Mick Gordon unlikely to work on another Doom game after Eternal’s OST release

[Doomkid]

You know, if the "review bombing hate campaign" was just a bunch of angry fans who had no other meaningful outlet to express their disapproval over a talented member of the Doom crew getting shafted so fucking hard, it'd be understandable. But this goes BEYOND that...

 

...wait, you mean it doesn't go beyond that? You mean this reaction harms abso-fucking-lutely no-one other than maybe scaring some shareholders? Meh, that doesn't align with my rampant Doom Eternal & Capitalism Crunch famboyism so poo on you.

[Cacodemon345]

2 hours ago, Murdoch said:

No. An entire company should not be punished for the actions of a handful of individuals.

Given Marty is the game director and executive producer of id Software, yes, it will impact my decision to purchase the next Doom should he be still there in his positions in some way or form.

[shadowrider78]

god I have not been on this site for so long and this really tears me up to see an outstanding company like ID end up like this because of one man.

[Redneckerz]

9 minutes ago, Cacodemon345 said:

Given Marty is the game director and executive producer of id Software, yes, it will impact my decision to purchase the next Doom should he be still there in his positions in some way or form.

But is what is said the truth? I find Marty's side very unMarty the way things went. It calls for speculation. Did anyone else have access to that Reddit account (Chad?) 

 

We don't know these things, so i understand that your conclusion is that you let it impact your decisionmaking. You do you in that regard and that's fine.

 

But it makes practically no sense for Marty to behave this way, unless, as @Murdoch aptly described it, there is a Jeckyll & Hyde situation going on.

 

I'd love to hear a Bethesda higher up share their points on this. They are, in this discussion, the third party which Mick discussed in his rebuttal.

 

Again i should postulate i'd preferred to see these questions solved privately.

 

Other than that, we the public have less a say in this because everything is under NDA/contract/whatever.

[chemo]

There's this one recent Twitter thread from a former id Software employee, and when it comes to his own experiences with Marty he has nothing but positive things to say:

Spoiler

Now, if Cantero is being truthful, does this remove Marty of all possible guilt? Absolutely not, but I think it goes to show that there still might be more crucial info and context that we don't know of.

Edited November 11, 2022 by chemo

[Caffeine Freak]

Note: the following post isn't meant to be confrontational or to allude to any specific person here. I've seen these thoughts iterated by multiple people.

 

I really don't get this mentality I'm seeing of 'well, the countless people who worked on Eternal already got paid, so review-bombing is okay'. People pour their blood, sweat and tears into games for much more reason than to simply earn a paycheck, and I would bet money it doesn't feel good as a dev to have their game downvoted a shitton by angry people. Creative types don't tend to look at the fruits of their labor as 'meh, I already got paid for it, who cares if people shit all over it now?'

 

Really, when you look at the big picture, review-bombing a 2+ year-old game at this point is not going to accomplish anything on the shareholder/corporate exec side that the social media firestorm + numerous articles by major online outlets isn't. I'd respect the argument for review-bombing Eternal a lot more if people could just admit that all it really accomplishes is the temporary dopamine spike, as opposed to fighting the greedy corporate bigwigs.

Edited November 11, 2022 by Caffeine Freak

[shadowrider78]

19 minutes ago, chemo said:

There's this one recent Twitter thread from a former id Software employee, and when it comes to his own experiences with Marty he has nothing but positive things to say:

  Reveal hidden contents

Now, if Cantero is being truthful, does this remove Marty of all possible guilt? Absolutely not, but I think it goes to show that there still might be more crucial info and context that we don't know of.

well this is getting really interesting now

[scalliano]

30 minutes ago, Caffeine Freak said:

Note: the following post isn't meant to be confrontational or to allude to any specific person here. I've seen these thoughts iterated by multiple people.

 

I really don't get this mentality I'm seeing of 'well, the countless people who worked on Eternal already got paid, so review-bombing is okay'. People pour their blood, sweat and tears into games for much more reason than to simply earn a paycheck, and I would bet money it doesn't feel good as a dev to have their game downvoted a shitton by angry people. Creative types don't tend to look at the fruits of their labor as 'meh, I already got paid for it, who cares if people shit all over it now?'

 

Really, when you look at the big picture, review-bombing a 2+ year-old game at this point is not going to accomplish anything on the shareholder/corporate exec side that the social media firestorm + numerous articles by major online outlets isn't. I'd respect the argument for review-bombing Eternal a lot more if people could just admit that all it really accomplishes is the temporary dopamine spike, as opposed to fighting the greedy corporate bigwigs.

While I agree that brigading Eternal on Steam probably won't achieve much in the case of a creator/publisher dispute, that is not to say such tactics haven't worked in the past when companies have been arsehats. It is more or less the sole reason that OpenIV still exists.

[Herr Dethnout]

6 hours ago, Redneckerz said:

Based on what is written there certainly is a cause for that.

But like i said before, i find it strange that Marty Stratton of all people, someone who worked happily with Gordon on Doom 2016 and no issue existed, would go on Reddit, re-activate his account, and then write what he has written.

 

It seems completely the opposite of what Marty would do, and i feel this deserves more research. Why would Marty throw his public image across the river and turn heel in Randy Pitchford style?

 

You will surprised how much people can change when they got a power possition (He is the Studio Director since 2019), but I wouldn't say that Marty is the only responsible for this trainwreck (Let's keep in mind that Doom Eternal's development was a trainwreck too)

 

 

4 hours ago, Murdoch said:

By going public as he has, he has already arguably tied the knot on that noose anyway. Assuming what he is saying is largely correct, I have sympathy for him, but really this should have been handled behind closed doors with lawyers. If the evidence is as good as he says, it's a pretty slam dunk case. Going public like this is inevitably going to ignite a firestorm and likely generate a lot of hate towards id people who have nothing to do with this part of the business. It is just the way the Internet acts.

For what he said in his statement, it seems that making everything public was his last resort since he tried many ways to contact id, Bethesda and Zenimax in private.

I agree with both in being skeptical about this (although I'm towards to be on Mick side because his statement is extremely detailed and actually has sense). Welp, theres nothing be can do at this moment than wait for a resolution. :/


On a side note, theres a discussion on Marty's wikipedia page to delete it. lol
 

Spoiler

 

[Kyka]

First off, I have just read Mick's statement, in full. And I am grieved by what I read. My respect and condolences to Mick and his family. I have seen this happen too many times in the music industry, and have been through major contractual stuff twice before personally.

 

So; having been in the music industry, and having had to deal with contractual stuff before, here are my thoughts.

 

Marty I don't think is a bad guy, but he certainly created a very bad situation. Here is how it breaks down, in my opinion.

-A monumental lack of understanding of the creative process and creative people, which always leads to poor communication and zero mutual understanding.

-A profound desire to protect the interests of his 'tribe' (in this case his co workers and subordinates at id software.)

-A profound desire to protect id's reputation from any perceived threat and approaching this goal from a business/corporate perspective rather than a gaming/creative one.

 

Marty is a business guy through and through. It requires immense humility and transparency to be an accountant/lawyer/business guy while understanding and facilitating the needs of creative people. I don't think Marty outright lied, (though this is pure speculation.) I think he simply reacted to protect the areas that he saw as his responsibility: id software and their reputation - as indeed he should - without taking the time to really listen and understand Mick's position. When he saw Mick's reluctance to fall in line with management's deadlines and objectives (as ludicrous as they were,) he perceived Mick as difficult and not a 'team player'. Marty then reacted increasingly poorly to the situation as it got more out of control. Probably Marty was under immense pressure also, which is no excuse, but also makes things much worse. I personally feel that Marty was made to understand that "you had better fix this or it's your head." You better believe that Bethesda will protect its reputation far more than it will protect Marty, and I am sure deep down he knows it. So now it turns into an ugly downward spiral. Marty has a career to lose, and no doubt he thinks this is because of Mick, who is now seen as difficult. And as a contracted 'outsider' rather than being in the Bethesda 'fold' he is disposable anyway. Except for the fact that Mick is a public figure, so not as disposable as perhaps id would like. Now get lawyers and other 'attack dogs' involved, and things go from worse to much, much worse. I am sure that Marty understands that when lawyers get involved, he is just as much at risk as Mick is. Lawyers protect whoever is paying them. Consequently, Marty is only safe as long as protecting him is in alignment with protecting id and Bethesda. With a career on the line, and a long public letter than cannot be retracted, Marty was doubtless fearful for his position, and also for id's reputation.

 

Because we all know that corporate hierarchies are just as likely to turn on their own as they are to turn on 'outsiders'.

 

But in the end, it is my experience that things like this are virtually always the fault of management. (The exception to this is when people do no work, and management has to deal with the fact that their objectives are not met because of poor employee performance, but this is rare in professional industries.) Marty, at best, failed to understand what was being asked of Mick was virtually impossible, and reacted increasingly ruthlessly to protect his own interests when Mick was unable to deliver according to a difficult and changing set of expectations. Mix serious money issues into this, as well as lawyers, high paid executives, and a billion people on the internet with their often vicious opinions, and you have a real fustercluck on your hands.

 

Edited November 12, 2022 by Kyka
Slight rewording to clarify a couple of points

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

Not a fan of Mick's music at all, but I read enough to decide that he probably got shafted. Not going to waste my time looking at r/doom, Steam reviews, Tweets, and the other generic components of the Internet Drama Bomb 9000. I think review bombing is pretty dumb, but the review section of Steam is a worthless cesspool of troglodytes anyway, so it hardly matters.

Edited November 11, 2022 by TheMagicMushroomMan

[TakenStew22]

2 minutes ago, TheMagicMushroomMan said:

Not a fan of Mick's music at all, but I read enough to decide that he probably got shafted. Not going to waste my time looking at r/doom, Steam reviews, Tweets, and the other generic components of the Internet Review Bomb 9000. I think review bombing is pretty dumb, but the review section of Steam is a worthless cesspool of troglodytes anyway, so it hardly matters.

The Steam community is where all common sense and reason go to die. I'm so happy I left it.

[Caffeine Freak]

Made the mistake of reading the replies to Cantero's Tweet thread above. I got what I deserved. Twitter is the app equivalent of a shrieking indignant beast from hell, cramming fistfulls of Psilocybin mushrooms into it's maw whilst choking on its own bile. 

Edited November 11, 2022 by Caffeine Freak

[Rad_Cacodemon]

a company abusing its contractors, imagine my shock

[Ozcar]

1 hour ago, TakenStew22 said:

The Steam community is where all common sense and reason go to die. I'm so happy I left it.

Steam community is reddit 2.0 change in my mind.

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

25 minutes ago, Caffeine Freak said:

Made the mistake of reading the replies to Cantero's Tweet thread above. I got what I deserved. Twitter is the app equivalent of a shrieking indignant beast from hell, cramming fistfulls of Psilocybin mushrooms into it's maw whilst choking on its own bile. 

I'm proud to admit that I cram fistfulls of Psilocybin mushrooms into my maw whilst choking on my own bile all the time, and I don't even know how to use Twitter. Why people engage with that kind of garbage all the time is beyond me. Social media in general consists mainly of anti-social people who are so insecure that they seek the validation of internet strangers over every single opinion they have. It's nothing but a cheap dopamine hit for people who like to convince themselves that they're actually making a difference in the world by having e-tantrums within a shielded echo chamber.

[Ozcar]

Twitter is the worst of social media ever

Twitter is basically "How to made you angry" app, They bitching every time and cant chill the fuck down, And not to mention twitter is filled with pedophile, they draw fictional cp, Then they say "is just fictional". "age is just number", And also they groomer at little kids. 

Also reddit and steam community is same shit as this.

Edited November 12, 2022 by Ozcar

[whatup876]

Twitter sucks more for being the most used website, when the internet used to consist of way more websites and things were better for being a bit more seperate.

Sites had different purposes and it's easier to form a community in that regard or at least avoid "crowded bus" moments.

The website is also moderated by AI algorithms and people literally censor themselves over words like "kill".

If you wanna know why people are too sensitive (besides the Tumblr exodus), it's for the same reasons Youtubers that make videos about real life crime investigations and mysteries still bleep out certain words due to Youtube's awkward monetization system and, again, algorithms.

Meanwhile, the terrorist organization ISIS was once allowed in the platform until somebody hacked their account with porn in it.

 

Plus it's layout is limited and partially because of modern phones, which sadly influenced modern website design and it's why Flash died.

It's amazing that artists even bother with it, because there's no actual galleries or organization in that layout at all and if you post shit like food pictures, memes, political rants, etc it only makes it worse to see through your work.

Plus the site screws up with images resolutions and has its own video/gif players that hinders quality. also the "crowded buys" aspect means you either have people complaining about your art (even if it's vanilla tier stuff) or people replying with memes.

If Elon Musk does kill Twitter, that's unironically one of the few good things he'd ever done. just pray the worst people on the site thing they really have to "touch grass" while the better people use the better websites and maybe the internet heals by going back to that "only nerds use it" way.

 

There's also that arguement about "people need to monitor their experiences online and learn to use the app, because its nobody else's responsibility" but i think Twitter likes to mess with people's settings, such as switching to see latest tweets instead of top tweets.

I think i recall Twitter unironically admitting they didn't made CP illegal on the site's ToS... wasn't there a real country that once admitted they didn't made beastiallity a crime in their law or something?

 

Fun fact: some Doom fans on Twitter once tried to have their own mapping project and it went nowhere.

From what i gather, i assume it failed because:

* most people involved never had a background in making Doom wads.

* there was no drive or motivation, let alone organization or anyone monitering the project.

* they were also planning on using UDMF, which doesn't seem ideal for complete newbies.

[Herr Dethnout]

1 hour ago, Caffeine Freak said:

Made the mistake of reading the replies to Cantero's Tweet thread above. I got what I deserved. Twitter is the app equivalent of a shrieking indignant beast from hell, cramming fistfulls of Psilocybin mushrooms into it's maw whilst choking on its own bile. 

Chris: Welp, I wan't to share my experience at id and with Marty, but I'm clear that Mick has valid points and respect him.

Twitter: OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH, DON'T YOU DARE!!!!!!!!1111 Let's go for it guys!

[Quasar]

Quote

cp

Quote

groomer

Quote

too sensitive

Can we chill with this increasingly off-topic and weird dogwhistling shit?

[Eurisko]

Bethesda fires back!!!

This could get ugly. 

 

Edited November 16, 2022 by Eurisko

[Devalaous]

Both sides going to double down till the end, such is life.

[Zemini]

1.  Artists are drama queens.

2.  Corporate is full of cheap assholes

3.  Nobody likes to take blame

4.  There are always two sides, and most of the time the truth is in the middle.

 

I just hope this doesn't delay the next game in anyway.

 

 

Edited November 16, 2022 by Zemini

[Murdoch]

14 minutes ago, Zemini said:

4.  There are always two sides, and most of the time the truth is in the middle.

 

100% this. This is why I am not impressed Mick posted what he did. However much you have been wronged, he put people who had nothing to do with it in the firing line. Now the odds of any one of these Internet idiots actually following through on any of their death threats is pretty much zero, but it's still seriously unpleasant and stressful to have to hear and deal with. It doesn't matter he said "hey guys please don't attack anyone". Telling an Internet Mob not to Internet Mob is like saying "Hey water, please stop being wet".

Edited November 16, 2022 by Murdoch

[Gez]

To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand Mick and Marty. The humor is extremely subtle, and without a solid grasp of corporate legalese most of the jokes will go over a typical viewer's head.

[Ragu]

If it's misrepresentation, Bethesda should know to deal with that in court. If it's for exoneration in the court of public opinion, they need to present evidence that counters Mick's claims. I don't know why they chose to post this as it serves no purpose except to inflame the situation further, but it feels very characteristic of someone who would shoot their mouth off on Reddit against a contractor. Maybe it's not just Marty, maybe that's just the company culture.

[Herr Dethnout]

32 minutes ago, Gez said:

To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand Mick and Marty. The humor is extremely subtle, and without a solid grasp of corporate legalese most of the jokes will go over a typical viewer's head.

Men I hope that season 4 will be better than 3.

[Doomkid]

Marty: Smears the fuck out of Mick and trashes his working reputation

 

Mick: Smears Marty back and also trashes his working reputation (as most people would)

 

Marty:

[Redneckerz]

3 hours ago, Eurisko said:

Bethesda fires back!!!

This could get ugly. 

 

• Ofcourse it is one-sided: It is Mick's side of things set with his fact finding.
• I'd wager the appropiate venue is behind closed borders. Perhaps as it should.
• The third alinea in my eyes isn't to be blamed to Mick (This subtly implies that it does) but i can understand that despite all the preliminary warnings Mick threw out, he could know that people on the internet would cue up the threats. It is easy to do because they aren't the ones having a stake at this.
• It is commendable that they address Mick with some fair play.

My overall opinion stays the same - This should be settled in private, fair off.

 

I think it is also noteworthy that Bethesda/Zenimax are replying here, and not Marty himself. As we now know from Mick's rebuttal, Bethesda/Zenimax have been more flexible in communication than Mick has accused Marty of not doing.

1 minute ago, Doomkid said:

Marty: Smears the fuck out of Mick and trashes his working reputation

 

Mick: Smears Marty back and also trashes his working reputation (as most people would)

 

Marty:

Proper use of the Surprised Pikachu meme. Never thought i would see the day.

[ZethXM]

Bethesda lent Mick Gordon further credibility in presenting that empty-handed threat.  If they feel this isn't a matter for the public, they should have spoke up when Marty went to Reddit as the sole means of public outreach to clarify a matter of public concern.

Edited November 17, 2022 by ZethXM