Mick Gordon unlikely to work on another Doom game after Eternal’s OST release

[indigotyrian]

17 minutes ago, MrHofmann said:

Sorry, I'm not doing your research for you.

 

Asking for evidence of that is like asking for evidence of the existence of the Moon. Why?

 

You can't just say things like "Mick incited a hate mob" or "Mick slandered id" without actually pointing to Mick inciting a hate mob or Mick slandering id. If you want people to take you seriously you need to back up your claims. Otherwise you come across as another person who is using the guise of "well, both sides have a story" to cover up the very real abuse and mistreatment Mick faced while working on Doom Eternal.

[MrHofmann]

32 minutes ago, segfault said:

 

You can't just say things like "Mick incited a hate mob" or "Mick slandered id" without actually pointing to Mick inciting a hate mob or Mick slandering id. If you want people to take you seriously you need to back up your claims. Otherwise you come across as another person who is using the guise of "well, both sides have a story" to cover up the very real abuse and mistreatment Mick faced while working on Doom Eternal.

 

1. As I said, I will not prove the existence of the Moon.

2. I did not say "Mick incited a hate mob" or "Mick slandered id". I said Mick unintentionally incited a hate mob and Mick slandered id by implication.

3. I'm not arguing that there are two sides (or three) of the story. There is only the truth.

4. Where is your evidence that Mick was mistreated while working on Doom Eternal?

5. If you want people to take you seriously you should do your own research, instead of expecting others to do it for you.

[Liberation]

That's enough, thank you.

[indigotyrian]

mick gordon started the entire affair by saying mean words about a company that dicked him over for a year straight so really its his fault this is happening. no i will not post any evidence corroborating this. you will need to prove my own statements. thank you.

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

11 minutes ago, Liberation said:

That's enough, thank you.

In my opinion (feel free to disregard) threads like this that revolve around community drama serve no purpose here and are more appropriate for Twitter or Reddit. The little bit of discussion to be had is not worth the inevitable shitflinging between members. I think most members here enjoy spending time on Doomworld for the friendly atmosphere, and "discussions" like this are a real buzzkill. It's no different than a political thread - there's nothing to be gained, only two sides throwing rocks at each other (for no reason, because nobody is going to change their opinion because of someone else - just like politics). Personally, it doesn't bother me because I don't engage in this kind of stuff, but I wouldn't have a problem with drama threads not being allowed. I don't think it does the community any good, they can get this news elsewhere, and argue about it elsewhere.

[Chezza]

Let's settle this once and for all. I shall consult the bones.

 

*shakes cup of chicken bones and throws on to ground*

 

The bones say... nothing.

[Rudolph]

Well, regardless, I am glad to hear that Mick Gordon is still getting work in the industry.

 

I still do not know what to make of Atomic Heart, but I can only hope that it was a better experience for him than with Doom Eternal.

Edited December 4, 2022 by Rudolph

[Urthar]

1 hour ago, Rudolph said:

Well, regardless, I am glad to hear that Mick Gordon is still getting work in the industry.

 

 I imagine he'll do alright, the majority of people who have read his statement seem sympathetic to his point of view. I understand the composer of Halo, who's well connected and has had litigatious experiences of his own, has been in touch with him.

[Rudolph]

Composers of the world, unite!

[Kyka]

Musicians are pathologically undervalued, and have been since the late 80's. That said, the modern internet and places like patreon/youtube/supportstar etc etc as well as streaming services are making it easier for musical creators to at least earn a professional living from their art. I think this is a beautiful thing, though even there, spotify pays virtually nothing, and major corporations still tend to own things they had no hand in making.

 

To the matter at hand:

 

I don't believe that Mick's initial comments "They weren't done by me" and "Doubt we will work together again" constitute any form of justification for the absolute s***storm that Marty began after that. To put it another way, it would be like a guy says in a restaurant review "The soup was slightly cold," and the restaurant posts a letter that names him as a nazi pedophile drug dealer serial killer, and also releases his name and address for good measure. The cause, in no way, justifies the response. If anything, given how badly Mick was treated, his responses after the release of Doom Eternal were understated and very generalised. Marty, perhaps under advisement from Bethesda higher ups and/or lawyers, produced what I consider to be a massive overreaction of self protectiveness and legal obfuscation, to Micks comments.

Edited December 5, 2022 by Kyka

[xdarkmasterx]

23 hours ago, Faceman2000 said:

Y’all are devoting an undue amount of energy to this argument.

 

If writing forum posts takes you that much energy I reccommend a better cardio routine.

[Kyka]

Being invested in something that has nothing to do with me burns a surprising number of calories.

 

And if you believe that, I would like to introduce you to some sexy singles in your area.

[Faceman2000]

28 minutes ago, xdarkmasterx said:

 

If writing forum posts takes you that much energy I reccommend a better cardio routine.

*Sigh*
 

Fine, I’ll take the bait.

 

First off, I was referring to emotional energy more than physical, but even then…

 

“undue amount of energy” doesn’t imply a large amount of energy, it is simply a greater quantity of energy than a situation merits. For example, this message required very little physical energy from me, but really ANY energy spent defending myself in response to your admittedly quite funny comment is too much. Thusly, this message represents an undue amount of energy spent on my behalf, and if you’ve finished reading all this, on your behalf as well. ;)

[Kyka]

1 minute ago, Faceman2000 said:

*Sigh*
 

Fine, I’ll take the bait.

 

First off, I was referring to emotional energy more than physical, but even then…

 

“undue amount of energy” doesn’t imply a large amount of energy, it is simply a greater quantity of energy than a situation merits. For example, this message required very little physical energy from me, but really ANY energy spent defending myself in response to your admittedly quite funny comment is too much. Thusly, this message represents an undue amount of energy spent on my behalf, and if you’ve finished reading all this, on your behalf as well. ;)

 

I didn't read your post because I am on a diet.

 

But if I had read it, I would have said that it was well written and makes a fair point.

[Bucket]

I CARE SO LITTLE ABOUT THIS TOPIC THAT I NEED TO WRITE A POST ABOUT HOW YOU ALL CARE TOO MUCH ABOUT THIS TOPIC. CAN EVERYONE HEAR ME? YOU SHOULD ALL BE LIKE ME AND CARE AS LITTLE AS I DO. TO PROPERLY ILLUSTRATE WHAT NOT CARING SHOULD LOOK LIKE, I WILL WRITE A FEW MORE PARAGRAPHS CLARIFYING MY POSITION

[esselfortium]

I removed some spammy image replies from this thread. Please refrain from doing that.

[Redneckerz]

23 hours ago, TheMagicMushroomMan said:

In my opinion (feel free to disregard) threads like this that revolve around community drama serve no purpose here and are more appropriate for Twitter or Reddit. The little bit of discussion to be had is not worth the inevitable shitflinging between members. I think most members here enjoy spending time on Doomworld for the friendly atmosphere, and "discussions" like this are a real buzzkill.

The only solution to this is to listen to BFG Division once again. The ultimate audible problem solver.

 

To add to what has been said: The fact that since both sides aired their words, not much has come out publically - That is, absolutely nothing. So this either means:

• It is resolved behind the curtain
• It isn't resolved but not aired publically
• Both sides are playing Knee-Deep in Knee Deep in ZDoom and forgot what the argument was about

So nothing is to be gained.

 

2 hours ago, xdarkmasterx said:

If writing forum posts takes you that much energy I reccommend a better cardio routine.

Hah! I am glad we can still have these wonderful zingers here.

 

38 minutes ago, esselfortium said:

I removed some spammy image replies from this thread. Please refrain from doing that.

Unlesss..... they are from KDIKDIZD.

 

Spoiler

 

Both sides need reflection. ;)

[MrHofmann]

2 hours ago, Kyka said:

I don't believe that Mick's initial comments "They weren't done by me" and "Doubt we will work together again" constitute any form of justification for the absolute s***storm that Marty began after that. To put it another way, it would be like a guy says in a restaurant review "The soup was slightly cold," and the restaurant posts a letter that names him as a nazi pedophile drug dealer serial killer, and also releases his name and address for good measure. The cause, in no way, justifies the response. If anything, given how badly Mick was treated, his responses after the release of Doom Eternal were understated and very generalised. Marty, perhaps under advisement from Bethesda higher ups and/or lawyers, produced what I consider to be a massive overreaction of self protectiveness and legal obfuscation, to Micks comments.

 

Some facts:

 

1. Marty's response was not a shitstorm and was not an attack on Mick. It was a thoughtfully and comprehensively written letter for the community.

2. The letter was not a response to Mick's comments, but an attempt to calm the community for giving Chad and the rest of id a hard time because of Mick's comments.

3. It is not either Mick's or Marty's fault this shit happened. It is the community's fault for overreacting.

5. There are no sides. We are all on the same side.

[LadyMistDragon]

4 hours ago, MrHofmann said:

 

 

5. There are no sides. We are all on the same side.

That may well be true but with the way you framed your initial post, it's not really hard to see why it might seem like you were looking to blame Mick mainly.

[Man of Doom]

Since I’m already so fucking tired of everything that’s come out since then, I might as well drop some miscellaneous thoughts here.

 

 

In light of Mick’s recent exposé followed by Bethesda’s response, there’s been quite a few reactions (not here specifically, moreso the general internet and not just Reddit):

 

-all future/current id titles should not only be boycotted, all Bethesda titles should be boycotted as well

-Mick should never step foot near another Bethesda title ever again and should only stick to indie titles

-all ZeniMax is going to do is just throw a bone to make the masses forget about the entire controversy (case in point, the Slayer in Fortnite)

-id Software/Bethesda is officially just as bad as Activision/Blizzard

-the Doom franchise should be now taken behind the shed Old Yeller-style (and nuDoom should be 100% retconned out of existence like it all never ever ever ever happened and also Doom Eternal in particular should be treated as that franchise’s own Duke Nukem Forever until the heat death of the universe)

 

I’m not even going to get into the various responses regarding Marty himself.

 

I know these are likely very much reactions more than well-structured thoughts (and I totally understand, I’ve been there myself), but I can’t help but feel like that while most of them do come from a well-intentioned place, it doesn’t quite feel fully respectful to Mick himself or his wishes.

 

In his response (and later on social media), Mick had made it perfectly clear that aside from Marty (whom he wants absolutely nothing to do with), he holds no ill will towards anyone else at id.

Additionally, he even went out of his way to repeatedly state that attacking Doom Eternal won’t do any good at all (either by review-bombing the game or harassing anyone involved in the development of the base game or expansions), and that id’s work is to still be respected and appreciated regardless because it’s a product shaped by passionate people who had absolutely nothing to do with all of this (and are likely very passionate fans of the Doom franchise themselves).

 

And he’s right.

 

On top of having all the patience and forgiveness of a full-blown saint given everything that’s happened.

 

I mean, he still regularly shares Doom Eternal memes via social media pages (specifically his Instagram) so he’s still clearly very proud of how his work came out in the end.

 

What happened is nothing like the developments at Activision or Blizzard, where there were multiple instances of outright sickening behavior perpetrated and egged on by entire echelons of higher-ups.

 

Shit, not even the indie game industry is safe from the possibility of having abusers or predators.

 

And on the other hand, Marty Stratton is not id Software.

Neither is Hugo Martin, Tim Willits, John Carmack, Todd Hollenshead, or John Romero.

 

id Software is just that: a company with employees.

 

Employees who really did have no knowledge of was going on, let alone had anything to do with it.

 

 

And lastly, given the accusations of Mick somehow inciting the Internet Hate Machine intentionally or unintentionally:

 

Hmm, could it be possible that Mick could have been not only under a NDA, he also had to distance himself from the internet entirely because he ended up on the receiving end of multiple death threats, some of which got really fucking scary and outright graphic?

Edited December 7, 2022 by Man of Doom

[Rudolph]

On 12/6/2022 at 6:55 PM, Man of Doom said:

1-all future/current id titles should not only be boycotted, all Bethesda titles should be boycotted as well

2-Mick should never step foot near another Bethesda title ever again and should only stick to indie titles

3-all ZeniMax is going to do is just throw a bone to make the masses forget about the entire controversy (case in point, the Slayer in Fortnite)

4-id Software/Bethesda is officially just as bad as Activision/Blizzard

5-the Doom franchise should be now taken behind the shed Old Yeller-style (and nuDoom should be 100% retconned out of existence like it all never ever ever ever happened and also Doom Eternal in particular should be treated as that franchise’s own Duke Nukem Forever until the heat death of the universe)

I agree with points 2, 3 and 4, but the rest sounds a bit... excessive?

 

I mean, they are basically asking people on Doom forums to stop playing Doom. :S

Edited December 8, 2022 by Rudolph

[D4NUK1]

As a fan of NuDOOM tittles, i'm against any public type of "Boycott" because, Doom Eternal it's not only a game made by his OST, o by a Director (im sure anybody with a  high quality on iD Software could be a director), they are made with a lot of people imput on mind, the game feel, the animations, the art direction, the game progression, everything it's the doing of multiple ideas and peoples.

 

Going the route of hate and creating a problem where it's just a legal dispute at the moment, will create the same problem that made a lot's of fans create Hate messages to him. Hate it's hate and will make you something same as the haters of Mick, even if going with death treats it's INHUMANE, people will do it if there a reason to (That would be a public boycott, they hurt their gaming feelings, they screwed the "history" and many reasons more) that people will use as scrapegoat to send any type of hate.

 

Im understand if you want to put your desires to not buy anything new iDsoftware or Bethesda. But we need to stop the seed of "ordering" something as many people use this to echo chamber with a lot of empty trougths of young gamers, we see all the day with any "console wars" and it's just unhealthy and WILL NOT get anything to resolve bettewn the 2 subjects at hand (Mick Gordon, Marty, iDsoftware)

[Herr Dethnout]

2 hours ago, Rudolph said:

I agree with points 2, 3 and 4, but the rest sounds a bit... excessive?

 

I mean, you are basically asking people on a Doom forum to stop playing Doom. :S

I'm sure that it was a example of the reactions of the OST drama and not his actual opinion.

 

On 12/6/2022 at 7:55 PM, Man of Doom said:

In light of Mick’s recent exposé followed by Bethesda’s response, there’s been quite a few reactions (not here specifically, moreso the general internet and not just Reddit):

 

[Rudolph]

@Herr Dethnout Ah, crap. My bad. That'll teach me to skim through long comments. :S

 

I edited my post accordingly.

Edited December 8, 2022 by Rudolph

[D4NUK1]

The same for me, but my comentary was mostly for the peoples that will use this for weaponized commentary on the internet.

[MrHofmann]

On 12/6/2022 at 1:31 AM, LadyMistDragon said:

That may well be true but with the way you framed your initial post, it's not really hard to see why it might seem like you were looking to blame Mick mainly.

 

Maybe I have expressed myself poorly, English is not my native language. But I hope you get most of the points I am trying to make. I was only trying to shift the blame away from Marty a bit because the entire internet seems to be biased against him, because evil corporation bad by default. Also, I was trying to show that given the facts and lack of evidence you can make the case against Mick as well and therefore conclude that you can't really blame either Mick or Marty. But apparently the majority of the internet didn't even look critically at Mick's "evidence", the term they are all using is 14000 word (or whatever the number is) article, as if the length of the article in terms of number of words is some sort of metric for reliability.

 

On 12/7/2022 at 12:55 AM, Man of Doom said:

In light of Mick’s recent exposé followed by Bethesda’s response, there’s been quite a few reactions (not here specifically, moreso the general internet and not just Reddit):

 

-all future/current id titles should not only be boycotted, all Bethesda titles should be boycotted as well

-Mick should never step foot near another Bethesda title ever again and should only stick to indie titles

-all ZeniMax is going to do is just throw a bone to make the masses forget about the entire controversy (case in point, the Slayer in Fortnite)

-id Software/Bethesda is officially just as bad as Activision/Blizzard

-the Doom franchise should be now taken behind the shed Old Yeller-style (and nuDoom should be 100% retconned out of existence like it all never ever ever ever happened and also Doom Eternal in particular should be treated as that franchise’s own Duke Nukem Forever until the heat death of the universe)

 

I’m not even going to get into the various responses regarding Marty himself.

 

These people are tearing the community apart and should be called out. This is how you make developers not listen to the community anymore. No wonder games are cash grabbing shit and people don't get what they want for some time now. Also, influential people (e.g. youtubers) should learn to take the blame for the shit they are causing and learn to take some responsibility because they are influencing a lot of people. Instead they are the ones who immediately pick "sides" because they want to align themselves with the popular opinion so they don't ruin their stats on the platform.
 

On 12/7/2022 at 12:55 AM, Man of Doom said:

And lastly, given the accusations of Mick somehow inciting the Internet Hate Machine intentionally or unintentionally:

 

Hmm, could it be possible that Mick could have been not only under a NDA, he also had to distance himself from the internet entirely because he ended up on the receiving end of multiple death threats, some of which got really fucking scary and outright graphic?

 

It is true that Mick's comments cannot be classified as incitement, but you cannot deny the fact that they caused the initial shitstorm aimed at id. Of course I don't blame him for that. How could have he predicted the shit it caused? Tough I suspect he was fine with it because he did nothing to address the issue and at least try to fix shit. A simple "guys chill out, stop harassing Chad" would be enough and would certainly not be considered as breaching NDA. Just because Mick's actions were not malicious it does not mean that their consequences didn't happen. And if it affected id the way Marty said, then Marty did in fact respond appropriately.
 

On 12/7/2022 at 12:55 AM, Man of Doom said:

In his response (and later on social media), Mick had made it perfectly clear that aside from Marty (whom he wants absolutely nothing to do with), he holds no ill will towards anyone else at id.

Additionally, he even went out of his way to repeatedly state that attacking Doom Eternal won’t do any good at all (either by review-bombing the game or harassing anyone involved in the development of the base game or expansions), and that id’s work is to still be respected and appreciated regardless because it’s a product shaped by passionate people who had absolutely nothing to do with all of this (and are likely very passionate fans of the Doom franchise themselves).

 

Yes, this is his stance after his response, which was not that clear before he was called out. Again, I'm not arguing whether Mick is innocent or not, but only that Marty's actions are completely justified. But at the same time I understand why the majority can't seem to understand that. They are missing important details in the events of the entire situation, either intentionally or unintentionally, because of their bias towards Mick.

 

As far as I'm concerned, this entire thread can be purged. Nobody gains anything from this. It only contributes to the shitshow.

[LadyMistDragon]

1 hour ago, MrHofmann said:

 

 

As far as I'm concerned, this entire thread can be purged. Nobody gains anything from this. It only contributes to the shitshow.

And yet, you're posting a quite lengthy response to everyone and responded to everyone else who disagreed. idk, seems strangely hypocritical, could be wrong.

[MrHofmann]

9 minutes ago, LadyMistDragon said:

And yet, you're posting a quite lengthy response to everyone and responded to everyone else who disagreed. idk, seems strangely hypocritical, could be wrong.

 

Yes, you are wrong, but I understand why it might seem that way. It is not hypocritical because I'm not saying that I don't give shit and then post lengthy responses and neither am a moderator so I can't delete the thread. Also, my stance is neutral so my contribution to this shit is minimal. My criticism is aimed only at the community with the goal of reducing the division. I like Doomworld, I want it to remain peaceful.

[shadowrider78]

bruh I leave this thread for sometime because not much ends up happening and when I come back thinking that something interesting actually happened it turns out to be literally nothing.

[Faceman2000]

All the good stuff got deleted. :P