Tormentor667. Care to explain why you plagiarised Epic 2?

[Dragonfly]

@Redneckerz That's sad news and I'm sorry for their loss, however that does not and will not change my stance on this. My OP is indeed aggressive, and rightly so. Skulldash is a project I spent nine years on. Let that sink in for a minute. Nine years. This was more or less the entirety of my teenage years, and then some after that. I now discover that it has a horrible mark against it - plagiarism is something that upsets me (and many others) to the core - I am someone who spends most of my life making my own art or experiencing other people's art; be that painting, graphics, drawings, levels, music, dance, or any other medium. I fail to be able to supportive to someone who steals other people's art then claiming it as their own.

 

I'm sorry the timing coincides with an unfortunate aspect of T667's life though, however, had this instance of plagiarism been raised any earlier or later I would have posted about it at that time, and I would have done the same action regardless of who the person was. 

 

As for those questioning the importance of 'just a few bits of a map' - sure, we've all remixed E1M1; sure, we've all taken inspiration from one another's works; but when that is done it's made obvious, and where possible, with the permission of the original author. Also, I don't know every linedef of every map ever made, who's to say there isn't more of this piece of work that is stolen content? Given that more history of plagiarism has been made known via this thread, I'm willing to bet that quite a lot of it is in fact, stolen. Sorry, if you don't like that, but that's how I see it.

[Redneckerz]

4 minutes ago, Marn said:

 

You do realize how you're coming across here right 

I hope in a right way. But ive put forward the PSA and that's where i leave it.

[rampancy]

4 minutes ago, Horus said:

 

What better way is there? If someone has plagiarised, then the community deserves to know.

i respectfully disagree.

 

things like this can be resolved privately and directly (without making it a public shame fest). this is not good for the community to attack each other and take sides. i dont want to see anyone driven away. we all agree plagarism is bad. worst case scenario, its a lapse of judgement that only affects two parties, maybe a few people at most. 

 

tbh its really no one elses business. 

[Tarnsman]

People worrying about things like "the line" are completely missing the point.

 

All art is created on the back of work that came before it. Be it painting, writing, music, or even doom mapping. There are a litany of inspirations present in basically every major doom project.

 

Tom Mustaine was famously told by American McGee to get his own geometry after he made his version of The Inmost Dens. The Inmost Dens would make another appearance in Plutonia as Neurosphere and from there act as the basis for two maps literally named after it in The Inmost Dens II and The Inmost Dens III found in MM and HR2 respectively. Its influence has gone beyond that. Maps like Helix in PRCP being continuations of Nuerosphere's legacy and even more direct things such as Flooded Library by Jimmy in D2TWID.

 

Plutonia itself is a constant barrage of Doom 1 and Doom 2 levels reimagened through the Casali's style.

 

None of these things have ever caused a commotion or an issue. Because that's not the same thing as this at all.

 

This sort of thing is not homage or inspiration or anything of the sort.

 

Look at the shapes that he copied directly. It's not some super intricate thing where he wanted to use it as a reference point for general shape and size. They're standard size mostly orthogonal sectors that if it wasn't for the fact that there are multiple of them in the same map clearly directly copied, one could easily argue are so standard that it's hard to say it's plagiarized.

 

It is directly copying portions of other work, that are not immediately recognizable to evoke the notion of clear homage (the same way as say Map 32 of Plutonia) and then using them to just fill out small portions of a map. This is more a product of laziness than artistic verve. Just draw your own sectors.

[Major Arlene]

Just now, rampancy said:

i respectfully disagree.

 

things like this can be resolved privately and directly (without making it a public shame fest). this is not good for the community to attack each other and take sides. i dont want to see anyone driven away. we all agree plagarism is bad. worst case scenario, its a lapse of judgement that only affects two parties, maybe a few people at most. 

 

tbh its really no one elses business. 

you realize who Torm is, right? He's made a lot of contributed maps, in other people's projects that have been out for years. it effects way more than a couple people. it's also way more than a lapse of judgement- it is a conscious choice.

[Dragonfly]

Wholeheartedly disagree. Not making it known that someone has done wrong provides said person with the means to do it again.

[Redneckerz]

4 minutes ago, Dragonfly said:

@Redneckerz That's sad news and I'm sorry for their loss, however that does not and will not change my stance on this. My OP is indeed aggressive, and rightly so. Skulldash is a project I spent nine years on. Let that sink in for a minute.

Lets do that for both these things. I understand its no delight to find something you worked hard on on a hobbyist's nature see diminished.

 

However, lets wait till Torm can address this properly. The timing of these two things is something incredibly unfortunate, and it definitely sets tension.

 

Just... Lets also sink in a minute what Torm is going through.

 

I realize that it feels for you that something close was taken away from you, i truly do. But in Torm's case, its more than a project labor of love that got taken away.

 

That's all i want to emphatize.

 

In the end, nobody wins. We are all a losing party in this situation. :/

4 minutes ago, Dragonfly said:

 

 

 

See above :)

[Jimmy]

Let Torm speak for himself, dude.

[esselfortium]

1 minute ago, rampancy said:

i respectfully disagree.

 

things like this can be resolved privately and directly (without making it a public shame fest). this is not good for the community to attack each other and take sides. i dont want to see anyone driven away. we all agree plagarism is bad. worst case scenario, its a lapse of judgement that only affects two parties, maybe a few people at most. 

 

tbh its really no one elses business. 

I spoke with Tormentor privately about his plagiarism of my resources all the way back in 2012, and Dragonfly's and MTrop's examples have demonstrated that handling things privately had no effect on his behavior.

[Dragonfly]

And Skulldash was how I coped with two deaths in my family and the loss of who I believed to be the love of my life at the time. I'm not trying to use that as ammo to counter your point, and you've raised it several times. Please do as you advise and wait for Torm to respond on their own accord. Thank you.

[Morpheus666]

i don't condone this behavior but before we grab our pitchforks and set up a cross, We should hear Tormentor's side of the story, Idk what happened or why he chose to do this but there might be a actual definitive reason for why he did this, Like is said before his side matters too.

 

innocent Till proven guilty is my stand on this.

[⇛Marnetmar⇛]

5 minutes ago, Morpheus666 said:

i don't condone this behavior but before we grab our pitchforks and set up a cross, We should hear Tormentor's side of the story, Idk what happened or why he chose to do this but there might be a actual definitive reason for why he did this, Like is said before his side matters too.

 

innocent Till proven guilty is my stand on this.

I respect that you might take issue with how OP is presented but here's the deal:

 

It's either plagiarism or it's not. 

 

DF has made an irrefutable case here. There are no two sides to this. 

[Major Arlene]

3 minutes ago, Morpheus666 said:

Yes but have you even took into account if the evidence wasn't fabricated?

Idk fam, this looks pretty close to me

Edited April 5, 2020 by Major Arlene

[Tristan]

Sorry to interrupt the incessant circlejerking and tin-foil hattery but here's the original collection of in-game shots of Skulldash MAP38 and various Epic 2 maps that were posted on Discord. Look at them. Really look at them.

Skulldash A - Epic 2 A

Skulldash B - Epic 2 B

Skulldash C - Epic 2 C

Skulldash D - Epic 2 D

Skulldash E - Epic 2 E 

[Morpheus666]

Just now, Dragonfly said:

I'm highly questioning how thick the tin foil hat on your head must be.

yes your evidence holds some water but your respect for others is clearly lacking. I have had bullshit posted about me being accused of doing shit before and i know how it feels to be kicked out of a community because they believed the others instead of my side of the story, Yes he probably did copy some portions but he altered the maps slightly so he could have just used it as a base to create a new map, (if This was the case then yes he probably should have credited the maps original creator)

[Liberation]

I would say that those photos alone, let alone Dragonfly's editor based evidence is indisputable. 

[Major Arlene]

Just now, Morpheus666 said:

yes your evidence holds some water but your respect for others is clearly lacking. I have had bullshit posted about me being accused of doing shit before and i know how it feels to be kicked out of a community because they believed the others instead of my side of the story, Yes he probably did copy some portions but he altered the maps slightly so he could have just used it as a base to create a new map, (if This was the case then yes he probably should have credited the maps original creator)

what part of the Epic 2 text file was not abundantly clear to you?
NONE OF IT CAN BE REUSED OR MODIFIED.
there is not even a point of crediting, it is flat out not allowed as said by the author.

[Morpheus666]

I'm being the bigger person and stepping out of this circle-jerk, if you all want to rant and yell about his wrongdoings go for it! But in any case don't bother me with it,

 

And to Tormentor667, I stand by you even through this hard time as You have made fantastic maps in the past and you have inspired many people (myself included). Good luck to the future! I hope you can overcome this.

[warman2012]

Ok, after reading these posts, I do have one question. OK, if the Epic 2 author didn't want any portion of the maps copied that's fine. However, given that this mapping community is nearing 30 years old, it has to be asked. How does the community react if a map that was created original coincidentally has a section of map that is very similar to another map? There are god knows how many maps by now and there has to be one or two that have done the same thing.

Edited April 5, 2020 by warman2012

[Doomkid]

Thievery is scummy, not crediting people for their work is scummy.

 

I’m personally of the mind that mappers and modders should not only allow but encourage others to use their creations as a basis to build new or transformative works. As a strong believer in the principle of fair use I’m surprised this general idea is not pushed more overall. That doesn’t excuse blatant thievery and not crediting others for their hard work, of course.

 

Edit: The fact that he used plagiarised assets in a fucking community project - thus damning everyone else involved - is scummy four times over! 

[⇛Marnetmar⇛]

1 minute ago, warman2012 said:

Ok, after reading these posts, I do have one question. OK, if the Epic 2 author didn't want any portion of the maps copied that's fine. However, given that this mapping community is nearing 30 years old, it has to be asked. How does the community react if a map that was created originally coincidentally has a section of map that is very similar to another map? There are god knows how many maps by now and there has to be one or two that have done the same thing.

This isn't coincidental now is it

[maxmanium]

1 minute ago, warman2012 said:

Ok, after reading these posts, I do have one question. OK, if the Epic 2 author didn't want any portion of the maps copied that's fine. However, given that this mapping community is nearing 30 years old, it has to be asked. How does the community react if a map that was created originally coincidentally has a section of map that is very similar to another map? There are god knows how many maps by now and there has to be one or two that have done the same thing.

 

I don't think we've hit that point yet, but it's a valid question nonetheless. I don't think Dragonfly's post would be so accusatory had his evidence not been so overwhelmingly strong. If just one section of one map looks kinda similar to another I don't think anyone reasonable would flip their shit (at least not before looking into it further). Think of it like asking when we will run out of music.

[Terrcraft]

Are there any other examples of him doing this.

[Dragonfly]

10 minutes ago, Morpheus666 said:

yes your evidence holds some water but your respect for others is clearly lacking. I have had bullshit posted about me being accused of doing shit before and i know how it feels to be kicked out of a community because they believed the others instead of my side of the story

 

So do I, it's why I avoid toxic communities. False accusations are absolutely awful and immensely damaging. But this accusation is far from false, no? Do you feel that there isn't enough evidence?

 

I am eagerly anticipating a response from Torm, I made this thread with the intent of getting their side of the story. I don't possibly know what could be said to salvage the situation here, but I'm very keen for a response all the same.

 

4 minutes ago, Morpheus666 said:

circle-jerk

 

If you want your stance in this to hold any weight, stop trying to demonise people then contradicting yourself by, in your words, 'circle-jerking' the torm side of the coin. 

 

 

3 minutes ago, warman2012 said:

Ok, after reading these posts, I do have one question. OK, if the Epic 2 author didn't want any portion of the maps copied that's fine. However, given that this mapping community is nearing 30 years old, it has to be asked. How does the community react if a map that was created originally coincidentally has a section of map that is very similar to another map? There are god knows how many maps by now and there has to be one or two that have done the same thing.

 

Laughable that this many instances in a single project would be possible. You've got more chances of winning the lottery multiple times.

Edited April 5, 2020 by Dragonfly

[Linguica]

The server is being brutally murdered by the mass F5s at the moment (is a 1000% load average good?) but I figure that means the drama is self-limiting.

[Horus]

2 minutes ago, Morpheus666 said:

I'm being the bigger person and stepping out of this circle-jerk, if you all want to rant and yell about his wrongdoings go for it! But in any case don't bother me with it,

 

And to Tormentor667, I stand by you even through this hard time as You have made fantastic maps in the past and you have inspired many people (myself included). Good luck to the future! I hope you can overcome this.

The ‘bigger person’ thing to do would have been to admit that you were wrong and leave it there.

[Major Arlene]

2 minutes ago, warman2012 said:

Ok, after reading these posts, I do have one question. OK, if the Epic 2 author didn't want any portion of the maps copied that's fine. However, given that this mapping community is nearing 30 years old, it has to be asked. How does the community react if a map that was created originally coincidentally has a section of map that is very similar to another map? There are god knows how many maps by now and there has to be one or two that have done the same thing.

as addressed before, homages are fine, however it's pretty evident that these lines are very, very lazily copy-pasted. it's highly unlikely that two rooms would look the exact same way if created from scratch by different authors.

[Shawny]

Yeah, I will regret what I am about to write, but I look at the pictures and see some super generic rooms.

On the one that kinda makes the situation even worse on the other, when I was the title of the post I thought

he plagiarised something really unique and amazing.

 

Bottom line, plagiarism is bad, and I DO NOT ADVOCATE IT, but we should consider what and how much was plagiarised.

 

[warman2012]

5 minutes ago, Major Arlene said:

as addressed before, homages are fine, however it's pretty evident that these lines are very, very lazily copy-pasted. it's highly unlikely that two rooms would look the exact same way if created from scratch by different authors.

I'll agree the evidence here shows pretty much possible plagiarism or sloppy editing at the least. However, given the thousands of maps out there done a million ways, there is bound to be one or two that will be extremely similar. Odds are they won't, but in my experience, I've been shocked by impossible coincidences before.

Edited April 5, 2020 by warman2012
clarification on wording

[⇛Marnetmar⇛]

2 minutes ago, Shawny said:

Yeah, I will regret what I am about to write, but I look at the pictures and see some super generic rooms.

On the one that kinda makes the situation even worse on the other, when I was the title of the post I thought

he plagiarised something really unique and amazing.

 

Bottom line, plagiarism is bad, and I DO NOT ADVOCATE IT, but we should consider what and how much was plagiarised.

 

So is plagiarism bad or not