Mick Gordon unlikely to work on another Doom game after Eternal’s OST release

[Komenja]

15 hours ago, Mr. Freeze said:

Will this impact your decision to purchase the next Doom? 

I hate to say it, but yeah. I was already a bit wary of the next id game potentially taking the things I didn't like about Eternal (more specifically it's DLCs) and continuing to run even further with it. This, though...

I'm not sure how to put it into words, but I've always greatly admired id Software for somehow, even after numerous key people leaving over the years and getting bought out by Bethesda, managing to consistently put out great games, always being relatively friendly and open with the community, and seeming like a cool place to work at. I've had this opinion about other developers over the years, too, Blizzard in particular. But unlike the rest of them, who gradually morphed into something horrible and unrecognizable, id remained intact. Even when more and more of the old guard left, the newcomers held up the standard.

It's extremely disheartening to hear that not only was Mick treated this way, but that no one at the office was willing to speak up for him for fear of punishment from above. That suggests a hostile work environment, and I'm worried it's going to get worse - if it hasn't already, considering all this happened years ago. What the hell happened to Marty? Was he always like this? I'll admit I don't know much about him as a person, but in interviews and appearances he never came across like the kind of guy who'd act this way, at least to me.

Besides, I don't need to rely on id for more Doom or Quake stuff, anyway. This community and many others continues to pump out quality content for the classic games, and there's already so much stuff that, unless I get stranded on an island with only a banana-powered coconut computer and the entire idgames archive, I'll most likely never be able to play all of it in my lifetime. Plus I still need to get off my lazy ass and learn how to make my own maps at some point.

[LadyMistDragon]

1 hour ago, Komenja said:

It's extremely disheartening to hear that not only was Mick treated this way, but that no one at the office was willing to speak up for him for fear of punishment from above. That suggests a hostile work environment, and I'm worried it's going to get worse - if it hasn't already, considering all this happened years ago. What the hell happened to Marty? Was he always like this? I'll admit I don't know much about him as a person, but in interviews and appearances he never came across like the kind of guy who'd act this way, at least to me.

 

 

 

To play devil's advocate for a second....the overall tone of the industry is very much "get game out by X date" sort of thing. If you try to be humanitarian in any way, you'll probably find yourself shown the door with a game as expensive at this. Marty may not have made all of his baffling and terrible decisions because of crunch time, but it's safe to say that having the shareholder reaper hanging over your head can have a psychological effect on other things which are seemingly unrelated. He probably though there'd be no problem with getting Mick to score another game, but clearly, things were far more complicated than he either anticipated or wanted to handle at the time (' a distraction?? ' Sir, you clearly have never played chess, would you like to be educated). Not even getting into people who might have resented Mick, but that's only a guess after all.

 

That's certainly not meant to excuse Stratton's conduct here, not by any means. But sometimes, after doing tons of stupid shit and finally having it some of it thrown back, the only thing one can think to do is just cover-up and double-down. I've seen it happen in at the university I attended regarding a budget issue, and unfortunately, people can't be bothered to put their big-boy pants on when the pressure's turned up.

[whatup876]

I will say something about the potential next Doom game (beside the fact that it should take longer to come out, because Doom shouldn't have closer release dates like Pokemon): if they get a new composer/musical direction, it might as well be another reboot.

New gameplay, new story and lore, new aesthetic, new engine etc to suit the new music.

Mostly because Doom has a series already "changed skins", so inconsistency is not new to Doom.

 

Mick Gordon's music is probably even more tied to the new games than Bobby's tracks were to classic Doom and it's not just praise from fans or even memes.

The songs were made with gameplay in mind as specific tracks are meant to be adjusted to situations.

On one hand you're listening to an ambient track, on another you're in the arena and have what people call "your own boss battle theme".

TAG still had different composers despite being in the "Slayer" part of the series but still.

 

Honestly, "starting over again" for a Doom 6 could even include the studio itself lol.

At least after Hugo Martin and others thing they've done enough and pass the torch to a new crew of id Software devs, but it'd also have to be new blood that learns the right lessons from the past.

Including "don't screw over people".

 

Some people will boycott id and not give them money, which can't be bad for those who are aware of the amount of content that the fanbase has been producing for years.

Like holy shit, there's so much to brag about Doom in terms of fan content.

But i also feel like depending on how id lasts as a studio, a part of me hopes that at some point, they become different enough that these problems do not repeat.

 

In a way, how the games industry treats music composers reminds me of similar stories regarding voice actors.

Basically, if you're not in the programming/direction/art/testing/whatever parts of development, you're not essential to the team.

Also, i remember Trent Reznor originally doing sound design for D3 but his stuff went unused and D3 in itself was a certain change to id as a studio. (i also recall Trent having some rough stuff in early 2000's, though they weren't D3 related)

[Mr. Freeze]

It's been said before, but the situation with Mick and Reznor beforehand makes me think there was a deliberate effort to squash individual contributors' contributions so that they don't overshadow the rest of the dev team and by extension upper management. Like an opening band's signal being lowered so they don't show up the main act. 

 

 

[TakenStew22]

3 hours ago, scalliano said:

Not everyone is on social media (hi :D) and review-brigading has proven itself in the past to be an effective means of at least informing potential buyers that something is wrong and doing so in a short timeframe. It immediately conveys that fans are pissed off about something being amiss either in the game or adjacent to the game.

 

Also, to a previous point - the term "hate-campaign" gets thrown around way too freely these days. Calling a corporation or even an individual out on their bullshit is not a hate campaign. When you get into the arena of death threats or doxxing people, then it's a problem.

 

As far as boycotts go, we'll see. A lot can happen in however many years it may be until id's next title. Emotions are understandably running high right now with the artist who is arguably the life and soul of nuskool Doom having been allegedly fucked over in such an egregious manner, but I for one am interested in seeing how id responds and going from there.

 

As of now, I'm very much on team Gordon - he has clearly been working on this response for a while and made sure to bring receipts.

My main problem is people thinking everyone has to join in and boycott these games and anyone who buys them is an idiot or shill or something. I'm not saying everyone is saying this for Doom rn but many people have said something similar for games/companies that have bad business practices or management. I just want to play games bro, I ain't gonna choose a side and go to war (unless it's Activision, but I still buy some of their games if they look fun to me).

Edited November 10, 2022 by TakenStew22

[scalliano]

11 minutes ago, TakenStew22 said:

My main problem is people thinking everyone has to join in and boycott these games and anyone who buys them is an idiot or shill or something. I just want to play games bro...

Those people are fanboys. No one with any sense is saying that (certainly no one here, anyway). I'm currently awaiting the LRG Switch copy of Eternal - I have no intention of cancelling, and I'll play the shit out of it when it arrives. You do you, just take it as a "buyer beware".

 

Besides, organized boycotts pretty much NEVER work. *cough*MW2*cough*

 

EDIT: Pretty good breakdown of Mick's statement here:

 

Edited November 10, 2022 by scalliano

[tatsu91]

20 hours ago, Mr. Freeze said:

Will this impact your decision to purchase the next Doom? 

 Definitely i will not pay a cent for it if Marty is still attached as what he did was beyond unconscionable mick was treated like a slave laborer

[Herr Dethnout]

21 hours ago, Mr. Freeze said:

Will this impact your decision to purchase the next Doom? 

No. id is not only Stratton, there's a lot of talented people behind the games and should be rewarded for his job as well.

Taking something that Mick said in his statement:



 

Spoiler

Anyway, I can't play the nuDooms because I don't have a powerful pc to play it lol

 

[chemo]

and people are still going to use this debacle as an excuse to review-bomb eternal or just shit on it in general lol

Edited November 11, 2022 by chemo

[Herr Dethnout]

Just now, chemo said:

and people are still going to use this debacle as an excuse to review-bomb and shit on eternal in general lol

My man Mick Gordon doing the exact opposite of what Hellena Taylor do. RESPECT+

 

Spoiler

On a side note, I realized that Chad Mossholder uses REAPER. REAPER used in AAA games!!!!! :O

 

[Mr. Freeze]

Never used Reaper. Is it bad?

 

[indigotyrian]

1 hour ago, chemo said:

and people are still going to use this debacle as an excuse to review-bomb eternal or just shit on it in general lol

 

I don't really care. Review-bombing, so long as it doesn't include violent or hate speech, is good and cool. Gordon's distancing himself from the actions of others in order to avoid culpability, which is smart, but at the end of the day id Software should feel repercussions for their behavior.

 

The dirty secret here is that "decorum" and "politeness" are lies invented to perpetuate the status quo. Just sharing his statement doesn't really do anything -- id Software can just ignore it and Marty can just go radio silent until the news media picks up another story. Continuing to do damage to their games' reps, making a mess of shit, and just generally being obnoxious at id Software (again, without dipping into violent speech) is how you make it impossible to ignore, and thus have something actually get done. Calm doesn't get you a damn thing.

 

As for "the team's work", those devs already got paid lol

Edited November 11, 2022 by segfault

[Herr Dethnout]

40 minutes ago, Mr. Freeze said:

Never used Reaper. Is it bad?

 

Nope is a great DAW, just strange to see it being used in AAA projects, I was expecting, FL Studio, Logic Pro X, Cubase, or even Pro Tools lol

[chemo]

29 minutes ago, segfault said:

Gordon's distancing himself from the actions of others in order to avoid culpability, which is smart, but at the end of the day id Software should feel repercussions for their behavior.

Or maybe, just maybe, this isn't actually something Mick wants and he put out this tweet because he doesn't want people getting the idea that id Software/Bethesda as a whole is to blame and that they deserve the shit being flung at them.

 

That, and he probably dislikes the idea of people using him as an excuse to validate their own biases. Given your prior history in this thread, you're clearly one of such individuals.

Edited November 11, 2022 by chemo

[Herr Dethnout]

27 minutes ago, segfault said:

Review-bombing, so long as it doesn't include violent or hate speech, is good and cool.

Theres better ways to handle this in a possitive way, like... idk... Sharing his posts, so it can reach to the key people and making finally at change?

You know, now that Microsoft is the owner of Bethesda (and by that, owners of iD Software too), they "probably" will not accept that kind of bad fame.

Review-bombing is like the virtual equivalent to making a riot. Not only doesn't help but also make the things worse.

[indigotyrian]

1 hour ago, chemo said:

Or maybe, just maybe, this isn't actually something Mick wants and he put out this tweet because he doesn't want people getting the idea that id Software/Bethesda as a whole is to blame and that they deserve the shit being flung at them.

 

That, and he probably dislikes the idea of people using him as an excuse to validate their own biases. Given your prior history in this thread, you're clearly one of such individuals.

 

I dunno I think the shithead executives at id/Bethesda who clearly knew what Stratton was doing (they absolutely had to clear that six-figure hush money offer after all) should deserve some measure of pushback for what they did. It's clear from his post that this is a systemic issue; how many employees and contractors got fucked over by Marty that we don't know about? How many executives have done similar bullshit to victims who just don't have the reach or means to make a statement like Gordon did and have it get viral?

 

Trying to tell people how they should and shouldn't react to bad behavior done by corporate executives is really fucking weird. Last I checked a video game going into "Mixed" or "Mostly Negative" territory on Steam, particularly when said game released two years ago, has the cumulative effect of approximately jack shit on the individuals who worked on that game. The workers got paid, they've moved on and are probably neck deep in other projects as we speak. Bethesda accountants aren't reaching into their bank accounts and scraping out company bonuses because the needle on Steam's review aggregate moved down several ticks. At this point all you're really doing is crying about the sanctity of video game reviews. Oh no, won't somebody please think of the Doom Eternal Steam review score?!?!

 

57 minutes ago, Herr Dethnout said:

Theres better ways to handle this in a possitive way, like... idk... Sharing his posts, so it can reach to the key people and making finally at change?

You know, now that Microsoft is the owner of Bethesda (and by that, owners of iD Software too), they "probably" will not accept that kind of bad fame.

Review-bombing is like the virtual equivalent to making a riot. Not only doesn't help but also make the things worse.

 

I don't really know how to tell you this but everybody at the highest echelons knew about this happening as it was happening. Approving a six-figure hush money deal is the kind of shit you run by the C-Suite before presenting it to the other party. Asking politely for justice to be done never works out.

Edited November 11, 2022 by segfault

[chemo]

21 minutes ago, segfault said:

I dunno I think the shithead executives at id/Bethesda who clearly knew what Stratton was doing (they absolutely had to clear that six-figure hush money offer after all) should deserve some measure of pushback for what they did. It's clear from his post that this is a systemic issue; how many employees and contractors got fucked over by Marty that we don't know about? How many executives have done similar bullshit to victims who just don't have the reach or means to make a statement like Gordon did and have it get viral? 

This is a quote he put in his "points of note" nearly right at the beginning of his full statement:

 

Quote

This statement does not reflect the overwhelmingly positive, successful relationships I’ve had with many people and studios under the Zenimax umbrella. The games I worked on, and the people behind them, remain dear to my heart.

 

He would also claim that his defense exists because of people making unsubstantiated accusations against him and the mob mentality driving it. Call me crazy but aren't you engaging in the exact behavior that Mick is against?

Edited November 11, 2022 by chemo

[indigotyrian]

1 minute ago, chemo said:

This is a quote he put in his "points of note" nearly right at the beginning of his full statement:

 

 

He would also claim that his defense exists because of people making unsubstantiated accusations against him. Call me crazy but aren't you engaging in the exact behavior that Mick is against?

 

I dunno it sounds like he's talking about the people who actually worked on the video games and not the executives who collect all the money, crack the whips, withhold pay, and enforce crunch. I think this is pretty obvious when you're not looking to pillory somebody for committing the high, most heinous sin of thinking it's okay to express one's disgust at a video game studio on the computer.

[chemo]

42 minutes ago, segfault said:

 

I dunno it sounds like he's talking about the people who actually worked on the video games and not the executives who collect all the money, crack the whips, withhold pay, and enforce crunch. I think this is pretty obvious when you're not looking to pillory somebody for committing the high, most heinous sin of thinking it's okay to express one's disgust at a video game studio on the computer. 

Mick has made it abundantly clear that his statement is specifically about Marty and his personal experiences with him, rather than rest of the executives working at Zenimax/id Software. Where does he call out anybody else in such a position? You're just making negative assumptions, which, to reiterate, is a mentality that Mick himself has disowned.

 

Are there other asshats within id Software and/or Bethesda? Probably, but as it is such speculation or info is completely irrelevant to the topic at hand.

 

And like, his stance against review-bombing alone shows that he doesn't want this hurting the rest of the company, how is this difficult to understand?

Edited November 11, 2022 by chemo

[Herr Dethnout]

41 minutes ago, segfault said:

I don't really know how to tell you this but everybody at the highest echelons knew about this happening as it was happening. Approving a six-figure hush money deal is the kind of shit you run by the C-Suite before presenting it to the other party.

Is very clear that the six-figure hush was made before the aquisition, and know that everything about the Eternal OST is now public, theres a probably that they (Microsoft) will do something in order avoid a bad reputation.
 

48 minutes ago, segfault said:

Asking politely for justice to be done never works out.

You're right. And that the reason why we are in this situation now, Mick tried to get justice privately, but the refuse of Stratton led him to make this all public in order to demand justice, but that doesn't mean taking actions that are self-defeating his purpose. Giving review-bombings or hate mail doesn't actually works (Remember The Last of Us 2, or Blizzard remakes?), bad reviews will not affect a game that was released 2 years ago and had a lot of possitive reviews and sell very well before that. It has more value trying to share his posts and spread the word to reach the people who can actually can make a change.

[indigotyrian]

22 minutes ago, chemo said:

And like, his stance against review-bombing alone shows that he doesn't want this hurting the rest of the company, how is this difficult to understand?

 

Because you've spent the past several hours shaming and attacking me and other people for thinking this shit is gross and calling it out on a review, and I'm really not happy at all with the way you and Herr Dethnout are behaving toward me. I refuse to be a target like this. Cut it out.

Edited November 11, 2022 by segfault

[chemo]

11 minutes ago, segfault said:

 

Because you've spent the past several hours shaming and attacking me and other people for thinking this shit is gross and calling it out on a review, and I'm really not happy at all with the way you and Herr Dethnout are behaving toward me. Cut it out. 

You're blatantly ignoring Mick's intent. Even if you ignore my personal stances on review-bombing, do you not see what's wrong here?

 

Also:

 

Quote

you've spent the past several hours shaming and attacking me and other people for thinking this shit is gross

 

Are you saying that I was defending Marty's behavior? Where the hell did I do that?

Edited November 11, 2022 by chemo

[indigotyrian]

Leave me alone.

[Ozcar]

In fact people review bombing on doom eternal is hilarious, I agree marty Fucked up and He should be quit, And mick gordon did good job statement, But in fact people review bombing on doom eternal is fucking stupid, In fact cyberpunk 2077 (which is still awful game) got higher score than doom eternal in steam, no wonder people say gamer are as joke.

I feel bad for mick gordon.

Edited November 11, 2022 by Ozcar

[LuciferSam86]

On 11/10/2022 at 4:51 AM, Mr. Freeze said:

Will this impact your decision to purchase the next Doom? 

Not at all. id is not Stratton but a team of very talented people, so I don't have reasons to vandalizing the Stratton page on doomwiki like some people did, or write a bad review on doom Eternal on steam, or don't buy next id software games.  I'm sure Bethesda / Zenimax will solve the serious problem Stratton did . 

Edited November 11, 2022 by LuciferSam86

[Ozcar]

Man but seriously they did mick gordon dirty, Marty seriously should be fired.

 

I dont know what did worse?

Marty or tim willits

[Herr Dethnout]

3 minutes ago, LuciferSam86 said:

Not at all. id is not Stratton but a team of very talented people, so I don't have reasons to vandalizing the Stratton page on doomwiki like some people did, or write a bad review on doom Eternal on steam, or don't buy next id software games.  I'm sure Bethesda / Zenimax will solve the serious problem did Stratton. 

I didn't realized that Stratton page on DoomWiki was vandalized.

But after looking the history... well... lol
 

Spoiler

 

[Redneckerz]

1 hour ago, Ozcar said:

Man but seriously they did mick gordon dirty, Marty seriously should be fired.

Based on what is written there certainly is a cause for that.

But like i said before, i find it strange that Marty Stratton of all people, someone who worked happily with Gordon on Doom 2016 and no issue existed, would go on Reddit, re-activate his account, and then write what he has written.

 

It seems completely the opposite of what Marty would do, and i feel this deserves more research. Why would Marty throw his public image across the river and turn heel in Randy Pitchford style?

 

[Stoltzmann]

On 11/10/2022 at 3:07 AM, Quasar said:

 he was becoming dangerous to the franchise in that it might become impossible to continue it without him, and that's a liability that AAA modern publishers don't tolerate

 

On one hand that makes sense. On the other hand why were they using Hugo as their best PR material then? Countless amounts of interviews, dozens of livestreams, interacting with community, people love this chubby dad of modern dooms. Imagine the outrage if Hugo was fired, it would be much greater than the one after ending partnership with Mick.

[Murdoch]

2 hours ago, Redneckerz said:

Based on what is written there certainly is a cause for that.

But like i said before, i find it strange that Marty Stratton of all people, someone who worked happily with Gordon on Doom 2016 and no issue existed, would go on Reddit, re-activate his account, and then write what he has written.

 

It seems completely the opposite of what Marty would do, and i feel this deserves more research. Why would Marty throw his public image across the river and turn heel in Randy Pitchford style?

 

It does seem very out of character. Either he's a real Jekyl and Hyde, or there's more to this story. Not saying I doubt the basic essence of what Mick is saying, but in situations like this people invariably twist things to make themselves look better, even if they don't really do so intentionally. So I personally am reserving judgement. There's 3 sides to every story as the old saying goes - yours, mine and the truth.

 

On 11/10/2022 at 7:21 AM, Quasar said:

Which is fraudulent and violates the terms of the contract. I'm not sure why he didn't just take them to court when he has all of this evidence in perfect order. Guess he's afraid of further scaring off potential clients - "don't get that guy, he'll sue you - even when you totally deserve it."

 

By going public as he has, he has already arguably tied the knot on that noose anyway. Assuming what he is saying is largely correct, I have sympathy for him, but really this should have been handled behind closed doors with lawyers. If the evidence is as good as he says, it's a pretty slam dunk case. Going public like this is inevitably going to ignite a firestorm and likely generate a lot of hate towards id people who have nothing to do with this part of the business. It is just the way the Internet acts.

 

On 11/10/2022 at 4:51 PM, Mr. Freeze said:

Will this impact your decision to purchase the next Doom? 

 

No. An entire company should not be punished for the actions of a handful of individuals.

 

20 hours ago, Mr. Freeze said:

 

Why are you reading /r/doom under any circumstance 

 

Yeah that way lies madness.

 

Edited November 11, 2022 by Murdoch