Mick Gordon unlikely to work on another Doom game after Eternal’s OST release

[D4NUK1]

Don't get you hopes all up.
 

[Man of Doom]

So before I post my thoughts, I want to share something that an id Software dev had known about the incident.

This will be as concise as possible and I will make it a point to leave out as many identifying details because I don’t want anyone to harangue this dev on any details.

 

The only real development to come out of this incident is that there was a lawsuit and has long since been settled.

And that while there were “a lot of fires in the kitchen during the development of Eternal”, “pulling a fast one on Mick” wasn’t one of them and it’s not in any game studio’s best interest to “just be a dick”.

 

 

Now, for my thoughts.

 

At best, this latest thing seems to be bringing attention to the fact that nothing has been done with the OST, not even the supposed release of said OST to Spotify, Apple Music, etc.

At worst, this latest thing looks to be an attempt to get id or Bethesda to cave via #ReleaseTheSnyderCut tactics which I highly doubt will work.

 

The thing is, Mick hasn’t really had a history of attempting something like the latter, but he is the one who said that “Doom fans will burn your house down if you do something they don’t like”. That, and there’s the fact that he tweeted that like right after Hugo’s and Marty’s QuakeCon panel.

 

That being said, I don’t think that Mick is knowingly trying to invoke the wrath of the Doom fanbase or anything like that.

I doubt there’s any kind of knowing malice or malfeasance going on, either way. Especially not after the Internet Hate Machine even went after him, too.

 

And either way, I am so fucking done with this entire shitshow.

Just let Mick do the OST mixing because the bad shit has long since passed and we can finally put everything to bed. That, or just release the OST as-is and call it a fucking day.

 

Jesus tap-dancing Christ on a stick.

Edited August 20, 2021 by Man of Doom

[Faceman2000]

On 8/19/2021 at 8:33 PM, Man of Doom said:

That being said, I don’t think that Mick is knowingly trying to invoke the wrath of the Doom fanbase or anything like that.

He did just that - arguably unintentionally - to Chad Mossholder last year. Either he somehow hasn’t learned a single thing from his mistakes or he is indeed trying to weaponize angry fanboys.

 

One option seems more likely to me.

[OliveTree]

wait, really, have they not released the ost to digital music platforms? 

[Agent Slacker]

52 minutes ago, OliveTree said:

have they not released the ost to digital music platforms? 

No, and by the sounds of it, it probably won't ever happen.

[Biodegradable]

Plenty of people have ripped the CD, so you can find the tracks on YouTube and elsewhere if you want 'em badly enough.

[chemo]

On 8/23/2021 at 11:49 PM, Agent Slacker said:

No, and by the sounds of it, it probably won't ever happen.

 

If anything, this shows that id Software are serious about keeping the soundtrack's quality up to par. AFAIK, there's nothing stopping them from releasing the Collector's Edition version of the OST on iTunes, Spotify, etc. If they didn't want Mick to finish his work as much as the rest of us do, then what other reason could there be for them not to release what they have got done already?

[Man of Doom]

On 8/23/2021 at 2:32 PM, Faceman2000 said:

He did just that - arguably unintentionally - to Chad Mossholder last year. Either he somehow hasn’t learned a single thing from his mistakes or he is indeed trying to weaponize angry fanboys.

I literally just mentioned that the angry fanboys went after him too after Marty’s open letter.

 

Nevertheless, no matter how any thing might be perceived according to either party, I think it would be in everyone’s best interest for Mick to just bite the bullet, swallow his pride, and issue a public apology.

Especially after the way everything went down.

 

Even if it is just to preserve the best possible optics and any hope to rework the Eternal OST let alone any future Doom titles because this latest development does NOT look good on his part and the timing of it all makes it look suspicious.

 

And honestly, even though I can’t guarantee that even a public apology will automatically get Mick back on id’s good side let alone finally allow him to redo the OST… but it really can’t hurt to try.

That, and a few nice words about Andrew and David could definitely help.

 

On 8/25/2021 at 3:53 AM, chemo said:

AFAIK, there's nothing stopping them from releasing the Collector's Edition version of the OST on iTunes, Spotify, etc. If they didn't want Mick to finish his work as much as the rest of us do, then what other reason could there be for them not to release what they have got done already?

Yeah, that is kind of the million-dollar question right there.

 

It’s pretty clear that either id or Bethesda has no desire to release the OST in its current form, since said current form… isn’t very good.

Not just in terms of mixing but also that a huge chunk of it is more a glorified soundpack than an actual OST.

Edited August 27, 2021 by Man of Doom

[whatup876]

Anyway, i was trying to think why i liked the Gladiator theme that much, then i realized: it was like an industrial metal song being composed like an orchestral concert music.

Like a type of music mimicking another and it's funny how it's in a fight taking place in a gladiator arena.

It's probably why it felt so "expressive".

 

Now imagine a theater play based on Doom.

[Man of Doom]

Nothing of note has happened as of this writing, this is something I just wanted to get off my chest.

 

Ever since the open letter from Marty came out, I’ve come to see this mindset of “I never liked Mick’s work anyway” crop up a lot. It’s been shown here on this very thread, I’ve seen it on Twitter and other assorted forums, you get the idea.

 

So I feel like this mindset is dishonest, summed up succinctly by this thread as well as several replies:

 

To cut to the chase here, acting like Mick’s contributions to the Doom franchise have zero redeeming qualities as a whole is not only extremely disrespectful to the guys at id and especially Chad Mossholder because they’re basically being shamed for having worked with Mick, it’s also extremely disrespectful to Andrew Hulshult and David Levy because they basically had to follow in Mick’s footsteps in order to make their contributions work as well as they did.

This mindset in question is such a grotesque practice, and makes it clear your intent is not to warn people about a potentially harmful person, but to simply assert over others that you are a morally good person, while at the same time, shaming those who did enjoy said person's works, as if enjoying something made by a shitty person automatically makes that person morally corrupt.

I personally find this mindset deeply repugnant, and it’s not the sick dunk one might think it is.

 

Additionally, it also forces the idea that people can't change and that you can somehow identify bad people in advance through their work.

It's both dangerous for people who did wrong and seek to become better, and people who are so convinced that the bad is someone else that they'll never self-reflect.

 

On a side note: When people go “I’m glad THIS content creator that I like is good!!” (like what is being done with David Levy and especially Andrew Hulshult in this instance), I feel like they are setting themselves up for a repeat event because of this exact mentality.

This isn’t to say that they might pull a similar stunt, but that they might make a mistake by accident and I’m afraid that’ll somehow be enough for the Internet Hate Machine to go after them.

 

And that’s not even to say that Mick is some horrible monster-person or anything like that because he isn’t.

 

It’s very clear that he fucked up. That doesn’t automatically make him an abuser or whatnot.

Besides, more than anything, it's extremely likely that the main emotion driving this whole shitshow is spur-of-the-moment frustration.

Hell, this latest development of “Mick calls out id or Bethesda in the middle of QuakeCon” was more than likely made under the assumption that whoever is holding the rights to the Doom Eternal OST is just sitting on it and has no plans to release it in any form.

And if it seems like I’ve been defending Mick, it’s because I’ve fucked up in my personal life in very similar ways to how he fucked up, and I can tell you this purely from personal experience:

 

Once I was done being awful, I felt awful.

 

 

And that’s why I made the case on him issuing a public apology to id because they were very clearly caught in the crossfire of all this.

 

TL;DR- People are not set in stone, and you should never put them on pedestals.

Edited September 20, 2021 by Man of Doom

[Teo Slayer]

Andrew Hulshult is good too

[Teo Slayer]

On 4/20/2020 at 2:58 AM, Tony_Danza_the_boss said:

Yet another reason Eternal is such a huge step down from 2016. Soundtrack was meh at best and as the OP put it, Mick is capable of such better work than the mediocre tracks we got in Eternal

What do you mean bro? I liked Eternal's OST more than 2016's OST

[Man of Doom]

Seemingly as of a few days ago, these two videos were posted on Mick’s Instagram (obviously they’re gone as of the time of this post since they were posted as Stories which automatically disappear after 24 hours):

 

 

Additionally, someone had caught the guitar strokes of what was being played in the first video and actually reached out to Mick about the song that was being played:

 

Temper your expectations.

 

This is not a guarantee that we’ll finally be seeing what was supposed to be the Doom Eternal OST anytime soon, but one can hope that he and id are finally back on good terms considering this latest development.

 

EDIT: Here’s what all that was basically leading up to:

 

Edited January 25, 2022 by Man of Doom

[Man of Doom]

I know, double-post.

 

 

So I might as well cut to the chase here:

 

It’s already been two years to the day since the announcement of the Doom Eternal soundtrack, and aside from the Mick Gordon shitshow, there’s been nothing but radio silence (not even anything on whether the OST is to finish being mixed in-house instead of getting Mick to finish it since it seems like they haven’t asked him).

 

”BUT IT WAS ALREADY RELEASED, THO”

It was only released to those who have the Collector’s Edition of Doom Eternal, and not everyone had access to it. It was specifically mentioned a release would be coming for platforms like Spotify or Apple Music.

 

”BUT GAMERIPS, THO”

Sure they’re accessible, but most of them are only found on YouTube. Plus, there’s the matter of said gamerips easily being taken down (I mean, look at what happened with Koma who basically announced his retirement from YouTube some time ago). Plus, there was that whole thing with a copyright troll running around getting entire channels nuked over gamerips (specifically Doom Eternal gamerips). 

“BUT TAG SOUNDTRACK, THO”

We still don’t know anything about the possibility of the TAG soundtrack even seeing a release; Andrew hasn’t really mentioned anything about it and David has only really mentioned that aside from a few snippets of his work on his YouTube channel, he’s not quite at liberty to discuss the possibility just yet.

 

 

I’m going to be real with you:

We may never know what really happened between Mick and id Software (or Bethesda or whatever).

 

And at this point, I don’t really care anymore if id and Mick decided to make up or not (all that I know is that I’m beyond fucking tired of people calling id “corporate sellouts” as well as people calling Mick a “clout-chasing fake who milks imaginary problems for pity”).

It was never worth resorting to attacking people we personally do not know.

 

I do know that id has been so much more transparent with us than most other game development studios, and I also know that Doom Eternal was an absolute passion project for Mick.

 

 

If we’re going to see the soundtrack finally get released, or even an update? We need to know sooner rather than later (especially if it all turns out that it finally gets announced at QuakeCon or something like that). Hell, even if we just get the TAG soundtrack and not the base game soundtrack.

 

If we’re not going to get the soundtrack released at all? Then they need to tell us so that we can finally move on without any ambiguity or lingering questions.

 

 

I can only imagine it’s been a chapter that’s been particularly painful for everyone involved (both for Mick and for the guys at id), and I can only imagine that everyone involved is beyond tired of being asked about it and would much rather be left alone on that particular topic.

 

I can’t insist that we’re somehow due the courtesy of an update, but I can only hope that this chapter is finally closed sooner rather than later.

Edited April 18, 2022 by Man of Doom

[Faceman2000]

Like you said, it's been two years. If they had any plans in regards to this, they'd have announced them.

 

Should probably move on. It looks like everyone involved already has.

[Gez]

On mardi 25 janvier 2022 at 4:37 AM, Man of Doom said:

Seemingly as of a few days ago, these two videos were posted on Mick’s Instagram (obviously they’re gone as of the time of this post since they were posted as Stories which automatically disappear after 24 hours):

They didn't last long on Youtube either.

[Man of Doom]

1 hour ago, Faceman2000 said:

Should probably move on. It looks like everyone involved already has.

Like I said, I can’t really force anyone to just give us an update (plus I imagine they’d much rather be left alone). I mean, nobody can.

It’s just that I just know that even though everyone wants to move on, the OST situation has just been this albatross that been hanging over people’s heads for some time.

 

Case in point, the comments section of Mick’s Instagram page has basically consisted of “ARE YOU FINALLY FINISHING THE DOOM ETERNAL OST” for at least a year now. I can definitely imagine that getting annoying as hell (especially if it’s over a situation well beyond your control).

 

Hell, I could just point to that one tweet from the official id Software Twitter page about the OST and how said tweet basically became a meme unto itself.

 

1 hour ago, Gez said:

They didn't last long on Youtube either.

Eh, I figured they’d last about a month at most, tops.

Edited April 18, 2022 by Man of Doom

[Koko Ricky]

This thread has me thinking about all the unnecessary attention and bickering that arose because of the Will Smith slap. Despite lacking any knowledge of the specific relationships between those involved, many of us couldn't wait to tell everyone how things should have transpired, which is arrogant timewasting. A similar reaction is found here. 

 

It cannot be answered what exactly went sour between id, Bethesda, Mick Gordon, and Chad Mossholder. To let emotions get in the way, to decide for everyone who the moral victor is, accomplishes nothing except reinforcing gatekeeping. 

[Rampy470]

 

The plot thickens AGAIN. Over a year later. Somehow.

[BluePineapple72]

Here’s his full statement:

https://medium.com/@mickgordon/my-full-statement-regarding-doom-eternal-5f98266b27ce

[Rampy470]

Quote

In response, Marty explained he was “trying to protect all of us”, but now, because I had not fallen in line, I was on my own. “As soon as people come after us, we come after you”, he said.

 

Marty really out here taking a page out of the Scientology playbook, huh

[Man of Doom]

Well, holy shit.

 

In any case, I think this explains @Quasar’s mention that bad blood may have existed as far back as 2018.

 

And at this point, I don’t think I would blame him at all if he wants nothing to do with id anymore after all of this.

 

And forget about the OST altogether, I’m surprised the actual soundtrack is as cohesive as it is.

Edited November 9, 2022 by Man of Doom

[Mr. Freeze]

The part about starting while being already behind is brutal to think about. It's a wonder Mick wasn't just fumbling around in the dark writing random crap and trying to jam the square pegs into the round holes to make it fit a level. 

 

 

Edited November 9, 2022 by Mr. Freeze

[whatup876]

The bizarre part is there will still be people expecting the OST on Spotify or hoping that id and Mick simply get over it, when one of the things he mentions in his statement is living conditions with having to sleep in the studio and eat microwave food.

You can't just walk away from this.

Some people can get over certain things and move along but this isn't it.

 

Reminds me of watching a video about the Nancy Kerrigan-Tonya Harding scandal and someone in the comments is like "i hope they consider doing a fun little ice skating together to wrap this up".

It's like public interations between people are viewed as this "3 act story" fairy tail where they "suddenly team up in an arc" or get together and everything's suddenly fine.

Some bridges stay burned like that and that's it.

[Mr. Freeze]

If an issue has been brewing for years it's not getting quieted over a few beers or a single dinner. That's just absurd. 

[lazygecko]

This is a very, very long medium post detailing the whole ordeal of the entire project from start to finish from Mick's perspective. I'll try and "summarize" the key points (this will still be long as hell) that stick out:

 

Spoiler

 

It was clear to Mick from the start that the logistics were going to be too challenging to deliver on time (music for 2 levels per month in a basically finalized state, before the levels themselves or even the gameplay vision were even close to finished yet), and he proposed alternative frameworks early on to Marty Stratton who shot down his suggestions and wouldn't answer questions throughout correspondence.

 

Payment was very irregular (close to annual gaps) and he had to push to even get paid for stuff he had delivered but went unused in the final game (2018 Quakecon gameplay reveal music).

 

When the OST was publically announced as a pre-order bonus at E3 2019, it took Mick completely by surprise as apparently there hadn't even been any internal plans or discussions (much less a contract) about the soundtrack release yet.

 

By November 2019 he received his final payment, id ended communication and Mick considered his work done. The tension that had built up from mismanagement had soured his relationship with id at this point. There still wasn't a contract in place for the OST job.

 

After the game was released, Mick found out for himself that they had in fact used a lot of the music that was supposed to be demos/mockups and/or thrown away for rewrites, which amounts to additional used work he hadn't been compensated for. He has pressed the issue but still hasn't been paid for the additional material.

 

By January 2020, there still wasn't a contract for the OST despite reaching out to id numerous times and receiving no response. Mick contacted Bethesda directly about the situation, who responded immediately and they negotiated a deal together. A draft for a deal for a trimmed down scope of a 12 track album was worked out in order to meet the very tight deadline of April 16th, though the deadline was left flexible if delays were necessary. The contract was finalized and signed in March very close to the game's release, giving him a month to do the OST.

 

Contract stated that id had final say on the creative direction of the OST, but Mick continued to receive no communication/direction from them while working. By April 3 finished half of the OST entirely on his own intiative, upon which he got a mail from Marty Stratton saying the April 16 deadline was now non-negotiable due to consumer protection laws (an issue Mick had explicitly raised with Marty the year before when the OST announcement surprise happened and received no response).

 

Meanwhile, Mick finds out id had been working on their own OST internally using their ingame stems entirely without his knowledge. Mick offers to pool their resources together so they can get it done faster. When Mick looks over the 70 track id OST, he notices in the file metadata that this has been worked on as far back as 2019 even before the E3 soundtrack announcement (which contradicts Marty Stratton's public statement that id's OST was an emergency measure put together at the last minute). The plan was now that Mick would contribute his contractual 12 tracks to id's work.

 

Hours from the April 16 deadline having worked several days nonstop, Stratton reaches out again and says that he wants the 10 out of 12 tracks replaced. This was the first time id ever provided any input on the direction for Mick as stated they would in the contract. Mick pushes back and says this is impossible at this point. Stratton responds that they will take over from this point and finish everything internally. Mick gets his payment for the 12 tracks. He never got to hear the finished OST before public release, but knew that the internally done mixing and mastering was in dire straits from what he had heard earlier.

 

After the OST is released and the public notices the shoddy quality, Stratton contacts Mick concerned about the bad press and asks to issue a joint statement to calm people down. This leads to a Skype call where Stratton now lashes out at Mick and effectively blames him for the state and reception of the OST. Eventually Stratton calms down and Mick agrees that they make no further public comments until they work out a joint statement together, and Stratton says that a draft for a joint statement will be sent the next day. Mick never gets any draft, and then days later Stratton's open letter on Reddit is posted instead. Mick is now extremely distressed by the breach of trust and the ensuing damage to his reputation and career by Stratton's post. This also leads to the typical doxxing, harassment, death threats, etc.

 

At this point, Mick gets his lawyer involved. Zenimax legal offers a settlement deal where Mick gets payed what he is owed and also agrees to produce a fixed OST with the proper polish. But Mick insists that Stratton also takes down his Reddit post to mitigate the damage to his reputation, and this demand is non-negotiable. They instead threaten retaliatory legal action in response to this, and changes the settlement to a six figure sum and a gag order to never say anything about Doom Eternal again. Mick rejects the gag order and counter-offers with the initial settlement and promise to redo the OST.

 

The legal correspondence then turns into months of stalling from Stratton's lawyer until they finally reach back and demand the previous gag order again without the revised OST deal. Additional time passes until the Microsoft buyout happens, and in the wake of this Mick tries again with his counter offer. But the stalling continues. Seeing no other recourse, Mick gets in touch with the Doom subreddit moderator who agrees to take the post down. But after 12 hours the post is back up, the moderator has now blocked contact with Mick, and then Stratton's lawyers reaches out to him and says that as a result of this an amicable solution is no longer possible.

 

 

Edit: It looks like the old thread was resurrected while I was writing the summary. Merging the post into the old thread should be fine as well.

Edited November 9, 2022 by lazygecko

[princetontiger]

Never heard about this... I don't frequent reddit. It's interesting how Doomworld didn't get the original post from id.

 

Reddit appears to be a bit more mainstream to the 'modern' audience.

Edited November 9, 2022 by princetontiger

[whatup876]

Reddit may or may not belong in the same ecosystem as Twitter, Instagram, Youtube etc, whereas Doomworld is a fan owned fan site.

Though Reddit's layout structure still has its flaws and it's why people repeat content, whereas in a forum people can keep things organized and are encouraged to see older posts or avoid as much repetition as possible. (hence terms like "necrobumping" or shit like that)

It's more like a social media site posing as a forum.

[Redneckerz]

In both a blessing and a curse its both good and sad to know that Marty and Mick carry on a tradition that is present with Doom - That being drama.

 

In other respects, these things should be discussed privately and not published - at length - to the public. A shortened explanation would be better.

[TakenStew22]

I never expected or wanted drama regarding Doom, but here we are.

I'm too lazy to read the whole thing, but if Mick was really fucked over regarding the OST then I truly feel sad for him, and feel angry towards Marty if he truly did spread misinformation. Just wish we'll somehow have a happy ending for this arc.

 

Edited November 9, 2022 by TakenStew22