Mick Gordon unlikely to work on another Doom game after Eternal’s OST release

[indigotyrian]

9 hours ago, chemo said:

I think it's possible that he just didn't know any better at the time. I'm not accusing him of malicious intent, I was explaining why someone may think he had.

 

I could believe that if you didn't immediately follow up with "so that's why I don't think Mick Gordon was very professional." You preface with "well, this is how somebody could think," then end with a clause saying "therefore, that's what I believe." As it stands your statement feels deliberately wishy-washy.

 

All of this is in service of the claim that Mick Gordon's alleged "unprofessional behavior" is somehow a point against him in this regard. The actual, correct answer to this is so fucking what? Gordon, on top of what id did to him, was the target of a harassment campaign that Marty Stratton himself started when he made a shitty post on Reddit smearing Gordon's name. Why is the onus on Gordon to behave with decorum and etiquette here? Why are we expecting a man who got ripped off, exploited, and smeared by a huge company to be polite in his assertion that he be treated with dignity and respect? What, are we supposed to wag our fingers and go "ah-ah-ah, you weren't seeking restitution the right way, so now we're going to bury you?" Fuck that noise.

[chemo]

5 hours ago, segfault said:

 

I could believe that if you didn't immediately follow up with "so that's why I don't think Mick Gordon was very professional." You preface with "well, this is how somebody could think," then end with a clause saying "therefore, that's what I believe." As it stands your statement feels deliberately wishy-washy.

 

All of this is in service of the claim that Mick Gordon's alleged "unprofessional behavior" is somehow a point against him in this regard. The actual, correct answer to this is so fucking what? Gordon, on top of what id did to him, was the target of a harassment campaign that Marty Stratton himself started when he made a shitty post on Reddit smearing Gordon's name. Why is the onus on Gordon to behave with decorum and etiquette here? Why are we expecting a man who got ripped off, exploited, and smeared by a huge company to be polite in his assertion that he be treated with dignity and respect? What, are we supposed to wag our fingers and go "ah-ah-ah, you weren't seeking restitution the right way, so now we're going to bury you?" Fuck that noise. 

I'm not equating the lack of professionalism with malice. I think he should've handled the situation better, but that doesn't prove an intent to harm. Admittedly I realize how some of my wording might've made you think my opinion is something different, but that's not what I was trying to convey.

 

I do think it is most appropriate to approach such a situation with greater courtesy, even under such mistreatment. By doing so, you retain credibility, third-parties have a harder time weaponizing your statements for unsavory means, and the other side will have a more difficult time using your statements against you. I don't think it's unreasonable to express skepticism against those who neglect such an approach, as it can be interpreted as a lack of honesty, but the claims made shouldn't be dismissed, either. And just to clarify, I was specifically talking about Mick's comments made before Marty released his Reddit post.

 

Like what? Is having a neutral viewpoint on this subject just not possible like what I'm trying to do? Come on, man.

Edited November 20, 2022 by chemo

[indigotyrian]

1 minute ago, chemo said:

Like what? Is having a neutral viewpoint here just not possible like what I'm trying to do? Come on, man.

 

Right now one side is saying "this company and this executive specifically has fucked me over in numerous ways, the specifics of which I have detailed exhaustively in this essay. Here are screencaps and transcripts of conversations, details regarding my contract, and a technical explanation of exactly how I got shafted." and the other side is saying "nuh-uh, and also they're harassing us." Both-sidesing this shit just looks really weird.

[chemo]

14 minutes ago, segfault said:

 

Right now one side is saying "this company and this executive specifically has fucked me over in numerous ways, the specifics of which I have detailed exhaustively in this essay. Here are screencaps and transcripts of conversations, details regarding my contract, and a technical explanation of exactly how I got shafted." and the other side is saying "nuh-uh, and also they're harassing us." Both-sidesing this shit just looks really weird.

Yeah, that's how it is right now. I want to see how the situation develops before jumping to conclusions. Like other posts above have stated, it's probably in Bethesda's best interest to keep counter-evidence under wraps until they can present it in a more appropriate setting, such as in court. Of course it's possible that they're bullshitting (I'm not so keen on their recent tweet, myself), but I don't consider that 100% conclusive.

[indigotyrian]

34 minutes ago, chemo said:

Yeah, that's how it is right now. I want to see how the situation develops before jumping to conclusions. Like other posts above have stated, it's probably in Bethesda's best interest to keep counter-evidence under wraps until they can present it in a more appropriate setting, such as in court. Of course it's possible that they're bullshitting (I'm not so keen on their recent tweet, myself), but I don't consider that 100% conclusive.

 

Good to remember that this started two years ago with the release of the official soundtrack. Stratton made an inflammatory Reddit post that sicced a bunch of nasty people in Gordon's direction. Gordon let the fire die down and, two years later, posted a level-headed, detailed response explaining the situation. Bethesda's reaction to Gordon was to deny, attack, and reverse the victim and offender. As far as I'm concerned, the situation's pretty well-developed.

 

Playing the enlightened centrist where there's zero difference between good and bad things may make you appear intelligent but I think anybody who actually has all the facts in front of them can see what's happened and what's currently happening. It'd take some pretty compelling counter-evidence for myself and others to change our minds, and while I'm not going to rule out anything I also don't think that it's at all likely. If I'm wrong, so be it. I can bear the terrible sin of being incorrect about something on the computer.

Edited November 21, 2022 by segfault

[Doomkid]

If after a world-famous project that I worked on was released, one of the main directors of said project smeared the fuck out of my name and my contribution to the project, making it substantially harder for me to find more work after I'd already been treated like shit with regularity by the company in question, I'd be pretty unhappy.

 

I might not have kept it to a few vague/snippy tweets and waited two whole years til I got all my ducks in a row to defend myself from the unprofessional, unwarranted, and uncalled for smearing of my name before the court of public opinion.

 

The fact that anyone can see the original smear campaign from Marty on Reddit, followed up by Bethesda's cold and aggressive recent tweet, and think this behavior is anywhere in the realm of appropriate -- even if ALL the claims they made are true -- that either speaks poorly for their willingness to stand up for an artist in the face of a giant monolithic corporation with infinity lawyers, or speaks poorly for their willingness/ability to sort out internal conflicts, well, internally, an absolutely crucial skill in this field.

 

Taking this to the public like Marty did should have instantly made him persona non grata in the world of game development for the next few decades. This is literally "What NOT to do 101".

[Murdoch]

Bethesda will not release anything because their lawyers will be advising them not to. This is almost certainly going to result in some form of legal action from one or both parties, so information leaking to the public is not helpful. 

[TheFocus]

Hugo was always more likable anyway.

[magicsofa]

4 hours ago, Doomkid said:

Taking this to the public like Marty did should have instantly made him persona non grata in the world of game development for the next few decades. This is literally "What NOT to do 101".

 

I don't know, if I had signed a Zenimax contract I'd be afraid to speak out too.

 

It wasn't totally clear but it sounded like he knew about the other OST that was used after they pretended they weren't going to release it. If that's true, he shouldn't have signed on for another project. But he probably thought, eh, it's a totally different team, that was just an anomaly...

[MrHofmann]

On 11/21/2022 at 12:13 AM, chemo said:

I'm not equating the lack of professionalism with malice. I think he should've handled the situation better, but that doesn't prove an intent to harm. Admittedly I realize how some of my wording might've made you think my opinion is something different, but that's not what I was trying to convey.

 

I do think it is most appropriate to approach such a situation with greater courtesy, even under such mistreatment. By doing so, you retain credibility, third-parties have a harder time weaponizing your statements for unsavory means, and the other side will have a more difficult time using your statements against you. I don't think it's unreasonable to express skepticism against those who neglect such an approach, as it can be interpreted as a lack of honesty, but the claims made shouldn't be dismissed, either. And just to clarify, I was specifically talking about Mick's comments made before Marty released his Reddit post.

 

Like what? Is having a neutral viewpoint on this subject just not possible like what I'm trying to do? Come on, man.

100% this.

 

On 11/21/2022 at 1:15 AM, segfault said:

Good to remember that this started two years ago with the release of the official soundtrack. Stratton made an inflammatory Reddit post that sicced a bunch of nasty people in Gordon's direction.

Wrong. It started before that, with Mick's passive aggressive tweets. Marty's letter was posted in defense of Chad and the rest of id, because Mick's tweets (unintentionally) incited a mob against them. It wasn't an attack on Gordon.

 

On 11/21/2022 at 1:15 AM, segfault said:

Gordon let the fire die down and, two years later, posted a level-headed, detailed response explaining the situation. Bethesda's reaction to Gordon was to deny, attack, and reverse the victim and offender. As far as I'm concerned, the situation's pretty well-developed.

 

And what makes you so sure it is not the other way around? Mick's initial tweets could be interpreted as pretty toxic to begin with. I'm not saying it certainly is, but only that there might be a possibility.
 

On 11/21/2022 at 1:28 AM, Doomkid said:

If after a world-famous project that I worked on was released, one of the main directors of said project smeared the fuck out of my name and my contribution to the project, making it substantially harder for me to find more work after I'd already been treated like shit with regularity by the company in question, I'd be pretty unhappy.

 

I might not have kept it to a few vague/snippy tweets and waited two whole years til I got all my ducks in a row to defend myself from the unprofessional, unwarranted, and uncalled for smearing of my name before the court of public opinion.

 

The fact that anyone can see the original smear campaign from Marty on Reddit, followed up by Bethesda's cold and aggressive recent tweet, and think this behavior is anywhere in the realm of appropriate -- even if ALL the claims they made are true -- that either speaks poorly for their willingness to stand up for an artist in the face of a giant monolithic corporation with infinity lawyers, or speaks poorly for their willingness/ability to sort out internal conflicts, well, internally, an absolutely crucial skill in this field.

 

Taking this to the public like Marty did should have instantly made him persona non grata in the world of game development for the next few decades. This is literally "What NOT to do 101".

 

Still not seeing how you guys can pick sides in this one. I mean Bethesda/id did not provide any evidence, which is reasonable. But Mick's "evidence" is either weak or non-existent as well. For example:

• "3a. The actual deadline: Marty claims we signed the contract in “January”, and the deadline was “early March”. But that’s a total lie." This is false. Marty never said in the post that they signed a contract, but only that they reached a general agreement in January. Marty said: "After discussions with Mick in January of this year, we reached general agreement on the terms for Mick to deliver the OST by early March".
• Many accusations against Marty lack evidence. No emails, no audio. There is a screenshot of Skype call without a date. Like what the fuck?
• "Marty justifies crediting Chad as a co-artist on the album (which I disagree with) by saying it was the fair thing to do." Is Mick deliberately misunderstanding Marty here? Marty is basically saying that they wanted to make sure that the poorly edited tracks are not confused with Mick's work. Marty said: "Finally, Mick was concerned that we’d given Chad co-composer credit – which we did not do and would never have done. In the metadata, Mick is listed as the sole composer and sole album artist. On tracks edited by id, Chad is listed as a contributing artist. That was the best option to clearly delineate for fans which tracks Mick delivered and which tracks id’s Lead Audio Designer had edited. It would have been misleading for us to attribute tracks solely to Mick that someone else had edited."

 

This drama doesn't make sense anymore.

Edited November 22, 2022 by MrHofmann

[Herr Dethnout]

On 11/20/2022 at 9:12 PM, Murdoch said:

Bethesda will not release anything because their lawyers will be advising them not to. This is almost certainly going to result in some form of legal action from one or both parties, so information leaking to the public is not helpful. 

Yup, thats something people doesn't seem to understand when started mocking the Tweet from Bethesda. The difference between Bethesda/id and Mick is that the former is a multi-billonarie company with a full legal department and they will not releasing any information that can potentially harm his own workers, even if they want, the lawyers will not permit to let it happen.

If the Marty's letter is real, then he do it by his own, without any bethesda/id approval (I doubt that they will even let him do something like that).

[Doomkid]

1 hour ago, MrHofmann said:

Still not seeing how you guys can pick sides in this one.

I'm picking the "side" of rationality and existing in reality rather than a fantasy land. Regardless of what went down, bringing this before the court of public opinion was thoroughly wrong and instantly takes any wind out of your sails that may have potentially been there. Marty and Bethesda were the ones who opened that door, not Mick.

 

That's all there is to it.

[Redneckerz]

18 hours ago, Doomkid said:

I'm picking the "side" of rationality and existing in reality rather than a fantasy land. Regardless of what went down, bringing this before the court of public opinion was thoroughly wrong and instantly takes any wind out of your sails that may have potentially been there. Marty and Bethesda were the ones who opened that door, not Mick.

 

That's all there is to it.

Let alone that Marty suddenly pops up on Reddit to do a bidding.

 

I understand Mick's hands were tied in going public, and preferably would have settled without the internet. In doing so, Mick did forget some rules that are on said internet, despite the huge disclaimer made beforehand.

 

All in all, this entire ordeal is a rare insight into how game companies and their ire can and will work, but it is not necessarily an insight that the public, especially a public that has taken more and more from social media activism, should have. Everything can and will be weaponized and sadly this was no exception.

[LadyMistDragon]

On 11/22/2022 at 2:06 PM, MrHofmann said:

stuff

 

This drama doesn't make sense anymore.

 

 

You sound like someone who either has held a similar management position to Marty or know someone else who has held said position. But neither side has really provided airtight evidence for either of their claims, possibly because it's not legally advisable. Yes, Mick's case isn't quite airtight, but I don't think that's any reason to think he's lying which you basically seem to be assuming without explicitly saying it. While there are definitely spots where he's obviously giving his perspective on how everything played out, Bethesda ultimately looks worst here and not just because that's what he's saying. I don't think grudges against Mick at id software were seriously responsible for the state of the OST which is a view that has been pushed but the fact remains that he was treated far too much like an employee and not like a contracted worked, even if Mick was not technically contracted. It's clear how he saw his relationship with id software.

 

I do have to agree with your opinion the treatment of Chad Mossholder though. The guy obviously was more of a sound than an audio person and thusly, shouldn't necessarily be expected to do a bang-up job with the remastering. Yet, Mick did sort of speak of him like he was Marty's gremlin or something when there's no evidence he was anything but an employee

Edited November 25, 2022 by LadyMistDragon

[7Mahonin]

I know everyone is going on and on about this one way or another and they're entitled to how they feel, but for me personally this is a situation I am going to wait for the end result to make judgement. I'd hate to spew a bunch of BS one way or another just to find out I was talking out of my ass, and at the moment either "side" could be the ass-talk spewers. It's not like I was there at Id when all of this went down to know the full story anyways.

[Murdoch]

1 hour ago, 7Mahonin said:

I know everyone is going on and on about this one way or another and they're entitled to how they feel, but for me personally this is a situation I am going to wait for the end result to make judgement. I'd hate to spew a bunch of BS one way or another just to find out I was talking out of my ass, and at the moment either "side" could be the ass-talk spewers. It's not like I was there at Id when all of this went down to know the full story anyways.

 

Exactly. These situations are complicated. Without full knowledge of the evidence from both sides, forming a truly accurate opinion is impossible.

[HalfLife9000]

12 hours ago, 7Mahonin said:

I know everyone is going on and on about this one way or another and they're entitled to how they feel, but for me personally this is a situation I am going to wait for the end result to make judgement. I'd hate to spew a bunch of BS one way or another just to find out I was talking out of my ass, and at the moment either "side" could be the ass-talk spewers. It's not like I was there at Id when all of this went down to know the full story anyways.

Probably the best route that you can take with this whole scandal thing going on

[StalkerBlade]

I'm going to refrain from definitively taking sides, but at this moment, I'm leaning more towards Mick Gordon receiving the worst end.

 

My reason is because after looking back at his lengthy list of works for many other past titles, it's evident that he's fully capable of completing a soundtrack for a triple A standard game. id software however, have had a very slow rate of games released over the past decade, and it's fairly common knowledge that they struggled with the Doom games since after the release of Doom 2 for a long while. For me personally, seeing as how Mick Gordon has completed so many titles at a near yearly rate sort of tells me that he's able to work with other companies and complete the projects with no issues. When it comes to id, I can't exactly say the same since the only major releases they have completed in the last decade have been either Rage, Doom or Quake. Mick Gordon also provided a form of proof...I know the other side claimed they had proof, but, y'know...it'd be nice to actually see it. If and when counter proof is provided, I'll change my mind.

 

I'm not too big on the music in the newer Doom games, but if it's true that id is royally screwing over a musician in order to half-pay for the music they received, then shame on them. I've been around musicians my entire life and it's more common than one would think for them to get plowed over when doing work for a much larger company than themselves.

[MrHofmann]

On 11/23/2022 at 12:33 AM, Doomkid said:

I'm picking the "side" of rationality

 

Not sure if deliberately ignoring context from before Marty's letter is considered rational, but if you only count the official addressing to the public, then yes, it started off with Marty.

 

On 11/24/2022 at 6:07 PM, LadyMistDragon said:

 

 

You sound like someone who either has held a similar management position to Marty or know someone else who has held said position. But neither side has really provided airtight evidence for either of their claims, possibly because it's not legally advisable. Yes, Mick's case isn't quite airtight, but I don't think that's any reason to think he's lying which you basically seem to be assuming without explicitly saying it.

 

 

I just literally wrote in my previous post that there might be a possibility that Mick is lying, not that he certainly is. I'm not assuming anything. The point that I'm arguing is that based on the "evidence" provided you can't tell which side is lying, or whether either of them is lying at all, but the majority of the internet seems to have settled that Marty is the lying one just because Mick said so.

 

On 11/24/2022 at 7:09 PM, 7Mahonin said:

I know everyone is going on and on about this one way or another and they're entitled to how they feel, but for me personally this is a situation I am going to wait for the end result to make judgement. I'd hate to spew a bunch of BS one way or another just to find out I was talking out of my ass, and at the moment either "side" could be the ass-talk spewers. It's not like I was there at Id when all of this went down to know the full story anyways.

 

Exactly.

[indigotyrian]

On 11/30/2022 at 10:10 AM, MrHofmann said:

Not sure if deliberately ignoring context from before Marty's letter is considered rational, but if you only count the official addressing to the public, then yes, it started off with Marty.

 

The "context" where Mick just said he didn't work on the soundtrack and didn't think it was very good quality? You mean that context?

 

Oh, my apologies! It's totally obvious now that Marty Stratton was well within his rights to whip up a bunch of redditors into an outraged mob and dogpile one of his former workers!

[Herr Dethnout]

On 11/30/2022 at 11:10 AM, MrHofmann said:

I just literally wrote in my previous post that there might be a possibility that Mick is lying, not that he certainly is. I'm not assuming anything. The point that I'm arguing is that based on the "evidence" provided you can't tell which side is lying, or whether either of them is lying at all, but the majority of the internet seems to have settled that Marty is the lying one just because Mick said so.

TBH I don't think that both sides are lying, but is obvious that nobody wants to take the blame for this, so both sides are talking is version of the story where is obvious that they doesn't want to look like the "villain". Giving the record of id with his composers (ejem... Trent Reznor) and even his own workers (Gee McAmerican :P), and the record of Mick as being a professional worker, it seems that his version is more credible (not to mention that BIG wall of text that he made in Medium). So even I want to keep neutral about this, I'm tend to believe more to Mick than id/Bethesda.

[Caffeine Freak]

18 hours ago, Herr Dethnout said:

Giving the record of id with his composers (ejem... Trent Reznor)

 

Has there ever been any documentation or disclosure on what happened with Trent during Doom 3? The only thing I remember is Tim Willits saying that they were never able to reach any sort of contractual agreement with him. IIRC he did a bunch of sounds for Doom 3 but dropped out very early on in development.

[Bucket]

18 hours ago, Herr Dethnout said:

, I'm tend to believe more to Mick than id/Bethesda.

 

Imagine if all of us tended to side with the worker over the company - the occasional opportunist would be infinitely preferable to what we deal with now.

[Eurisko]

This shit could go tit for tat for a long time.

 

I'm gonna just take the stance of that we will never know fully what the situation was so just enjoy Doom.

[MrHofmann]

On 12/2/2022 at 2:10 AM, segfault said:

 

The "context" where Mick just said he didn't work on the soundtrack and didn't think it was very good quality? You mean that context?

 

Oh, my apologies! It's totally obvious now that Marty Stratton was well within his rights to whip up a bunch of redditors into an outraged mob and dogpile one of his former workers!

 

No. The context where Mick unintentionally incited a mob against Chad AND THEN DIDN'T GIVE A SHIT ABOUT IT. Yes, Mick first said that a number of tracks were poorly mixed and that he didn't do that. He should have left it at that, but he went on with "doubt we'll work together again" tweets, which implied they screwed him over the OST. Not saying he deliberately riled up fans, but he could have at least said something like "guys chill out, Chad is a good guy", but he didn't.

 

Not to mention slandering (by implication) the company/client you had business with. You just don't do that publicly and expect the other side to remain silent, not even in self defense. Of course Marty is going to defend Chad and the rest of id, which again, unintentionally redirected the mob back towards Gordon. This is were Mick perceived Marty's letter as an attack on him, which obviously isn't if you consider the context before.

 

On 12/2/2022 at 3:42 AM, Herr Dethnout said:

TBH I don't think that both sides are lying, but is obvious that nobody wants to take the blame for this, so both sides are talking is version of the story where is obvious that they doesn't want to look like the "villain". Giving the record of id with his composers (ejem... Trent Reznor) and even his own workers (Gee McAmerican :P), and the record of Mick as being a professional worker, it seems that his version is more credible (not to mention that BIG wall of text that he made in Medium). So even I want to keep neutral about this, I'm tend to believe more to Mick than id/Bethesda.

 

I don't think either side is lying or malicious. It's just a lot of miscommunication and misunderstanding took place, especially because they were apart across half the globe.

 

Basically what you are saying is because old id (likely not related to new id) made mistakes in the past and because it is not known whether Mick made mistakes until now, it is safe to lean towards Mick being right. I don't think so.

 

6 hours ago, Eurisko said:

This shit could go tit for tat for a long time.

 

I'm gonna just take the stance of that we will never know fully what the situation was so just enjoy Doom.

 

Exactly. We love both Mick and Marty and the work they did on Doom.

[indigotyrian]

1 hour ago, MrHofmann said:

No. The context where Mick unintentionally incited a mob against Chad AND THEN DIDN'T GIVE A SHIT ABOUT IT. Yes, Mick first said that a number of tracks were poorly mixed and that he didn't do that. He should have left it at that, but he went on with "doubt we'll work together again" tweets, which implied they screwed him over the OST. Not saying he deliberately riled up fans, but he could have at least said something like "guys chill out, Chad is a good guy", but he didn't.

 

Please post the inciting tweets from Mick Gordon.

 

Quote

Not to mention slandering (by implication) the company/client you had business with. You just don't do that publicly and expect the other side to remain silent, not even in self defense. Of course Marty is going to defend Chad and the rest of id, which again, unintentionally redirected the mob back towards Gordon. This is were Mick perceived Marty's letter as an attack on him, which obviously isn't if you consider the context before.

 

Please post the tweets where Mick Gordon slandered id.

[Faceman2000]

Y’all are devoting an undue amount of energy to this argument.

[MrHofmann]

21 minutes ago, segfault said:

 

Please post the inciting tweets from Mick Gordon.

 

 

Please post the tweets where Mick Gordon slandered id.

Why? Aren't they widely known by now? Just google them.

[indigotyrian]

2 minutes ago, MrHofmann said:

Why? Aren't they widely known by now? Just google them.

 

Which makes it quite easy for you to share your evidence, doesn't it? You made the claims, you ought to back them up.

[MrHofmann]

Sorry, I'm not doing your research for you.

 

Asking for evidence of that is like asking for evidence of the existence of the Moon. Why?

Edited December 4, 2022 by MrHofmann