different between Doom 2016 and Eternal. On Mars the Doom Slayer was awakened soon after the breakout began, and at that point the demons were probably morphing flesh into shapes based on the life forms of one of the previous worlds they consumed. It took longer for the Slayer to get to Earth, and in the meantime the invasion progressed to the point that the demons changed in appearance to reflect their new form of sustenance.

[whatup876]

I thought if a way to justify Eternal going too heavy on visual "feedback" was with stating that the helmet creates these visual colors and icons for Doomguy's view, so it can help him track stuff to find or to perform better in combat.

Like, when enemies are stunned, the glow effect could have been something from the helmet saying "this enemy is weak, you can now perform a glory kill".

And the 1 ups or question marks is because VEGA knew Doomguy plays videogames.

 

I also thought if Urdak would be better if it was a surprise before the game's release and were were to instead believe we'd get a typical Heaven at first.

Like, this is the first official Doom game where Doomguy actually goes to Heaven, so he'd be surprised finding out angels aren't exactly what he thinks.

Like the Khan Maykr would be this typical female angel at first, then you see some weird stuff in the Fortress of Doom or Nekravol then you see Urdak.

[NoXion]

3 hours ago, whatup876 said:

I thought if a way to justify Eternal going too heavy on visual "feedback" was with stating that the helmet creates these visual colors and icons for Doomguy's view, so it can help him track stuff to find or to perform better in combat.

Like, when enemies are stunned, the glow effect could have been something from the helmet saying "this enemy is weak, you can now perform a glory kill".

Isn't that implied all the way back in Doom 2016, with the the first-person animation of Doomguy putting on his Praetor suit helmet?

It's subtle, but I think it's there already. Doing it low-key through visual hints, rather than putting it front and centre in the exposition, makes sense for what we see of the Doom Slayer's character in-game. He's a dedicated user of demon-killing tools, not a whizz-kid showing off his shiny toy like Iron Man.

[geekmarine]

I guess with identity theft it's not really an issue, but I'm kind of interested in how the Seraphim managed to create an entire life for Dr. Samuel Haydn.  I mean, I can assume he transferred his consciousness into a cybernetic body to both conceal his true identity (since people would freak the fuck out if they saw the Seraphim for what he truly was), and to purge himself of the corruption which has plagued his people.  But playing Doom 2016 again, and going through the codex, it's clear that Dr. Samuel Haydn had a life of his own before the Seraphim showed up.  I'm also curious as to why he stole the essence of the Father in the first place, given that it's the reason that the Maykr made a pact with Hell in the first place.

[kawadec]

Regarding Samuel Hayden, the theory I was going with was that after Samur Makyr's exile from Urdak he underwent a sort of reincarnation, being reborn as a human and growing up to become the Samuel Hayden we know. This would make the Seraphim and Dr. Hayden one and the same the whole time. As for why (more theorizing here), he needed Earth's technology/resources to pursue his goal of "clean" Argent energy, and perhaps he believed he could sway humanity to his cause more effectively if he did so as one of them, as opposed to descending from the heavens unto the mortals like the Khan Makyr did with the Argenta people. The brain cancer his body developed was a slight complication, but nothing his knowledge of Makyr technology couldn't work around.

[Xyz]

Wait 

 

Disregarding Final DOOM and other official WADs of the time. It make Doomguy killed the Icon of Sin in Doom 2.

 

Didn't he killed another Icon of Sin before Doom 2016? Son of Betrayer ? Then the makyr resurrected the son Icon ? 

 

Manuals of OG Dooms state events happen somewhere in 21st century . NuDoom's ones are 2140s , (like Doom 3). I believe that can/probably will be fixed with some retconning by id. But at this point earth was invaded 2 times and almost wiped out of existence.

 

I refuse to believe parralel universe bs.

 

 

[igg]

8 hours ago, PaulRazvan95 said:

Manuals of OG Dooms state events happen somewhere in 21st century . NuDoom's ones are 2140s , (like Doom 3). I believe that can/probably will be fixed with some retconning by id. But at this point earth was invaded 2 times and almost wiped out of existence.

 

I refuse to believe parralel universe bs.

The  unused voice lines confirm the multiverse "I will send  you back to your home, the earth world in the 7th dimension, before the time of the demons. You may live there again as before no memory of all the suffering you have been through. All your loved ones will be there, waiting  to embrace you again. As if you have never left."

 

Doomguy killed IoS on the Earth in the 7th dimension and somehow entered Argent D'Nur in Doom 2016s dimension after killing demons in hell for years (Doom 64 ending). How and why he found a portal from hell to Argent D'Nurs dimension is still unanswered. Maybe he learned about the Khan Maykrs deal with the Dark Lord (in  hell) which could be considered a threat for the whole multiverse, since Urdak and hell the only entities which are present in multiple dimensions.

Edited July 17, 2020 by igg
More precise text

[Xyz]

Interesting...

 

So HDoom took place in the 69th dimension then. 

 

Jokes aside, parralel universes mean usually you have a parralel to a character too. Maybe they'll get around to those loopholes eventually. 

 

[geekmarine]

I was under the impression that the Argent D'Nur themselves had created a Hell portal, one that brought them to the outer plains of Hell.  Doomguy just happened to be in the area and was the first one they encountered before actually coming across any demons. Maybe not, but that seems to be the most plausible explanation, to me anyway.  They were fucking around with portal technology, he found them, and that would also contribute to his seeming insane ravings about the demons coming to kill them all - it wasn't just a vague, "They're out there and they'll come here," it was a, "You fuckers, you basically set out a welcome mat for them!"  At the very least, the Maykr must've had teleporter technology to even reach Argent D'Nur, and that's really all you need.  

[kawadec]

On 7/18/2020 at 7:52 PM, PaulRazvan95 said:

Jokes aside, parralel universes mean usually you have a parralel to a character too. Maybe they'll get around to those loopholes eventually.

 

Id could have some fun with that. Similar to how Doomguy is a descendant of B.J. Blazkowicz, would be fun to see if they someday connect the new Wolfenstein and Doom plots together. Like, in addition to Argent D'nur and the Makyrs being a thing in this universe, perhaps this Earth underwent a different timeline of events in which (among other things) the Nazis won WWII and Billy had twin daughters instead of a son. Perhaps the technological advancements of the Nazi dystopia helped bring the world to an energy crisis that much sooner, and perhaps Jessie and Zophia's descendants were out there somewhere during the events of Eternal, having their own fight against the demonic invasion.

Edited July 21, 2020 by kawadec

[whatup876]

If there were Mayrks or Sentinel in a different Doom timeline, i expect some radical differences.

Like Sentinel having a reverse/opposite origin where they came from Earth and moved to a different planet (due to time dilation, time was faster there) and they sticked to some christian heavy medieval/middle age tech aesthetic/culture where they fetishize the knights of olde while also having greater technology.

Them being god serving knights also come from being visited by an alternate Heaven while Earth was hit with Hell, so these Sentinel were mostly knights because this version of Heaven in itself would also have some knight there.

And to fix that classic Doom level visual abstractness, they could have walls of red energy and symbols as level textures for the theme.

 

Heaven being what i thought would come off as an inverse to classic Doom Hell or "what Heaven could have been" like i mentioned here.

 

Also, if there was a Heaven in Doom RPG series, i imagine some humorous take like unicorns or fairies being species only to get demolished by a Cyberdemon or innocent souls being like an old couple from a retirement home going "hey, how's my son down there going? i heard he turned into a green haired zombie, is that true, mister Doom man?".

 

Or maybe instead of Sentinel, we could have gotten actual medieval knights that were dealing with demons this whole time and some weird stuff like "Dante Alighieri and Hieronymus Bosch knew what Hell was and were mostly right except for some parts like the brains on metal legs, so i don't know why they didn't bring that up but they forgot".

[Hellektronic]

It's an extremely vague storyline in regard to how it relates to the original Doom/Doom2/Doom 64 timeline, if at all... which, I don't honestly think it's meant to.

 

If you take a step back and look at the storylines of 2016 and Eternal, they're literally just retellings of the original Doom and Doom 2. The cyberdemon, the spider mastermind, the icon of sin... it's all there. So it's very possible that this is like a parallel dimension of Earth or a different universe entirely, but the Doomguy is more or less the same guy. I think somewhere either time travel or parallel dimension crap resulted in a different world where demons never invaded Earth until the events of Eternal.

 

Thus, I think the term "resurrection" is applied loosely in regards to the Icon of Sin. See, the Doomslayer was sealed away in Kadingir before the final battle took place between the Night Sentinels and the Icon of Sin... meaning, it couldn't have been killed by the Doomslayer, therefore it was never killed. I think it just means "resurrected" in the sense that the Icon is a superweapon the demons seal away and only awaken when its absolutely necessary. You see it in 2016, it's certainly not a corpse... it's just... sleeping. Maybe dead? But not killed by enemies of hell.

 

 

[igg]

2 hours ago, Hellektronic said:

If you take a step back and look at the storylines of 2016 and Eternal, they're literally just retellings of the original Doom and Doom 2. The cyberdemon, the spider mastermind, the icon of sin... it's all there. So it's very possible that this is like a parallel dimension of Earth or a different universe entirely, but the Doomguy is more or less the same guy. I think somewhere either time travel or parallel dimension crap resulted in a different world where demons never invaded Earth until the events of Eternal.

I think you are right, the unused voice lines confirm the multiverse: "I will send you back to your home, the earth world in the 7th dimension, before the time of the demons. You may live there again as before no memory of all the suffering you have been through. All your loved ones will be there, waiting  to embrace you again. As if you have never left."

Edited July 29, 2020 by igg

[Hellektronic]

I'm assuming that voiceline was from the Khan Makyr during Sentinel Prime, hah... she came close in the game to spilling the beans during that part, but never actually did.

[Scrabbs]

never mind that, did Tony Hawk die in the hell invasion or did his wicked skills help fight off the demons?

[thewormofautumn]

Very interesting comment from Hugo on IGN's DLC trailer deep dive:

 

Quote

our heaven, which is called Urdak is kind of like this interdimensional highway and the demons now have access to all these different dimensions

 

I highlighted the interesting bit. We all suspected that Urdak and Hell were both a nexus to the "multiverse". But it seems Hugo implies only Urdak is. Which means across the multiverse, there are multiple Hells. Even though Doomguy told the Argenta "they are coming", they likely were coming, but from this universe's Hell, not his own.

 

Video Link

Edited August 31, 2020 by thewormofautumn

[Hunting4r2d2]

7 hours ago, thewormofautumn said:

Very interesting comment from Hugo on IGN's DLC trailer deep dive:

 

 

I highlighted the interesting bit. We all suspected that Urdak and Hell were both a nexus to the "multiverse". But it seems Hugo implies only Urdak is. Which means across the multiverse, there are multiple Hells. Even though Doomguy told the Argenta "they are coming", they likely were coming, but from this universe's Hell, not his own.

 

Video Link

I don't think they're implying that there are multiple Hells, rather that Hell just doesn't access to multiple dimensions like Urdak does. Usually, in order for Hell to invade a realm a link needs to be established between them and another dimension. However, with Urdak they can basically invade whatever they want.

[thewormofautumn]

10 hours ago, Hunting4r2d2 said:

I don't think they're implying that there are multiple Hells, rather that Hell just doesn't access to multiple dimensions like Urdak does. Usually, in order for Hell to invade a realm a link needs to be established between them and another dimension. However, with Urdak they can basically invade whatever they want.

 

I like that explanation. So Hell almost needs to be "summoned" to our mortal realm via an accident (teleportation mistake) or intent (ritual).

Urdak doesn't need summoning...

 

Okay I dig that.

[whatup876]

I still think there could be different Hell's or some "planes" of it because of how different the new one is to the classic one.

Unless this being a bit of a retcon is an intentional reference to classic Doom caring less about its own story, it retconned itself too hard and lead to something more focused and different.

[Hunting4r2d2]

1 hour ago, whatup876 said:

I still think there could be different Hell's or some "planes" of it because of how different the new one is to the classic one.

Unless this being a bit of a retcon is an intentional reference to classic Doom caring less about its own story, it retconned itself too hard and lead to something more focused and different.

I think the different look is just due to us visiting different places of hell. Hell appears to be an endless dimension of chaos, so it's not to crazy to believe that we're just visiting different areas of hell. I mean, Hell is said to consume multiple different dimensions, so what's not to say that some of the places we visit in Hell are just the remains of other worlds that have now be consumed (we know for a fact that part of Argent D'nur was consumed by Hell).

 

Honestly though, it's just up to interpretation. When it comes to Hell there are no rules on what the environments are like, which is why I think Hell is such a cool place to visit in Doom games.